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You think Pitchfork was rough on the album, read what The Washington Post had to say.
I'm confused as to why people suddenly have a problem with Jay-Z rapping about how rich he is. The Washington Post article compares rooting to Jay-Z to rooting for Pepsi, or PRISM, or whatever. Pretty much every successful rapper on the planet raps about money. Where's the issue with that? If it's an issue more with the overall success and/or corporate nature of an artist of his magnitude, why isn't the Post panning similarly massive entertainers? The next time the Rolling Stones blow through town, will they have an article about how they treat their fans like consumers? It just seems there's a double standard being applied to Jay-Z that other artists won't have to go through. I won't lie, I honestly think there's a solid teaspoon of racism in all this. I think that on some level people are appalled that a black music artist has gotten this big and this much committed to the business, rather than use his station to speak on politics or the plight of the common man or blah blah blah. This is completely unfounded, but I get the same vibe with the criticism of Jay-Z's new album that I do anytime someone gets upset that a rapper is only rapping about guns/druqs/money, or talks about how Talib Kweli is their favorite MC because he's intelligent/political/whatever.
Also, the amount of hypocrisy shown by people lauding Yeezus and panning MCHG is hysterical. Pitchfork in particular made a comment in their review about Jay-Z's "dated" reference to Instagram...when I'd say his reference to it was about 100x more clever than Kanye's own reference. (Using "instagram" as a metaphor for druqs and noting how when you used it, you didn't want your picture taken, as opposed to "she instagram herself like bad b*tch alert, he instagram his watch like mad rich alert.")
I agree with this big time. HAte when people stress so much about subject matter
I'm confused as to why people suddenly have a problem with Jay-Z rapping about how rich he is. The Washington Post article compares rooting to Jay-Z to rooting for Pepsi, or PRISM, or whatever. Pretty much every successful rapper on the planet raps about money. Where's the issue with that? If it's an issue more with the overall success and/or corporate nature of an artist of his magnitude, why isn't the Post panning similarly massive entertainers? The next time the Rolling Stones blow through town, will they have an article about how they treat their fans like consumers? It just seems there's a double standard being applied to Jay-Z that other artists won't have to go through. I won't lie, I honestly think there's a solid teaspoon of racism in all this. I think that on some level people are appalled that a black music artist has gotten this big and this much committed to the business, rather than use his station to speak on politics or the plight of the common man or blah blah blah. This is completely unfounded, but I get the same vibe with the criticism of Jay-Z's new album that I do anytime someone gets upset that a rapper is only rapping about guns/druqs/money, or talks about how Talib Kweli is their favorite MC because he's intelligent/political/whatever.
Also, the amount of hypocrisy shown by people lauding Yeezus and panning MCHG is hysterical. Pitchfork in particular made a comment in their review about Jay-Z's "dated" reference to Instagram...when I'd say his reference to it was about 100x more clever than Kanye's own reference. (Using "instagram" as a metaphor for druqs and noting how when you used it, you didn't want your picture taken, as opposed to "she instagram herself like bad b*tch alert, he instagram his watch like mad rich alert.")
I agree with this big time. HAte when people stress so much about subject matter
Not commenting on this album in particular, but shouldn't assessment of subject matter influence someone's decision to like/dislike music? I do agree that picking and choosing when/when not to pay attention to subject matter is ridiculous, though.
I agree with this big time. HAte when people stress so much about subject matter
Not commenting on this album in particular, but shouldn't assessment of subject matter influence someone's decision to like/dislike music? I do agree that picking and choosing when/when not to pay attention to subject matter is ridiculous, though.
This.
When I listen to rap, I want the person I'm listening to to have something to say.
Post by Mista Don't Play on Jul 10, 2013 12:42:08 GMT -5
I feel like the criticisms of the album that follow the theme of "Why does he have to rap about his money?" hold even less weight this time around. He devotes plenty of time talking about fatherhood, marriage, slavery, among other things, on this album. That's one of the things that really made this album stick for me.
I feel like the criticisms of the album that follow the theme of "Why does he have to rap about his money?" hold even less weight this time around. He devotes plenty of time talking about fatherhood, marriage, slavery, among other things, on this album. That's one of the things that really made this album stick for me.
I agree critiquing the subject matter about money is lame.
A better criticism would be the beats are weak and the songs aren't that catchy or memorable.
Again I'm still in the early listening phase, I reserve the right to change my opinion.
I feel like the criticisms of the album that follow the theme of "Why does he have to rap about his money?" hold even less weight this time around. He devotes plenty of time talking about fatherhood, marriage, slavery, among other things, on this album. That's one of the things that really made this album stick for me.
Yeah, basically the criticisms in most of the reviews are "he's rapping about money" and "he sold out his TRUE fans!" (by releasing his album 3 days earlier on a promotion before releasing it to everyone, not like the promotional release prevented anyone with a brain from listening to the album)
Rapping about money and being rich is not the issue, it's that Jay-Z does so while lacking content, character, storytelling, and a willingness to connect. I am going to compare MCHG to Yeezus for a minute.
Everybody knows that both Jay-Z and Kanye are mega-rich, rap titans. But, Kanye shocks, makes jokes, and takes you into his experiences about being rich, while Jay-Z is just rapping and rhyming (albeit skillfully) about fancy things that only rich people like him know about. Kanye makes big, bold, and weighty statements, like in "New Slaves", about the injustices he sees in the world as a rich, black man that many of us would ever have really thought much about. Where Jay-Z would talk about vacationing on yachts are bragging about museums and paintings that he visits, Kanye gets straight awesome with, "They prolly all in the Hamptons, Bragging bout what they made. Fuck you and your Hampton house. I'll fuck your Hampton spouse, came on her Hampton blouse, and in her Hampton mouth." What makes it awesome is not that he's been to the Hamptons, it's awesome what he did when he was there.
Jay-Z lets us know that he is too fancy for getting messed up on drugs and wears Tom Ford instead. Kanye says, "Bitch I'm back out my coma. Waking up on your sofa. When I park my Range Rover, Slightly scratch your Corolla. Okay, I smashed your Corolla. I'm hanging on a hangover." Notice the use of Range Rover. It is implied richness, used as detail, while telling a story about his flawed ways in dealing with heartbreak with substance abuse.
I could into example after example of this, but in Yeezus, Kanye uses money as a way to paint a greater picture. For Jay-Z, money in MCHG is the whole point.
And, yes, I know Jay-Z is a better rapper. That's not what makes a great album, though.
Rapping about money and being rich is not the issue, it's that Jay-Z does so while lacking content, character, storytelling, and a willingness to connect. I am going to compare MCHG to Yeezus for a minute.
Everybody knows that both Jay-Z and Kanye are mega-rich, rap titans. But, Kanye shocks, makes jokes, and takes you into his experiences about being rich, while Jay-Z is just rapping and rhyming (albeit skillfully) about fancy things that only rich people like him know about. Kanye makes big, bold, and weighty statements, like in "New Slaves", about the injustices he sees in the world as a rich, black man that many of us would ever have really thought much about. Where Jay-Z would talk about vacationing on yachts are bragging about museums and paintings that he visits, Kanye gets straight awesome with, "They prolly all in the Hamptons, Bragging bout what they made. Quack you and your Hampton house. I'll Quack your Hampton spouse, came on her Hampton blouse, and in her Hampton mouth." What makes it awesome is not that he's been to the Hamptons, it's awesome what he did when he was there.
Jay-Z lets us know that he is too fancy for getting messed up on druqs and wears Tom Ford instead. Kanye says, "biznatch I'm back out my coma. Waking up on your sofa. When I park my Range Rover, Slightly scratch your Corolla. Okay, I smashed your Corolla. I'm hanging on a hangover." Notice the use of Range Rover. It is implied richness, used as detail, while telling a story about his flawed ways in dealing with heartbreak with substance abuse.
I could into example after example of this, but in Yeezus, Kanye uses money as a way to paint a greater picture. For Jay-Z, money in MCHG is the whole point.
And, yes, I know Jay-Z is a better rapper. That's not what makes a great album, though.
Rapping about money and being rich is not the issue, it's that Jay-Z does so while lacking content, character, storytelling, and a willingness to connect. I am going to compare MCHG to Yeezus for a minute.
Everybody knows that both Jay-Z and Kanye are mega-rich, rap titans. But, Kanye shocks, makes jokes, and takes you into his experiences about being rich, while Jay-Z is just rapping and rhyming (albeit skillfully) about fancy things that only rich people like him know about. Kanye makes big, bold, and weighty statements, like in "New Slaves", about the injustices he sees in the world as a rich, black man that many of us would ever have really thought much about. Where Jay-Z would talk about vacationing on yachts are bragging about museums and paintings that he visits, Kanye gets straight awesome with, "They prolly all in the Hamptons, Bragging bout what they made. Quack you and your Hampton house. I'll Quack your Hampton spouse, came on her Hampton blouse, and in her Hampton mouth." What makes it awesome is not that he's been to the Hamptons, it's awesome what he did when he was there.
Jay-Z lets us know that he is too fancy for getting messed up on druqs and wears Tom Ford instead. Kanye says, "biznatch I'm back out my coma. Waking up on your sofa. When I park my Range Rover, Slightly scratch your Corolla. Okay, I smashed your Corolla. I'm hanging on a hangover." Notice the use of Range Rover. It is implied richness, used as detail, while telling a story about his flawed ways in dealing with heartbreak with substance abuse.
I could into example after example of this, but in Yeezus, Kanye uses money as a way to paint a greater picture. For Jay-Z, money in MCHG is the whole point.
And, yes, I know Jay-Z is a better rapper. That's not what makes a great album, though.
I'd counter by saying that everything Kanye West is saying is false, while I at least somewhat believe Jay-Z's tales of extravagant spending. Kanye guests on an E! reality show and goes to fashion shows. He's not smashing tables at Hamptons parties and blacking out at random loft parties in NYC.
But we are not talking about what these guys do with their time in real life. We are talking about why Jay-Z is getting bad criticism for rapping about money. Besides, good art isn't based on what is fact or fiction and the best art makes you think. There isn't much substance in hearing a rich man gloat about his money.
I think you are trying to make Kanye's raps much deeper than they are. What makes Yeezus so outstanding is the production. The New Slaves line is just a way for Kanye to say that there is still racism. It's not some special epiphany. The Hold my Liquor verse, while awesome, and one of my favorites is no different than in any other Rap song where the subject is being under the influence, and there's tons of them. I'm sorry, but subject matter in Rap is not important. Playful use of words and syllables, delivery, originality, and rhythm are what's most important. If all that is on point, and you have something important to say, great.
Last Edit: Jul 10, 2013 19:06:25 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
I think you are trying to make Kanye's raps much deeper than they are. What makes Yeezus so outstanding is the production. The New Slaves line is just a way for Kanye to say that there is still racism. It's not some special epiphany. The Hold my Liquor verse, while awesome, and one of my favorites is no different than in any other Rap song where the subject is being under the influence, and there's tons of them. I'm sorry, but subject matter in Rap is not important. Playful use of words and syllables, delivery, and rhythm are what's most important. If all that is on point, and you have something important to say, great.
I wasn't trying to go there, but, yes, Kanye destroys MCHG in production.
Subject matter in rap is not important? Are we to hold rap to lower standard? It's ok to have nothing to say in a lyrically based style of music? Lil B must be your hero.
I think you are trying to make Kanye's raps much deeper than they are. What makes Yeezus so outstanding is the production. The New Slaves line is just a way for Kanye to say that there is still racism. It's not some special epiphany. The Hold my Liquor verse, while awesome, and one of my favorites is no different than in any other Rap song where the subject is being under the influence, and there's tons of them. I'm sorry, but subject matter in Rap is not important. Playful use of words and syllables, delivery, and rhythm are what's most important. If all that is on point, and you have something important to say, great.
I wasn't trying to go there, but, yes, Kanye destroys MCHG in production.
Subject matter in rap is not important? Are we to hold rap to lower standard? It's ok to have nothing to say in a lyrically based style of music? Lil B must be your hero.
Not to mention that Kanye has actually articulated many of the ideas behind Yeezus while promoting it. You're missing the point if you think that album is just a bunch of generic rap tropes with cool industrial beats.
EDIT: I'm not comparing MCHG favorably or unfavorably to Yeezus. I haven't even heard MCHG yet. I just thought this subject matter stuff was a really dumb thing to say about Yeezus.
Okay, let's get this out of the way so there's no confusion. Yeezus is a great album and clearly above MCHG.
Regarding the lyrics, monster, I get what you're saying with Kanye being clever at times on his album, but he also has bland, braggadocious lyrics at times, too. You can pick parts from either record that show depth in the lyrics and other parts that show a somewhat traditional, self-touting style. The issue some people have with these reviews is that they're bashing Jay-Z and fawning over Kanye when both guys have holes in the lyrical game on their albums.
Personally, my bigger issue with the reviews is that they are trying to say that Jay-Z sold out his fan base. That's just nonsense.
I don't think that, and no, lil b is not my hero. But you're crazy if you think the subject matter of Yeezus is so far and away more important than on MCHG.
Okay, let's get this out of the way so there's no confusion. Yeezus is a great album and clearly above MCHG.
Regarding the lyrics, monster, I get what you're saying with Kanye being clever at times on his album, but he also has bland, braggadocious lyrics at times, too. You can pick parts from either record that show depth in the lyrics and other parts that show a somewhat traditional, self-touting style. The issue some people have with these reviews is that they're bashing Jay-Z and fawning over Kanye when both guys have holes in the lyrical game on their albums.
Personally, my bigger issue with the reviews is that they are trying to say that Jay-Z sold out his fan base. That's just nonsense.
My point was not to show why Yeezus is better than Magna Carta, but to illustrate how critics are viewing the issue of "money." There are good and not so good ways to go about it. Some folks in this thread are acting like they are dumbfounded as to why Jay-Z is being criticized negatively for it.
I personally think MCHG is a pretty good listen, the subject matter just lacks depth.
Post by Jake Jortles on Jul 10, 2013 22:43:46 GMT -5
I've always felt like it doesn't matter what you are saying. The concept or idea doesn't matter. Its how you say it. How do you make it interesting, relatable, entertaining or whatever. Thats all i mean when I say subject matter doesn't matter. The actual subject isnt the problem ever. Its how you approach it.
Post by Boston Powers on Jul 10, 2013 23:29:04 GMT -5
Ok so what's the song that lasts like one minute (an awesome minute) and then as soon as you think Jay Z is gonna get wild with it, it just drops out? There better be a godddddamn extended version somewhere.
Okay, let's get this out of the way so there's no confusion. Yeezus is a great album and clearly above MCHG.
Regarding the lyrics, monster, I get what you're saying with Kanye being clever at times on his album, but he also has bland, braggadocious lyrics at times, too. You can pick parts from either record that show depth in the lyrics and other parts that show a somewhat traditional, self-touting style. The issue some people have with these reviews is that they're bashing Jay-Z and fawning over Kanye when both guys have holes in the lyrical game on their albums.
Personally, my bigger issue with the reviews is that they are trying to say that Jay-Z sold out his fan base. That's just nonsense.
My point was not to show why Yeezus is better than Magna Carta, but to illustrate how critics are viewing the issue of "money." There are good and not so good ways to go about it. Some folks in this thread are acting like they are dumbfounded as to why Jay-Z is being criticized negatively for it.
I personally think MCHG is a pretty good listen, the subject matter just lacks depth.
I think of Yeezus as a grand statement.
Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I was taking your comments as a direct comparison of the albums as a whole, that was more of a general comment when I saw a couple people comparing the two albums.
I don't disagree that overall Kanye does a better job of using allusions and metaphors on his album, my issue is that people aren't reviewing things with an objective point of view. In my mind, both guys rap about money, neither guy does it poorly, one guy does it a little bit better than the other. I realize that there are raised expectations for someone with Jay-Z's history, but every song can't be a lyrical masterpiece, either.
It's not that I think MCHG is perfect (or even great) and I don't think that because he's Jay-Z he should get leeway other artists don't, I just think people are being far too harsh on Jay-Z for not pulling another Reasonable Doubt out of thin air. And I disagree that his songs lack substance. Some do, certainly, but then so do some of Kanye's (I'm In It isn't exactly a deep love story, it's a song about wild sex - ftr, I love that song).
In the end I think people were so wrapped up in Yeezus' album that when Jay-Z released MCHG people immediately compared it to Yeezus, which could be Kanye's best album to date (relax, f*ckers, save that debate for later). Sure, comparing a good album to a great one makes it pale in comparison, but that's really not fair to Jay-Z. The people reviewing it should let it stand on its own merits. It's a good, not great, album that has some great high points and some low points, whether it be cutting songs too short, boring subject, lazy lyrics, whatever.
I'm not against people criticizing the album, I'm against people doing it because it's not Yeezus (which isn't what you did, but what the people reviewing these albums seem to keep doing).
My point was not to show why Yeezus is better than Magna Carta, but to illustrate how critics are viewing the issue of "money." There are good and not so good ways to go about it. Some folks in this thread are acting like they are dumbfounded as to why Jay-Z is being criticized negatively for it.
I personally think MCHG is a pretty good listen, the subject matter just lacks depth.
I think of Yeezus as a grand statement.
Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I was taking your comments as a direct comparison of the albums as a whole, that was more of a general comment when I saw a couple people comparing the two albums.
I don't disagree that overall Kanye does a better job of using allusions and metaphors on his album, my issue is that people aren't reviewing things with an objective point of view. In my mind, both guys rap about money, neither guy does it poorly, one guy does it a little bit better than the other. I realize that there are raised expectations for someone with Jay-Z's history, but every song can't be a lyrical masterpiece, either.
It's not that I think MCHG is perfect (or even great) and I don't think that because he's Jay-Z he should get leeway other artists don't, I just think people are being far too harsh on Jay-Z for not pulling another Reasonable Doubt out of thin air. And I disagree that his songs lack substance. Some do, certainly, but then so do some of Kanye's (I'm In It isn't exactly a deep love story, it's a song about wild sex - ftr, I love that song).
In the end I think people were so wrapped up in Yeezus' album that when Jay-Z released MCHG people immediately compared it to Yeezus, which could be Kanye's best album to date (relax, f*ckers, save that debate for later). Sure, comparing a good album to a great one makes it pale in comparison, but that's really not fair to Jay-Z. The people reviewing it should let it stand on its own merits. It's a good, not great, album that has some great high points and some low points, whether it be cutting songs too short, boring subject, lazy lyrics, whatever.
I'm not against people criticizing the album, I'm against people doing it because it's not Yeezus (which isn't what you did, but what the people reviewing these albums seem to keep doing).
I don't think we would see near as many comparisons if it weren't for the timing of their releases being so close to one another. I wonder how much thought went into it within Jay-Z's camp.
Post by Mista Don't Play on Jul 11, 2013 9:26:29 GMT -5
The timing has a lot to do with it. That combined with them being the two biggest names in hip hop and working closely together for years now. Its going to happen. Its not fair to either of them, but its almost unavoidable.
Ok so what's the song that lasts like one minute (an awesome minute) and then as soon as you think Jay Z is gonna get wild with it, it just drops out? There better be a godddddamn extended version somewhere.
I think you're referring to my favorite track on the album, "Beach is Better." I'm seriously hoping there is an extended version of this song that will see the light of day soon. It's just too good to end so abruptly.
Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I was taking your comments as a direct comparison of the albums as a whole, that was more of a general comment when I saw a couple people comparing the two albums.
I don't disagree that overall Kanye does a better job of using allusions and metaphors on his album, my issue is that people aren't reviewing things with an objective point of view. In my mind, both guys rap about money, neither guy does it poorly, one guy does it a little bit better than the other. I realize that there are raised expectations for someone with Jay-Z's history, but every song can't be a lyrical masterpiece, either.
It's not that I think MCHG is perfect (or even great) and I don't think that because he's Jay-Z he should get leeway other artists don't, I just think people are being far too harsh on Jay-Z for not pulling another Reasonable Doubt out of thin air. And I disagree that his songs lack substance. Some do, certainly, but then so do some of Kanye's (I'm In It isn't exactly a deep love story, it's a song about wild sex - ftr, I love that song).
In the end I think people were so wrapped up in Yeezus' album that when Jay-Z released MCHG people immediately compared it to Yeezus, which could be Kanye's best album to date (relax, f*ckers, save that debate for later). Sure, comparing a good album to a great one makes it pale in comparison, but that's really not fair to Jay-Z. The people reviewing it should let it stand on its own merits. It's a good, not great, album that has some great high points and some low points, whether it be cutting songs too short, boring subject, lazy lyrics, whatever.
I'm not against people criticizing the album, I'm against people doing it because it's not Yeezus (which isn't what you did, but what the people reviewing these albums seem to keep doing).
I don't think we would see near as many comparisons if it weren't for the timing of their releases being so close to one another. I wonder how much thought went into it within Jay-Z's camp.
Agreed on this point. Anyway, nice chat, I appreciate the civil discourse.
Ok so what's the song that lasts like one minute (an awesome minute) and then as soon as you think Jay Z is gonna get wild with it, it just drops out? There better be a godddddamn extended version somewhere.
I think you're referring to my favorite track on the album, "Beach is Better." I'm seriously hoping there is an extended version of this song that will see the light of day soon. It's just too good to end so abruptly.
That one is awesome, too, but I guess the one I was talking about is Versus.