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I always assumed that parents chose to have their kids cut for medical reasons. Because of increased chance of infection in the future.
Circumcision isn't a necessary medical procedure, and it actually does little to prevent future infection. It's mostly done for religious reasons or just personal preference, and less often for medical reasons (such as in Africa where it does affect the health of the male).
I always thought that the US & Canada were the only places where it's standard practice. But I double checked that really quick and apparently it's pretty common in Muslim countries, Israel, & South Korea too. But not Europe, they're au natural over there.
Edit: for a female I have way to many posts in this thread. I'm done now.
You're just too young to grasp how stylin' I really was. All the boys wanted to do me when I was 5. Actually the girls did too. My haircut was confusing.
I always assumed that parents chose to have their kids cut for medical reasons. Because of increased chance of infection in the future.
Circumcision isn't a necessary medical procedure, and it actually does little to prevent future infection. It's mostly done for religious reasons or just personal preference, and less often for medical reasons (such as in Africa where it does affect the health of the male).
I always thought that the US & Canada were the only places where it's standard practice. But I double checked that really quick and apparently it's pretty common in Muslim countries, Israel, & South Korea too. But not Europe, they're au natural over there.
Edit: for a female I have way to many posts in this thread. I'm done now.
It's actually declining in the US as well. Interestingly enough, there is a pretty significant regional difference in rates within the US as well with the Midwest having the highest rate at 71% while the West is the low at 40.2%.
Circumcision isn't a necessary medical procedure, and it actually does little to prevent future infection. It's mostly done for religious reasons or just personal preference, and less often for medical reasons (such as in Africa where it does affect the health of the male).
I always thought that the US & Canada were the only places where it's standard practice. But I double checked that really quick and apparently it's pretty common in Muslim countries, Israel, & South Korea too. But not Europe, they're au natural over there.
Edit: for a female I have way to many posts in this thread. I'm done now.
It's actually declining in the US as well. Interestingly enough, there is a pretty significant regional difference in rates within the US as well with the Midwest having the highest rate at 71% while the West is the low at 40.2%.
working with the urology folks there are a LOT of complications with NOT cutting it. mostly b/c parents don't know how to care for it. hard enough to keep them alive I suppose. who need to worry about washing and pulling and such
working with the urology folks there are a LOT of complications with NOT cutting it. mostly b/c parents don't know how to care for it. hard enough to keep them alive I suppose. who need to worry about washing and pulling and such
You'd be surprised at the amount of healthcare professionals that don't know how to deal with it either. When our older son was ~1 month old, the nurse at our original pediatrician said she had to retract his foreskin for a urine specimen (which is a terrible idea at that age). When we stopped her from doing so, she went to consult the doctor and came back with a different specimen collection device for uncircumcised boys. Apparently, she had no idea that it existed until the doctor told her.
jesus, some people have no business in healthcare. The problem with the parents is that they are not told how to care for it. how would one know if they have never done it? (this is the case with both cut and uncut)
Post by abrakapokus on Mar 11, 2014 22:13:05 GMT -5
Posting my reply here too.WOAH! Wtf is this? How would this go if there were a thread "Guys do you prefer your women's labia to be cut off or not?" Circumcision, even though it's become widely accepted, is SUPER FUCKED UP! You are performing cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting infant, removing around 15 square inches of extremely sensitive tissue. So let me just put this out there
There is no way to know how much tissue to remove from an infant, even if this were okay. Many times so much tissue is removed that the penis is pulled up, down or to the side when erect. The head of the penis becomes calloused from years of friction against pants/underwear/masturbation. The foreskin works like the eyelid, it is a gland, keeping OUT foreign objects and keeping the head of the penis protected and moist. The foreskin allows the penis to glide in and out of the vagina without removing natural lubrication and preventing that hammering motion but instead making it a rocking motion. Circumcision does not prevent anything. The US has one of the highest circ rate and some of the highest HIV rates as well. Circumcision kills around 114 babies a year from blood loss and many more boys have lost their entire sexual organ to this surgery. It is surgery and no pain meds are giving, the only pain reduction is topical, if any. The site is then sitting in a diaper of pee/poop and the foreskin has to be torn away for days/weeks afterwords which is very similar to tearing a fingernail off the nailbed. People say it's more hygienic, why? Because you see smegma, guess what ladies, you have it too. Shall we take the knife to you? Why do we fight against the circing of women and not men? More tissue is removed from men and it is done for the same reasons. In boys it's done as infants where they can't run, fight, or even verbalize that they are in pain or having issues. No medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision.
The main reason many intact or uncircumcised men must be circed later in life is because for the last 20 years doctors have ill informed parents on how to care for an intact penis or encouraged them to forcefully retract (again ripping the nail off the nailbed) intact boys. This is painful and creates tons of problems. The foreskin will pull away from the penis in due time and never should be forced. It is more likely that a boy will die from a circumcision than one will need to be circed later in life.
I know this is a joke, that people think it's funny but it's not. It is genital mutilation. Doctors have misguided parents for years as have religious folks. It was started to prevent masturbation to inflict pain on the genitals of boys so that they will not be sexual deviants and for many other ludicrous reasons. What's the number one reason though? Money. Around 500/baby, then you sell the foreskins for cosmetics, then the urologist gets to deal with problems later, and then the whole market of Viagra/lubrication.
I encourage you guys to watch a circumcision and to study it. Here is a really good video and some sites.
Post by Silky Johnson on Mar 11, 2014 23:32:19 GMT -5
Yeah so maybe an interesting perspective, I didn't get circumcised until I was 17. My mom wanted it to be my choice, but holy quack I used to be so insecure about being uncut. I hated knowing that I was different than everybody else and going to a really small high school word spread about everything. It got to the point where I avoided dating girls at my high school because I was worried about people finding out. Stupid high school mindset. But anyway luckily my mom is awesome and didn't make it a whole awkward talk when I told her about what I wanted.
Yeah so maybe an interesting perspective, I didn't get circumcised until I was 17. My mom wanted it to be my choice, but holy quack I used to be so insecure about being uncut. I hated knowing that I was different than everybody else and going to a really small high school word spread about everything. It got to the point where I avoided dating girls at my high school because I was worried about people finding out. Stupid high school mindset. But anyway luckily my mom is awesome and didn't make it a whole awkward talk when I told her about what I wanted.
Since you have clear before & after memories, do you ever miss it?
Yeah so maybe an interesting perspective, I didn't get circumcised until I was 17. My mom wanted it to be my choice, but holy quack I used to be so insecure about being uncut. I hated knowing that I was different than everybody else and going to a really small high school word spread about everything. It got to the point where I avoided dating girls at my high school because I was worried about people finding out. Stupid high school mindset. But anyway luckily my mom is awesome and didn't make it a whole awkward talk when I told her about what I wanted.
Posting my reply here too.WOAH! Wtf is this? How would this go if there were a thread "Guys do you prefer your women's labia to be cut off or not?" Circumcision, even though it's become widely accepted, is SUPER FUCKED UP! You are performing cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting infant, removing around 15 square inches of extremely sensitive tissue. So let me just put this out there
There is no way to know how much tissue to remove from an infant, even if this were okay. Many times so much tissue is removed that the penis is pulled up, down or to the side when erect. The head of the penis becomes calloused from years of friction against pants/underwear/masturbation. The foreskin works like the eyelid, it is a gland, keeping OUT foreign objects and keeping the head of the penis protected and moist. The foreskin allows the penis to glide in and out of the vagina without removing natural lubrication and preventing that hammering motion but instead making it a rocking motion. Circumcision does not prevent anything. The US has one of the highest circ rate and some of the highest HIV rates as well. Circumcision kills around 114 babies a year from blood loss and many more boys have lost their entire sexual organ to this surgery. It is surgery and no pain meds are giving, the only pain reduction is topical, if any. The site is then sitting in a diaper of pee/poop and the foreskin has to be torn away for days/weeks afterwords which is very similar to tearing a fingernail off the nailbed. People say it's more hygienic, why? Because you see smegma, guess what ladies, you have it too. Shall we take the knife to you? Why do we fight against the circing of women and not men? More tissue is removed from men and it is done for the same reasons. In boys it's done as infants where they can't run, fight, or even verbalize that they are in pain or having issues. No medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision.
The main reason many intact or uncircumcised men must be circed later in life is because for the last 20 years doctors have ill informed parents on how to care for an intact penis or encouraged them to forcefully retract (again ripping the nail off the nailbed) intact boys. This is painful and creates tons of problems. The foreskin will pull away from the penis in due time and never should be forced. It is more likely that a boy will die from a circumcision than one will need to be circed later in life.
I know this is a joke, that people think it's funny but it's not. It is genital mutilation. Doctors have misguided parents for years as have religious folks. It was started to prevent masturbation to inflict pain on the genitals of boys so that they will not be sexual deviants and for many other ludicrous reasons. What's the number one reason though? Money. Around 500/baby, then you sell the foreskins for cosmetics, then the urologist gets to deal with problems later, and then the whole market of Viagra/lubrication.
I encourage you guys to watch a circumcision and to study it. Here is a really good video and some sites.
Circumcision of infants is wrong because it's medically unnecessary and violates personal autonomy, a fundamental human right.
However... focusing just on genital mutilation ignores the larger issue. Doctors ARE NOT scientists, lawyers, philosophers, researchers or sages. They are practitioners. We look back at the barbaric medical practices of 50 years ago - lobotomy, electroshock, asylums, castration - and think "well, doctors today are smarter". The reality is, they aren't, the education they receive has changed, but they still follow the same practice of following established medical standards without question. There are precious few exceptions, and mostly among research doctors who also spend decades studying in traditional academia following their M.D. Ask your doctor what research papers they have read in full about a new drug they want to prescribe. Ask to see the longitudinal studies. Ask who paid for those studies, who verified them, how the board decided the results were valid.
We wrongly assume we're living in the "future" and that our practices today are correct. Circumcision is, frankly, the least evil of our problems. We're loading kids up on benzos and poorly-understood psychoactives (xanax and a host of medicines for misdiagnosed mental conditions). We're sold "health foods" like so-called probiotics which are nothing more than bogus claims by manufacturers. There are gut bacteria that help digestive conditions, they're not the ones that are easy to grow in yogurt. The entire chiropractic field is a fraud whose "scientific basis" is about as sound as homeopathic medicine. The doctors you encounter in general practice and in the emergency room are mostly trained in dealing with acute trauma. Their years in school are there so they can set a bone, perform the steps of a surgical procedure, or match symptoms to conditions.
The fact is that most doctors are tied to the traditions of the societies they operate within. That's why doctors in the US will prescribe addictive painkillers, it's our "tradition", you're hurting? Take a pill. You're sick? Here's a pill. Your kid is crying? Here is a pill. The combination of too few general practitioners and profit-centered pressure from health insurance companies only makes their job worse. Even if a doctor wants to change the system, they're limited on how much time they can spend with a patient. The cost of malpractice insurance and medical school ensures they'll have to work in the existing industry. And the people who oversee our food and medicine, who are our "safeguards", like the FDA? They allow toxic chemicals like partially-hydrogenated oil (no, it hasn't gone away, mono and diglycerides are in most baked goods and not on your nutrition label) and potential carcinogens like sodium nitrite. They are just as behind as our doctors in the field.
-
Sorry to rant, but I just hate that we see singular wrongs, the whole system is screwed up. Hell, we used to chop kids tonsils out every time they got a sore throat, it was decades after research had already proven the surgery was unnecessary that doctors were taught to wait until absolutely necessary. We still send people to 12-step programs for alcoholism when it's proven those programs are ineffective. We have dumb traditions, and 50 years from now, we'll be laughing at how barbaric and backwards we were in 2014. It's sad.
I'm not optimistic on fixing it. People tend to dismiss anyone ranting about the problems of the medical industry as yet-another wacko, because well, there are a lot of wackos out there who say "doctors are wrong" and then tell you that you need to go on a caveman diet, or live on kelp, or that animal spirits invade your body when you eat meat, et cetera. I'm not here to tell you doctors are "wrong", just to realize they are a practitioner, not Dr. House with a magical ability to know what is wrong and exactly how to fix it. A fresh doctor's medical knowledge is decades behind current research, and just as bogged down in outdated traditions as any other field.
-
And yes, chopping off your kid's foreskin doesn't make sense. As far as the sexual preference of women, that's a societal norm, if circumcision was uncommon, the typical image of what a penis was "supposed to look like" would change.
Yeah so maybe an interesting perspective, I didn't get circumcised until I was 17. My mom wanted it to be my choice, but holy quack I used to be so insecure about being uncut. I hated knowing that I was different than everybody else and going to a really small high school word spread about everything. It got to the point where I avoided dating girls at my high school because I was worried about people finding out. Stupid high school mindset. But anyway luckily my mom is awesome and didn't make it a whole awkward talk when I told her about what I wanted.
Since you have clear before & after memories, do you ever miss it?
Not at all. People say that sex is more pleasurable intact, but really I didn't feel a difference at all. I had only been with one girl previously, but it was the same for me. The only difference it made was for about 5-6 months after I was extremely sensitive, but I mean that passed. I'm definitely glad I did it and I will probably have it done for my son if I ever have one.
Posting my reply here too.WOAH! Wtf is this? How would this go if there were a thread "Guys do you prefer your women's labia to be cut off or not?" Circumcision, even though it's become widely accepted, is SUPER FUCKED UP! You are performing cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting infant, removing around 15 square inches of extremely sensitive tissue. So let me just put this out there
There is no way to know how much tissue to remove from an infant, even if this were okay. Many times so much tissue is removed that the penis is pulled up, down or to the side when erect. The head of the penis becomes calloused from years of friction against pants/underwear/masturbation. The foreskin works like the eyelid, it is a gland, keeping OUT foreign objects and keeping the head of the penis protected and moist. The foreskin allows the penis to glide in and out of the vagina without removing natural lubrication and preventing that hammering motion but instead making it a rocking motion. Circumcision does not prevent anything. The US has one of the highest circ rate and some of the highest HIV rates as well. Circumcision kills around 114 babies a year from blood loss and many more boys have lost their entire sexual organ to this surgery. It is surgery and no pain meds are giving, the only pain reduction is topical, if any. The site is then sitting in a diaper of pee/poop and the foreskin has to be torn away for days/weeks afterwords which is very similar to tearing a fingernail off the nailbed. People say it's more hygienic, why? Because you see smegma, guess what ladies, you have it too. Shall we take the knife to you? Why do we fight against the circing of women and not men? More tissue is removed from men and it is done for the same reasons. In boys it's done as infants where they can't run, fight, or even verbalize that they are in pain or having issues. No medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision.
The main reason many intact or uncircumcised men must be circed later in life is because for the last 20 years doctors have ill informed parents on how to care for an intact penis or encouraged them to forcefully retract (again ripping the nail off the nailbed) intact boys. This is painful and creates tons of problems. The foreskin will pull away from the penis in due time and never should be forced. It is more likely that a boy will die from a circumcision than one will need to be circed later in life.
I know this is a joke, that people think it's funny but it's not. It is genital mutilation. Doctors have misguided parents for years as have religious folks. It was started to prevent masturbation to inflict pain on the genitals of boys so that they will not be sexual deviants and for many other ludicrous reasons. What's the number one reason though? Money. Around 500/baby, then you sell the foreskins for cosmetics, then the urologist gets to deal with problems later, and then the whole market of Viagra/lubrication.
I encourage you guys to watch a circumcision and to study it. Here is a really good video and some sites.
Circumcision of infants is wrong because it's medically unnecessary and violates personal autonomy, a fundamental human right.
However... focusing just on genital mutilation ignores the larger issue. Doctors ARE NOT scientists, lawyers, philosophers, researchers or sages. They are practitioners. We look back at the barbaric medical practices of 50 years ago - lobotomy, electroshock, asylums, castration - and think "well, doctors today are smarter". The reality is, they aren't, the education they receive has changed, but they still follow the same practice of following established medical standards without question. There are precious few exceptions, and mostly among research doctors who also spend decades studying in traditional academia following their M.D. Ask your doctor what research papers they have read in full about a new drug they want to prescribe. Ask to see the longitudinal studies. Ask who paid for those studies, who verified them, how the board decided the results were valid.
We wrongly assume we're living in the "future" and that our practices today are correct. Circumcision is, frankly, the least evil of our problems. We're loading kids up on benzos and poorly-understood psychoactives (xanax and a host of medicines for misdiagnosed mental conditions). We're sold "health foods" like so-called probiotics which are nothing more than bogus claims by manufacturers. There are gut bacteria that help digestive conditions, they're not the ones that are easy to grow in yogurt. The entire chiropractic field is a fraud whose "scientific basis" is about as sound as homeopathic medicine. The doctors you encounter in general practice and in the emergency room are mostly trained in dealing with acute trauma. Their years in school are there so they can set a bone, perform the steps of a surgical procedure, or match symptoms to conditions.
The fact is that most doctors are tied to the traditions of the societies they operate within. That's why doctors in the US will prescribe addictive painkillers, it's our "tradition", you're hurting? Take a pill. You're sick? Here's a pill. Your kid is crying? Here is a pill. The combination of too few general practitioners and profit-centered pressure from health insurance companies only makes their job worse. Even if a doctor wants to change the system, they're limited on how much time they can spend with a patient. The cost of malpractice insurance and medical school ensures they'll have to work in the existing industry. And the people who oversee our food and medicine, who are our "safeguards", like the FDA? They allow toxic chemicals like partially-hydrogenated oil (no, it hasn't gone away, mono and diglycerides are in most baked goods and not on your nutrition label) and potential carcinogens like sodium nitrite. They are just as behind as our doctors in the field.
-
Sorry to rant, but I just hate that we see singular wrongs, the whole system is screwed up. Hell, we used to chop kids tonsils out every time they got a sore throat, it was decades after research had already proven the surgery was unnecessary that doctors were taught to wait until absolutely necessary. We still send people to 12-step programs for alcoholism when it's proven those programs are ineffective. We have dumb traditions, and 50 years from now, we'll be laughing at how barbaric and backwards we were in 2014. It's sad.
I'm not optimistic on fixing it. People tend to dismiss anyone ranting about the problems of the medical industry as yet-another wacko, because well, there are a lot of wackos out there who say "doctors are wrong" and then tell you that you need to go on a caveman diet, or live on kelp, or that animal spirits invade your body when you eat meat, et cetera. I'm not here to tell you doctors are "wrong", just to realize they are a practitioner, not Dr. House with a magical ability to know what is wrong and exactly how to fix it. A fresh doctor's medical knowledge is decades behind current research, and just as bogged down in outdated traditions as any other field.
-
And yes, chopping off your kid's foreskin doesn't make sense. As far as the sexual preference of women, that's a societal norm, if circumcision was uncommon, the typical image of what a penis was "supposed to look like" would change.
In your post you've managed to shoot down Western medicine (proven effective for some), Eastern medicine (proven effective for some), Homeopathic medicine (proven effective for some), traditional addiction services (proven effective for some). Sorry to rant, but I just hate that some people see EVERYTHING as wrong when the fact of the matter is that we are all different, from size and shape to how our body chemistry, psyche, organs etc react to various treatments. And truly, all types of "medicine" are "practices". Not only because, as you pointed out, it is an ever evolving field that is bound by trial and error, but also because everyone, from their bodies to their beliefs, is different, and therefore there are several exceptions to the "rule". And thank god for research and those pioneering new treatments, and to those willing to work outside of the box.
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
Yeah so maybe an interesting perspective, I didn't get circumcised until I was 17. My mom wanted it to be my choice, but holy quack I used to be so insecure about being uncut. I hated knowing that I was different than everybody else and going to a really small high school word spread about everything. It got to the point where I avoided dating girls at my high school because I was worried about people finding out. Stupid high school mindset. But anyway luckily my mom is awesome and didn't make it a whole awkward talk when I told her about what I wanted.
I dunno if it really gets much more personal than this, does it?
I can relate. I too was given the choice, tho the way it was laid out to me way very awkward and embarrassing to me at the time. I was pretty self conscious about it because of it, until I had my 1st sexy time with my gf at the time,in 10th grade ., who told me I wasn't the 1st uncircumcised guy she'd seen. I didn't feel like it mattered after that, and I'd like to think that part of my reason of never havering it done, was that I didn't want to waste any time "down for maintenance". That and I was just use to it by that time. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Yeah so maybe an interesting perspective, I didn't get circumcised until I was 17. My mom wanted it to be my choice, but holy quack I used to be so insecure about being uncut. I hated knowing that I was different than everybody else and going to a really small high school word spread about everything. It got to the point where I avoided dating girls at my high school because I was worried about people finding out. Stupid high school mindset. But anyway luckily my mom is awesome and didn't make it a whole awkward talk when I told her about what I wanted.
Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.......did it hurt?
Oh it hurt. Really bad. I remember for about a week I just laid in bed on pain pills with a bag of frozen veggies on my crotch wondering why we even needed genitals in the first place.
LLL said it best. Also this thread seems out of place on a message board about bonnaroo. Don't see the point of this thread. It would be like a thread about guys do you prefer innies or outies. If you are not circumcised then the result of the poll is discouraging and if you are then you have to hear people rant about how there is something wrong with you based on what they believe.
Last Edit: Mar 12, 2014 0:30:27 GMT -5 by CPK - Back to Top
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LLL said it best. Also this thread seems out of place on a message board about bonnaroo. Don't see the point of this thread. It would be like a thread about guys do you prefer innies or outies. If you are not circumcised then the result of the poll is discouraging and if you are then you have to hear people rant about how there is something wrong with you based on what they believe.
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
Circumcision of infants is wrong because it's medically unnecessary and violates personal autonomy, a fundamental human right.
However... focusing just on genital mutilation ignores the larger issue. Doctors ARE NOT scientists, lawyers, philosophers, researchers or sages. They are practitioners. We look back at the barbaric medical practices of 50 years ago - lobotomy, electroshock, asylums, castration - and think "well, doctors today are smarter". The reality is, they aren't, the education they receive has changed, but they still follow the same practice of following established medical standards without question. There are precious few exceptions, and mostly among research doctors who also spend decades studying in traditional academia following their M.D. Ask your doctor what research papers they have read in full about a new drug they want to prescribe. Ask to see the longitudinal studies. Ask who paid for those studies, who verified them, how the board decided the results were valid.
We wrongly assume we're living in the "future" and that our practices today are correct. Circumcision is, frankly, the least evil of our problems. We're loading kids up on benzos and poorly-understood psychoactives (xanax and a host of medicines for misdiagnosed mental conditions). We're sold "health foods" like so-called probiotics which are nothing more than bogus claims by manufacturers. There are gut bacteria that help digestive conditions, they're not the ones that are easy to grow in yogurt. The entire chiropractic field is a fraud whose "scientific basis" is about as sound as homeopathic medicine. The doctors you encounter in general practice and in the emergency room are mostly trained in dealing with acute trauma. Their years in school are there so they can set a bone, perform the steps of a surgical procedure, or match symptoms to conditions.
The fact is that most doctors are tied to the traditions of the societies they operate within. That's why doctors in the US will prescribe addictive painkillers, it's our "tradition", you're hurting? Take a pill. You're sick? Here's a pill. Your kid is crying? Here is a pill. The combination of too few general practitioners and profit-centered pressure from health insurance companies only makes their job worse. Even if a doctor wants to change the system, they're limited on how much time they can spend with a patient. The cost of malpractice insurance and medical school ensures they'll have to work in the existing industry. And the people who oversee our food and medicine, who are our "safeguards", like the FDA? They allow toxic chemicals like partially-hydrogenated oil (no, it hasn't gone away, mono and diglycerides are in most baked goods and not on your nutrition label) and potential carcinogens like sodium nitrite. They are just as behind as our doctors in the field.
-
Sorry to rant, but I just hate that we see singular wrongs, the whole system is screwed up. Hell, we used to chop kids tonsils out every time they got a sore throat, it was decades after research had already proven the surgery was unnecessary that doctors were taught to wait until absolutely necessary. We still send people to 12-step programs for alcoholism when it's proven those programs are ineffective. We have dumb traditions, and 50 years from now, we'll be laughing at how barbaric and backwards we were in 2014. It's sad.
I'm not optimistic on fixing it. People tend to dismiss anyone ranting about the problems of the medical industry as yet-another wacko, because well, there are a lot of wackos out there who say "doctors are wrong" and then tell you that you need to go on a caveman diet, or live on kelp, or that animal spirits invade your body when you eat meat, et cetera. I'm not here to tell you doctors are "wrong", just to realize they are a practitioner, not Dr. House with a magical ability to know what is wrong and exactly how to fix it. A fresh doctor's medical knowledge is decades behind current research, and just as bogged down in outdated traditions as any other field.
-
And yes, chopping off your kid's foreskin doesn't make sense. As far as the sexual preference of women, that's a societal norm, if circumcision was uncommon, the typical image of what a penis was "supposed to look like" would change.
In your post you've managed to shoot down Western medicine (proven effective for some), Eastern medicine (proven effective for some), Homeopathic medicine (proven effective for some), traditional addiction services (proven effective for some). Sorry to rant, but I just hate that some people see EVERYTHING as wrong when the fact of the matter is that we are all different, from size and shape to how our body chemistry, psyche, organs etc react to various treatments. And truly, all types of "medicine" are "practices". Not only because, as you pointed out, it is an ever evolving field that is bound by trial and error, but also because everyone, from their bodies to their beliefs, is different, and therefore there are several exceptions to the "rule". And thank god for research and those pioneering new treatments, and to those willing to work outside of the box.
"Proven effective for some" isn't a scientific argument. Conjecture and anecdotal evidence are the greatest sins of a rational mind. And yes, I take it personally because I've dealt with it, and watched people I loved die because of it.
My intent is not to "prove" or "disprove" anything, I'm pointing out that the continuation of bad practices (such a routine tonsillectomy, until quite recently, and circumcision) is the result of a practitioner system. Doctors are taught the traditional practices of their field, which is why they will continue to spread that information. The medical field is slow to react to change practices because some of its practices are tied to tradition rather than any scientific basis. The problem with circumcision, and some of the other bad practices in medicine, is precisely that they are not based in any real science. We mutilate genitals without any real reason behind it.
Homeopathy is a scam, it is the belief that sugar pills can cure diseases. Unfortunately, placebo doesn't stop cancer, or HIV, and the lives of innocent people are being hurt because of scam artists trying to make a buck off fake medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy). It's cute in the developed world, where we're rarely ill, to talk about homeopathic remedies for colds, but when a parent refuses to give their sick kid cancer treatment, because they want "psychic surgery" or other nonsense, they're killing their kids.
I'm not opposed to alternative medicine. Plants, fungi and bacteria are the basis of many of our treatments. Many pain killers are derived from opium poppies. Aspirin reduces the risk of heart attack. Milk thistle potentially aids in liver disease. Saint John's Wort may help with depression. The precursors for most medicines are grown. But there's a huge difference between taking something, scientifically studying it, and moving forward with that science, and making a bunch of bogus claims as to efficacy based on a religious or traditional belief. It's the difference between a rational and a superstitious society.
I'm not "thankful" for the folks who discuss the "proven effective for some" ideas anymore than I'm thankful for our woefully out-of-date "modern" medicine system. I spent three years of my life with daily cluster headaches, nerve pain, vomiting and confusion because it took that long to find a doctor who did the appropriate genetic screening and serologic panels to identify my condition. When you're sitting there literally watching your body die, reading through scientific journals because your doctors don't know, and all of the "new age" research that people suggest has no foundation, and doesn't work, your perspective on all that changes. I'm not thankful that people who aren't really sick are handing money to companies who want to make health claims, it created a ton of bad information that I had to dig through before I could get a diagnosis.
I've been through absolute hell within the medical system. My wife has a rare brain condition, and is one of a tiny handful of people to have an experimental, $500,000 procedure (which insurance did not cover) done by a research doctor. I had to carry her into the hospital and call the doctor's home personally, because the ER wanted to just watch her overnight. He told me that if I hadn't called him that night, she'd be dead. I watched my father die of a throat cancer caused by a rare infection he contracted during a routine health screening (hospitals are breeding grounds for strange and antibiotic-resistant conditions). It's not really fun when you get the letter from the Mayo Clinic saying "you're one of only a dozen cases of this infection, and the first white man to every contract it." It also wasn't fun watching him die over a period of six months when it metastasized.
It wasn't fun wondering if I had the same genetic predisposition, if I myself might have cancer, for three years while doctors went "well, it's not lupus". Thanks doc.
So, cutting part of someone's dick of is low on the "killing people with bad medicine" list of sins, but it does bother me because the reason we do it is the same reason our healthcare system is so utterly incompetent at dealing with chronic conditions and complex diseases.
Oh it hurt. Really bad. I remember for about a week I just laid in bed on pain pills with a bag of frozen veggies on my crotch wondering why we even needed genitals in the first place.
In your post you've managed to shoot down Western medicine (proven effective for some), Eastern medicine (proven effective for some), Homeopathic medicine (proven effective for some), traditional addiction services (proven effective for some). Sorry to rant, but I just hate that some people see EVERYTHING as wrong when the fact of the matter is that we are all different, from size and shape to how our body chemistry, psyche, organs etc react to various treatments. And truly, all types of "medicine" are "practices". Not only because, as you pointed out, it is an ever evolving field that is bound by trial and error, but also because everyone, from their bodies to their beliefs, is different, and therefore there are several exceptions to the "rule". And thank god for research and those pioneering new treatments, and to those willing to work outside of the box.
"Proven effective for some" isn't a scientific argument. Conjecture and anecdotal evidence are the greatest sins of a rational mind. And yes, I take it personally because I've dealt with it, and watched people I loved die because of it.
My intent is not to "prove" or "disprove" anything, I'm pointing out that the continuation of bad practices (such a routine tonsillectomy, until quite recently, and circumcision) is the result of a practitioner system. Doctors are taught the traditional practices of their field, which is why they will continue to spread that information. The medical field is slow to react to change practices because some of its practices are tied to tradition rather than any scientific basis. The problem with circumcision, and some of the other bad practices in medicine, is precisely that they are not based in any real science. We mutilate genitals without any real reason behind it.
Homeopathy is a scam, it is the belief that sugar pills can cure diseases. Unfortunately, placebo doesn't stop cancer, or HIV, and the lives of innocent people are being hurt because of scam artists trying to make a buck off fake medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy). It's cute in the developed world, where we're rarely ill, to talk about homeopathic remedies for colds, but when a parent refuses to give their sick kid cancer treatment, because they want "psychic surgery" or other nonsense, they're killing their kids.
I'm not opposed to alternative medicine. Plants, fungi and bacteria are the basis of many of our treatments. Many pain killers are derived from opium poppies. Aspirin reduces the risk of heart attack. Milk thistle potentially aids in liver disease. Saint John's Wort may help with depression. The precursors for most medicines are grown. But there's a huge difference between taking something, scientifically studying it, and moving forward with that science, and making a bunch of bogus claims as to efficacy based on a religious or traditional belief. It's the difference between a rational and a superstitious society.
I'm not "thankful" for the folks who discuss the "proven effective for some" ideas anymore than I'm thankful for our woefully out-of-date "modern" medicine system. I spent three years of my life with daily cluster headaches, nerve pain, vomiting and confusion because it took that long to find a doctor who did the appropriate genetic screening and serologic panels to identify my condition. When you're sitting there literally watching your body die, reading through scientific journals because your doctors don't know, and all of the "new age" research that people suggest has no foundation, and doesn't work, your perspective on all that changes. I'm not thankful that people who aren't really sick are handing money to companies who want to make health claims, it created a ton of bad information that I had to dig through before I could get a diagnosis.
I've been through absolute hell within the medical system. My wife has a rare brain condition, and is one of a tiny handful of people to have an experimental, $500,000 procedure (which insurance did not cover) done by a research doctor. I had to carry her into the hospital and call the doctor's home personally, because the ER wanted to just watch her overnight. He told me that if I hadn't called him that night, she'd be dead. I watched my father die of a throat cancer caused by a rare infection he contracted during a routine health screening (hospitals are breeding grounds for strange and antibiotic-resistant conditions). It's not really fun when you get the letter from the Mayo Clinic saying "you're one of only a dozen cases of this infection, and the first white man to every contract it." It also wasn't fun watching him die over a period of six months when it metastasized.
It wasn't fun wondering if I had the same genetic predisposition, if I myself might have cancer, for three years while doctors went "well, it's not lupus". Thanks doc.
So, cutting part of someone's dick of is low on the "killing people with bad medicine" list of sins, but it does bother me because the reason we do it is the same reason our healthcare system is so utterly incompetent at dealing with chronic conditions and complex diseases.
Wowzer. I work in that "incompetent" health care system. I personally, everyday, see it work for some, not work for others. Personally dealt with it too, watching someone I love die at the hands of medicine. I'm not talking about circumcision here, so leave that out of it. The point it, this is all we have. Truth. Unless you know something we don't and just aren't telling us. And in that case, you are kind of an asshole for keeping your genius from the rest of us who could have our loved one's saved by it.
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
Post by LoveLuckLaughter on Mar 12, 2014 1:41:16 GMT -5
Also, homeopathic medicine has been VERY effective at curbing one of our very dear board members cancer symptoms. So get over yourself. You don't know everything, or much of anything. Come up with a viable solution instead of bitching about everything. People like you are the problem in everywalk of life. Bitchers and moaners with no solutions or insight of their own. That's the problem with your post. You bitch about EVERYTHING, which automatically makes you seen closed minded and with a huge lack of insight into the understanding of individuality and the way that medicine, alternative and traditional actually works, and the the constraints that occur when you have mere humans working at the helm.
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
Wowzer. I work in that "incompetent" health care system. I personally, everyday, see it work for some, not work for others. Personally dealt with it too, watching someone I love die at the hands of Eastern, Western, Homeopathic etc medicint. I'm not talking about circumcision here, so leave that out of it. The point it, this is all we have. Truth. Unless you know something we don't and just aren't telling us. And in that case, you are kind of an asshole for keeping your genius from the rest of us who could have our loved one's saved by it.
You work in the health care system and believe sugar pills (homeopathy) cure patients? And you state that you believe this based on anecdote? Do you see why such unsubstantiated beliefs would be a problem?
I just shared with you my knowledge, you attacked me for sharing it, stated homeopathy is an effective medical practice, and called me an asshole. Kind of against the Bonnarovian spirit there, no? I'm not interested in fighting with you, I've stated my experience and viewpoint. I'm bothered by practices (medical, religious or otherwise) which inflict harm. Circumcision is such a practice. As the gentlemen who had the procedure done at 17 already stated - it's painful - we know infants feel pain, we're inflicting pain and potential complications on babies because parents want their kid to be "normal", or they falsely believe a foreskin causes problems.
Also, homeopathic medicine has been VERY effective at curbing one of our very dear board members cancer symptoms. So get over yourself. You don't know everything, or much of anything. Come up with a viable solution instead of bitching about everything. People like you are the problem in everywalk of life. Bitchers and moaners with no solutions or insight of their own.
Homeopathic medicines are sugar pills. They work by placebo. The body is capable of self-healing. It is possible for people to recover from illness "on their own".
However, claiming they are effective is dangerous and irresponsible. There are people who die every day because they are told an "herbal remedy" will cure conditions which it is unlikely to be effective for, and that homeopathic pills, which contain no active compound (they are literally nothing more than a blank pill) will solve their illness. I have been through medical hell, I understand why people who are dying are desperate for some, any, cure. I understand why a parent with a sick child will look for anything they possibly can, and try anything they possibly can.
But there are people out there making a living preying on these people. It is absolutely, morally, scientifically, ethically wrong to tell someone homeopathy works.
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
Post by LoveLuckLaughter on Mar 12, 2014 1:53:06 GMT -5
And I was speaking from the viewpoint of alt medicine, cannabis, Chinese herbs, food as medicine, positive thoughts lowering cortisol etc. The masses do not understand the difference between homeopathy and alt medicine. These lines have become blurred. And unfortunately, your initial post was full of a tone that suggests a very myopic view of the world. And the truth be told, life is not as black and white as it seems you wish to believe.
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
Wowzer. I work in that "incompetent" health care system. I personally, everyday, see it work for some, not work for others. Personally dealt with it too, watching someone I love die at the hands of Eastern, Western, Homeopathic etc medicint. I'm not talking about circumcision here, so leave that out of it. The point it, this is all we have. Truth. Unless you know something we don't and just aren't telling us. And in that case, you are kind of an asshole for keeping your genius from the rest of us who could have our loved one's saved by it.
You work in the health care system and believe sugar pills (homeopathy) cure patients? And you state that you believe this based on anecdote? Do you see why such unsubstantiated beliefs would be a problem?
I just shared with you my knowledge, you attacked me for sharing it, stated homeopathy is an effective medical practice, and called me an asshole. Kind of against the Bonnarovian spirit there, no? I'm not interested in fighting with you, I've stated my experience and viewpoint. I'm bothered by practices (medical, religious or otherwise) which inflict harm. Circumcision is such a practice. As the gentlemen who had the procedure done at 17 already stated - it's painful - we know infants feel pain, we're inflicting pain and potential complications on babies because parents want their kid to be "normal", or they falsely believe a foreskin causes problems.
Also, homeopathic medicine has been VERY effective at curbing one of our very dear board members cancer symptoms. So get over yourself. You don't know everything, or much of anything. Come up with a viable solution instead of bitching about everything. People like you are the problem in everywalk of life. Bitchers and moaners with no solutions or insight of their own.
Homeopathic medicines are sugar pills. They work by placebo. The body is capable of self-healing. It is possible for people to recover from illness "on their own".
However, claiming they are effective is dangerous and irresponsible. There are people who die every day because they are told an "herbal remedy" will cure conditions which it is unlikely to be effective for, and that homeopathic pills, which contain no active compound (they are literally nothing more than a blank pill) will solve their illness. I have been through medical hell, I understand why people who are dying are desperate for some, any, cure. I understand why a parent with a sick child will look for anything they possibly can, and try anything they possibly can.
But there are people out there making a living preying on these people. It is absolutely, morally, scientifically, ethically wrong to tell someone homeopathy works.
Wait, you just admitted that medical treatments have a root in natural remedies, and then you want to say that people who claim that herbal remedies may be effective are full of shit. I guess I can't even figure out where you are coming from, except from the place of one who just likes to argue with anyone and everyone.
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.