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Post by Homer J. Fong on May 23, 2011 13:14:46 GMT -5
Okay, so we're just going on rapping skill - straight lyricism? Hmmm. This might be tough - some of the people I consider to be the greatest rappers ever aren't necessarily the most lyrical (Biggie comes to mind), but we'll see. I've already got a few in mind (Jay-Z and Ghostface are both locks for this list, IMO), but others will be tougher. For instance, do I put aside the lazy, radio-esque Lil' Wayne tracks in favor of his overwhelming punchlines from the Carter II era? What about someone like Cannibal Ox, who was devastating on Cold Vein but has disappeared?
For the record, I think when I finally put this together, "lyricism" to me will also include things like flow/cadence etc., because there are plenty of smart-ass dudes putting together witty/intelligent/whatever lyrics who can't make it sound right.
An escalator can never break: it can only become stairs. You should never see an Escalator Temporarily Out Of Order sign, just Escalator Temporarily Stairs. Sorry for the convenience. -Mitch Hedberg
Okay, so we're just going on rapping skill - straight lyricism? Hmmm. This might be tough - some of the people I consider to be the greatest rappers ever aren't necessarily the most lyrical (Biggie comes to mind), but we'll see. I've already got a few in mind (Jay-Z and Ghostface are both locks for this list, IMO), but others will be tougher. For instance, do I put aside the lazy, radio-esque Lil' Wayne tracks in favor of his overwhelming punchlines from the Carter II era? What about someone like Cannibal Ox, who was devastating on Cold Vein but has disappeared?
For the record, I think when I finally put this together, "lyricism" to me will also include things like flow/cadence etc., because there are plenty of smart-ass dudes putting together witty/intelligent/whatever lyrics who can't make it sound right.
To me, lyricism, in the hip-hop genre, involves more than just the words they're using. Like you said, cadence and flow have to be factored in. I just didn't want someone saying something like "Dr. Dre because he has the best beats" or "Tupac is the greatest ever because he has such an extensive catalog".
Okay, so we're just going on rapping skill - straight lyricism? Hmmm. This might be tough - some of the people I consider to be the greatest rappers ever aren't necessarily the most lyrical (Biggie comes to mind), but we'll see. I've already got a few in mind (Jay-Z and Ghostface are both locks for this list, IMO), but others will be tougher. For instance, do I put aside the lazy, radio-esque Lil' Wayne tracks in favor of his overwhelming punchlines from the Carter II era? What about someone like Cannibal Ox, who was devastating on Cold Vein but has disappeared?
For the record, I think when I finally put this together, "lyricism" to me will also include things like flow/cadence etc., because there are plenty of smart-ass dudes putting together witty/intelligent/whatever lyrics who can't make it sound right.
To me, lyricism, in the hip-hop genre, involves more than just the words they're using. Like you said, cadence and flow have to be factored in. I just didn't want someone saying something like "Dr. Dre because he has the best beats" or "Tupac is the greatest ever because he has such an extensive catalog".
Right. Gotcha.
Someone like Dr. Dre does create a problem - because while I recognize him as one of the all-time hip-hop greats, its not necessarily for his rapping. Its more for his production and ability to really create a whole sound/genre. Similar to how I feel about Kanye West - I wouldn't ever say that technically/lyrically he's top-ten, but the production angle is top notch. I'll be leaving both of them out, though if we expanded it to include beats/producing, they'd be locks.
Also, in thinking about Dr. Dre I once again realized how awesome Ice Cube was and how criminally underrated he's become. "AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted," "Death Certificate," "the Predator," and "Lethal Injection" are about as devastating a run of albums as anyone in hip hop has ever put together.
Also, in thinking about Dr. Dre I once again realized how awesome Ice Cube was and how criminally underrated he's become. "AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted," "Death Certificate," "the Predator," and "Lethal Injection" are about as devastating a run of albums as anyone in hip hop has ever put together.
Couldn't agree more. Tupac gets all the notoriety from that era, but people don't ever bring up Cube or Easy E.
Couldn't agree more. Tupac gets all the notoriety from that era, but people don't ever bring up Cube or Easy E.
But then...there's this:
It still blows my mind that a guy who was, for a period of about 5 years (1989-1994) considered the most controversial "gangsta" rapper out there now stars in and produces family comedies.
I'm going to listen to "AmeriKKKa" on the way home. That album has some of the best production (handled entirely by The Bomb Squad) of any rap album ever.
The pure wisdom of the Doc just can't be touched...
Dr. Dre: "Never let me slip, cause if I slip, then I'm slippin'."
I'm pretty sure DOC and Snoop wrote the majority of Dre's lyrics on "Chronic". Wouldn't put him anywhere on a list of greatest rappers. Definitely one of the top 5 producers however.
Post by RadioSpirit on May 23, 2011 14:38:02 GMT -5
Yes, this same problem comes up whenever people talk about the greatest rappers. Are you actually talking about who is greatest at rapping? Or are you saying who is the greatest hip/hop artist? I always use Kanye as an example of the dilemma, but Dre is a good one as well.
The pure wisdom of the Doc just can't be touched...
Dr. Dre: "Never let me slip, cause if I slip, then I'm slippin'."
I'm pretty sure DOC and Snoop wrote the majority of Dre's lyrics on "Chronic". Wouldn't put him anywhere on a list of greatest rappers. Definitely one of the top 5 producers however.
Eminem and Royce da 5'9" also did a lot of his ghost writing around that time, if I recall correctly
I'm pretty sure DOC and Snoop wrote the majority of Dre's lyrics on "Chronic". Wouldn't put him anywhere on a list of greatest rappers. Definitely one of the top 5 producers however.
Eminem and Royce da 5'9" also did a lot of his ghost writing around that time, if I recall correctly
Eminem was like 18 and living in a trailer when The Chronic came out. I think you're thinking of "Chronic 2001."
Post by Homer J. Fong on May 24, 2011 7:44:55 GMT -5
I might revise this many, many times, but this is my first shot:
1. Jay-Z 2. Notorious B.I.G. 3. Eminem 4. Nas 5. Ice Cube 6. Tupac 7. Rakim 8. Scarface 9. Ghostface Killah 10. Andre 3000
Honorable Mention: Chuck D, Lil' Wayne, Brother Ali, Method Man, Redman, Mos Def, Big L
If I revise this, I might put Ghostface higher, add Chuck D to the top ten...it's hard. I feel like I've way underrated Scarface - I feel like most people do, actually. I really, really wanted to slot Mos Def or Brother Ali in there, but I just couldn't do it - Mos has been too uneven, and Brother Ali is probably one of the best MCs alive today, but I don't know that his work ever hits that transcendent level. If Lil' Wayne hadn't gone the whole Rebirth/Young Money route after the Carter III, he'd have made my top ten. Big L's catalog is way too small for me to properly rate him, but his talent as an MC is undeniable. And I don't even like Eminem, but I have to grudgingly admit that he's cemented his spot as one of the best rappers to ever take the mic.
Juggs yr right on about Scarface being under-rated. I'd put him around #5. And contrary to popular inforoo belief, I'd have Kanye somewhere in the mix.
Last Edit: May 24, 2011 10:08:27 GMT -5 by . - Back to Top
Del the Funky Homosapien (Deltron Zero), anyone? Dose One? Anyone?! Admittedly I''m out of my element in the rap genre, but those are two of my favorites outside of the popular rappers.
Juggs yr right on about Scarface being under-rated. I'd put him aroung #5. And contrary to popular inforoo belief, I'd have Kanye somewhere in the mix.
If we were counting producing, or the whole art of making songs/music/albums, I'd have Kanye in there as well, along with Dr. Dre, and likely wouldn't have people like Nas/Mos Def/Big L/Ghostface in the mix. We're going strictly on "how good of a rapper is this person," and while Kanye's MC skills have GREATLY improved, he's still not there.
I also realized that I didn't mention Big Pun, and I probably should have. He's another one who gets underrated because of how early he died and because of how morbidly obese he was.
Here is my list, I might be a little older, so I have some old school peeps on my list, do not forget where we came from.
1. Eminem 2. Jay Z 3. Kayne West (a-hole, but I think he has mad MC skillz) 4. 2Pac 5. Biggie 6. Scarface 7. Slick Rick 8. Snoop 9. LL Cool J 10. KRS-One
Honorable Mention: Chuck D, Chali 2Na Method Man, DMX, NAS, Ramkin(I need to listen to him more, he might deserve a higher ramking ), Busta, NWA(all together=greatness, individually, not top ten), OutKast(same here, Andre and Big Boi together is greatness, solo, not top ten), and Run DMC and Sugar Hill Gang needs to be mentioned. Although I have yet to hear a sister throw down like a brother can, I think these ladies needs some attention: Lil' Kim, Queen Latifah, Salt N Pepper, Missy Elliot.
Okay I know I forgot some, but this was suppose to be only top 10. Oh well.
Post by Homer J. Fong on May 24, 2011 10:14:29 GMT -5
I always forget about LL Cool J - probably because his prime was way before my time, and I mostly remember him as the guy who picked an ill-advised fight with Canibus and made sexytime jams in the mid-90's while showing off his abs, but he was a phenomenal MC.
I always forget about LL Cool J - probably because his prime was way before my time, and I mostly remember him as the guy who picked an ill-advised fight with Canibus and made sexytime jams in the mid-90's while showing off his abs, but he was a phenomenal MC.
I would be just happy seeing less of the sexy time abs, but a Friday for you for recognize his MC skills.
Post by Homer J. Fong on May 24, 2011 10:29:52 GMT -5
Thanks man. I wasn't actually complaining - I turn the karma on/off at random times. I find it interesting to watch how people use it to react to things I post, in particular how I won't post anything for a series of 12+ hours, somebody will stumble upon an old post I made, and angrily sit there hitting "Monday" every hour until their dissatisfaction with my expressed opinion has been properly registered.
I might revise this many, many times, but this is my first shot:
1. Jay-Z 2. Notorious B.I.G. 3. Eminem 4. Nas 5. Ice Cube 6. Tupac 7. Rakim 8. Scarface 9. Ghostface Killah 10. Andre 3000
Honorable Mention: Chuck D, Lil' Wayne, Brother Ali, Method Man, Redman, Mos Def, Big L
If I revise this, I might put Ghostface higher, add Chuck D to the top ten...it's hard. I feel like I've way underrated Scarface - I feel like most people do, actually. I really, really wanted to slot Mos Def or Brother Ali in there, but I just couldn't do it - Mos has been too uneven, and Brother Ali is probably one of the best MCs alive today, but I don't know that his work ever hits that transcendent level. If Lil' Wayne hadn't gone the whole Rebirth/Young Money route after the Carter III, he'd have made my top ten. Big L's catalog is way too small for me to properly rate him, but his talent as an MC is undeniable. And I don't even like Eminem, but I have to grudgingly admit that he's cemented his spot as one of the best rappers to ever take the mic.
I was wondering who would be first to mention Andre 3000
Still kinda bummed that I don't see of Mos Def or Chali 2na
I will not make a list though, as I do not listen to enough rap to do so.
first off, great thread. i agree with all you that Ice Cube was a great rapper in his day, but his image has changed completely and I think that makes people forget how thug he used to be. and juggs, here, have a friday
here's my list in no particular order ( i may change it later )
1 Biggie 2 Chali 2na 3 RZA 4 Jay-Z 5 Eminem 6 Tupac 7 Ghostface Killah 8 Mos Def 9 Method Man 10 Snoop Dogg
I realize I have pretty much all of Wu-Tang in my list, but I like all their solo stuff as much as I like Wu-Tang. RZA is one of my favorites. The album "Birth of a Prince" is great and his soundtrack to Afro Samurai was out of control in addition to the Kill Bill soundtrack. It was hard for me to leave Big Boi and Andre 3000 off my list. Speakerboxxx, The Love Below, and Luscious Left Foot are great solo albums through and through, but their work together as Outkast is far better. I love The Beastie Boys and The Roots, but had to leave them off because their greatness is as a group.
Honorable mentions to Nas, GZA, Big Boi, Andre 3000, Gift of Gab, Ice Cube
Last Edit: May 24, 2011 11:03:28 GMT -5 by Guest - Back to Top
), Busta, NWA(all together=greatness, individually, not top ten), OutKast(same here, Andre and Big Boi together is greatness, solo, not top ten), and Run DMC and Sugar Hill Gang needs to be mentioned. Although I have yet to hear a sister throw down like a brother can, I think these ladies needs some attention: Lil' Kim, Queen Latifah, Salt N Pepper, Missy Elliot.
!1"