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No to the Boston fan part...if you knew what team I was a fan of you'd kick me out of this thread, so I guess I better make this count. I like the unloading they did, yes, but to me Victorino has always been a tad bit overrated, especially in the past three years. He's always been a product of his environment (always a good 4th or 5th guy in the lineup, never a standout). I just don't think those two signings do THAT much for them. And I really don't think the Farrell signing does much for them either. I will agree though, I like their young kids, I just think they should endure a couple of years of growth rather than waste money on those two. Just don't think those signings are the right fit for them. And I'm not a believer in Hamilton going to a team in turmoil. If anything he brings more turmoil, he's better suited in a team that is already set in stone as a contender or a slumper he can help turn around (Seattle?).
They signed Napoli and Victorino to ridiculous contracts and now they're after Dickey. I don't know if spending money on these kind of guys and trading half their minor league system for a 38 year old knuckleballer is in the Red Sox best interest right now.
Are those deals that ridiculous, though? Have you looked at the FA market recently? Any starting player with some redeeming quality is worth $10 million now.
They're basically making a gamble that Victorino (who has the potential to be a monster in Fenway) can get healthy and Napoli can revert to his 2011 form. Playing in that stadium it's not out of the question.
And they're not going after Dickey. They kicked the tires on a Cy Young winner, not the most outrageous play in the world. The Mets gave them their asking price (which is too high) and they walked away.
I realize you're probably a Yankee fan, but Boston made two solid, if unspectacular, moves.
I'm actually a huge Mets fan. I hate the Yankees and I'm indifferent towards Boston.
For a team with a very good shot in 2013, I don't think those deals are that ridiculous. Three years for Victorino and Napoli actually is pretty reasonable, I just think the money is a little high. However, with the Yankees, Orioles, Rays, and new-look Blue Jays, I just don't see how Boston is going to be a legitimate contender this year. I don't know if spending $40 million apiece on two 32 year old players is best for them given their current situation, although the contracts aren't that long.
We'll see, these moves may make Ben Cherington look like a genius in the next couple years.
The second part of that statement is why I think the deals don't make sense. How much of contenders are they really going to be in 2013? And yes, there would still be two years left on those deals, but I'd have to think the rest of that division is going to be pretty solid for those two years as well. A lot of youth in Baltimore and Tampa (still, somehow). And the Blue Jays have become legitimate spenders with the Yankees (though not quite up to that level). And btw for the Yanks' fans in this thread is the Hal budget level really going to happen?
No to the Boston fan part...if you knew what team I was a fan of you'd kick me out of this thread, so I guess I better make this count. I like the unloading they did, yes, but to me Victorino has always been a tad bit overrated, especially in the past three years. He's always been a product of his environment (always a good 4th or 5th guy in the lineup, never a standout). I just don't think those two signings do THAT much for them. And I really don't think the Farrell signing does much for them either. I will agree though, I like their young kids, I just think they should endure a couple of years of growth rather than waste money on those two. Just don't think those signings are the right fit for them. And I'm not a believer in Hamilton going to a team in turmoil. If anything he brings more turmoil, he's better suited in a team that is already set in stone as a contender or a slumper he can help turn around (Seattle?).
I actually agree with most of this, I just think those two signings doa little bit more for them than you do. I don't think those are primary pieces, those are only good if they're complementary. You can't build around Napoli/Victorino, but I could easily see those two hitting 55 combined home runs combined which, for $13 mil/each is pretty good (I realize I'm being incredibly over-simplistic here, but you get what I'm saying).
I don't think they should go after Hamilton, but Hamilton would just eviscerate baseballs up there. He can't lead the clubhouse, which is the biggest concern in Boston, so I agree it might be a bad idea for him to go there. I think Boston's pitching rebounds in a big way and they contend for a WC spot in 2013, so if that's the case then these signings were worthwhile. If they're the AL East's version of the Mets? Yeah, then those signings are terrible.
And you can tell me what team you root for, I only hate on Yankee/Braves/Phillies fans that irrationally hate on the Mets.
(This answer could be directed at Keystone as well)
Keystone, I genuinely thought you were a Yankees fan. As a fellow Mets fan, how excited are you that we currently have ONE outfielder on the roster? And keep in mind that it's Lucas Duda and he broke his wrist moving furniture last month.
When I scrolled over the thread I thought it said "No Cardinals fans allowed" so I got scared. A St. Louis fan from Chicago, it's a rough world out there for me. And I think we're in agreement about the Boston situation for the most part. I just know a Boston fan that was ECSTATIC about the signings, and I just thought, seriously? Not that huge for your team. Decent at best, but not huge.
Post by FatKeystone on Dec 6, 2012 18:27:58 GMT -5
Boston needs to overhaul their pitching staff this year to even consider contending. Except for maybe Lester, there is no one there that they can count on to even be decent. The bullpen needs work too. That's a lot to be done in one offseason, even two, and the combination of that and being in an absolutely stacked division doesn't bode well for the Sox.
That's why I thought their moves didn't make much sense. That's a lot of money to spend on one slightly above average player (Victorino) and one injury-prone catcher/1B (Napoli) when your pitching staff needs so much work.
The red sox have done what they had to do in a weak market, and the entire season depends on whether lester and buchholz can be "better than league-average" as opposed to "tire fire". If they can package salty for a decent #3 starter, I don't see any reason why they can't compete for one of the two wild card spots.
Remember that last year's trainwreck still had the 5th most runs scored in the league. Offense is not the glaring issue here. I'm not thrilled about the victorino signing, but i don't see what's so funny about it to some people
The red sox have done what they had to do in a weak market, and the entire season depends on whether lester and buchholz can be "better than league-average" as opposed to "tire fire". If they can package salty for a decent #3 starter, I don't see any reason why they can't compete for one of the two wild card spots.
Remember that last year's trainwreck still had the 5th most runs scored in the league. Offense is not the glaring issue here. I'm not thrilled about the victorino signing, but i don't see what's so funny about it to some people
I don't think it's an horrendous signing, it just doesn't make much sense to me. If the Sox are serious about competing this year, why not spend that money on pitching? You said it yourself, offense isn't much of an issue.
I don't think it's an horrendous signing, it just doesn't make much sense to me. If the Sox are serious about competing this year, why not spend that money on pitching? You said it yourself, offense isn't much of an issue.
I think I heard somewhere that the money they've spent so far this offseason still doesn't equal the amount of money that was left on josh beckett's contract. There's plenty of money left for pitching. Not that it doesn't hurt my heart when I see the nats grab haren on a one-year deal...
Read the first few paragraphs here if you want to see a journalist say the things I'm saying, but more journalist-y
Good points. Victorino's and Napoli's veteran leadership should help the young guys on this team as the Sox transition into dipping into their minor league system. If Boston has the money they claim they do, then these contracts are okay as long as they still address other issues.
The thing I disagree with that the article seems to be saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that these moves are essentially enough. It mentioned that Boston's season relies on if their injured/underperforming players from last year can return to form. But that pitching staff still needs a lot of work. If they still have the money to land some quality pitching then they need to do it soon before the market turns dry. Otherwise, I don't see how they're going to be able to compete this year.
Read the first few paragraphs here if you want to see a journalist say the things I'm saying, but more journalist-y
Good points. Victorino's and Napoli's veteran leadership should help the young guys on this team as the Sox transition into dipping into their minor league system. If Boston has the money they claim they do, then these contracts are okay as long as they still address other issues.
The thing I disagree with that the article seems to be saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that these moves are essentially enough. It mentioned that Boston's season relies on if their injured/underperforming players from last year can return to form. But that pitching staff still needs a lot of work. If they still have the money to land some quality pitching then they need to do it soon before the market turns dry. Otherwise, I don't see how they're going to be able to compete this year.
I think you're underselling their rotation, to be honest. If Lester bounces back (and I have no reason to think he won't), they will have a 1-3 all under 30 and all likely to throw 200 innings. Doubront isn't getting much love, but he's projected by Bill James to go for 200+ and a 3.7 ERA, which for an AL #3 starter is pretty good. If they can find a good 4th starter and trot John Lackey's corpse out there as the 5th (and when you take his contract out of the equation, Lackey's better than most 5th starters), their rotation isn't that bad. Will it blow you away? No, but they have a lot of young arms that could potentially be called up.
I'll agree they need to make another move for a starter, but they're not screwed if they don't.
Good points. Victorino's and Napoli's veteran leadership should help the young guys on this team as the Sox transition into dipping into their minor league system. If Boston has the money they claim they do, then these contracts are okay as long as they still address other issues.
The thing I disagree with that the article seems to be saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that these moves are essentially enough. It mentioned that Boston's season relies on if their injured/underperforming players from last year can return to form. But that pitching staff still needs a lot of work. If they still have the money to land some quality pitching then they need to do it soon before the market turns dry. Otherwise, I don't see how they're going to be able to compete this year.
I think you're underselling their rotation, to be honest. If Lester bounces back (and I have no reason to think he won't), they will have a 1-3 all under 30 and all likely to throw 200 innings. Doubront isn't getting much love, but he's projected by Bill James to go for 200+ and a 3.7 ERA, which for an AL #3 starter is pretty good. If they can find a good 4th starter and trot John Lackey's corpse out there as the 5th (and when you take his contract out of the equation, Lackey's better than most 5th starters), their rotation isn't that bad. Will it blow you away? No, but they have a lot of young arms that could potentially be called up.
I'll agree they need to make another move for a starter, but they're not screwed if they don't.
Agree. The Sox rotation will be fine if they stay healthy. They just added to their bullpen and got two quality position players. Add to that that they got rid of the biggest numbskull ever to manage the Red Sox and it's all good. Except that I'm a Yankee fan.
They should improve a bit on last year. I'm hoping for .500 personally. The health problems have been crazy the last few years, Boston seriously needs to catch a break.
But the AL East has become the division of death. (Thanks to the Yankees.) It's entirely possible they still finish in last place and be near .500, when in some other division they could be running for the playoffs - even while playing Oakland.
Post by funkybuttlovin on Dec 8, 2012 11:25:50 GMT -5
Boston needs to catch a break? Please, your organization has been so poorly run these past few years. The AL East is GREAT baseball now THANKS TO THE YANKEES. The competition will be great and something baseball has been lacking. Just because the Sox can't get it together (even though they are making good moves) isn't the Yankees fault. Give ME a break, the Red Sox just need to catch up. I'm sorry I just think that post was ridiculous because it seems like you don't want your team in a good division.
And I don't like what the Yankees have done this offseason so far and now Youk? No thanks. The Yankees should be signing Hamilton in the offseason, preparing Chavez to take A-Rods spot and develop Chris Stewart to be our starting catcher.
I doubt it. There is little credible evidence showing they have serious interest. And it flies in the face of the team's direction as shown with some of these recent signings. Sure Napoli and Victorino are overpaid with these contracts, but they aren't that risky in comparison to what Hamilton will command. Napoli and Victorino will probably bring a better dynamic to the clubhouse and the younger players on the roster. Hamilton won't. The Sox might have asked for his price, but I highly doubt they'd go for it.
With the 18M a year they splashed on the outfield, plus some kids coming up in the minors and Cody Ross still available - Hamilton will NOT come to Boston. I wouldn't want him here either. (Ditto Nick Swisher.) I rather have Cody Ross back, work with what we have now, and wait for the kids in the minors to come to fruition. Hamilton is fragile goods, mentally and physically - and I'd be shocked if he left the AL West to be honest. Signing Hamilton would not be the smartest thing to do for the team, it just regresses to the Theo Epstein era of making flashy FA signings to be Yankees lite.
Post by Alberto Balsalm on Dec 8, 2012 17:48:20 GMT -5
What are the Phillies doing? They give up a young MLB ready pitcher in Worley, 2 of the organizations top prospects in an already depleted farm system, plus another young reliever for Ben Revere and Michael Young?
Post by Alberto Balsalm on Dec 8, 2012 17:51:05 GMT -5
Also I REALLY hope the Tribe end up dealing Asdrubal for Tyler Skaggs (or I guess Bauer but I'd much prefer Skaggs)
I am gonna be so pissed if we fail to get a deal done with Cabrera. Every offseason the Indians act like they're gonna be so active in signing free agents and making trades and we never end up doing anything. If Cabrera, Choo and C. Perez are all on the opening day roster I'm gonna be sick. If it were up to me I'd deal all 3
Also I REALLY hope the Tribe end up dealing Asdrubal for Tyler Skaggs (or I guess Bauer but I'd much prefer Skaggs)
I am gonna be so pissed if we fail to get a deal done with Cabrera. Every offseason the Indians act like they're gonna be so active in signing free agents and making trades and we never end up doing anything. If Cabrera, Choo and C. Perez are all on the opening day roster I'm gonna be sick. If it were up to me I'd deal all 3
Cabrera for Lance Lynn (or Jaime Garcia)/Schumaker from St. Louis
Also I REALLY hope the Tribe end up dealing Asdrubal for Tyler Skaggs (or I guess Bauer but I'd much prefer Skaggs)
I am gonna be so pissed if we fail to get a deal done with Cabrera. Every offseason the Indians act like they're gonna be so active in signing free agents and making trades and we never end up doing anything. If Cabrera, Choo and C. Perez are all on the opening day roster I'm gonna be sick. If it were up to me I'd deal all 3
Cabrera for Lance Lynn (or Jaime Garcia)/Schumaker from St. Louis
Cabrera for Lance Lynn (or Jaime Garcia)/Schumaker from St. Louis
Asdrubal for Shelby Miller.
Deal.
Oh don't do me like that. I've always had mixed feelings about what they shoud do with Shelby. There's times when I wish they would bait him out there, and then there's times like after this postseason when I would never imagine them getting rid of him. It's a tough call. Probably not for Asdrubal. Remember the Cards still have one year left on Furcal, and Mozeliak is encouraged by the way his wrist is healing. They'd just go with him before shipping Miller for Cabrera IMO.