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Post by Boston Powers on May 11, 2015 21:53:45 GMT -5
I love how everyone just glosses over them making Brady turn in his personal cell phone. I wouldn't turn over my cell to my employer, and I doubt any of you would. To think a high profile celebrity with a famous wife would just hand over his phone is idiotic. But can't expect the talking heads on espn to take that into consideration.
I love how everyone just glosses over them making Brady turn in his personal cell phone. I wouldn't turn over my cell to my employer, and I doubt any of you would. To think a high profile celebrity with a famous wife would just hand over his phone is idiotic. But can't expect the talking heads on espn to take that into consideration.
I also find it humorous that people are saying he didn't cooperate when he absolutely did except for this phone issue. He presented his side and answered questions for hours and little to none of what Brady said was in the report. This is a joke. He'll miss 1 or 2 games after appeal.
The thing is, in an employment investigation the employee is compelled to cooperate. PFT has covered this a bit over the last week or so since the report came out:
"Got incriminating info on your phone? Refuse to provide it. Know things that would tend to point toward guilt? Refuse to talk, or at least refuse to answer certain questions.
Some fans think that’s OK, spouting off principles that apply only in the context of criminal prosecutions. But the right to remain silent, the presumption of innocence, the requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and all other Constitutional protections only matter when the outcome is prison or death.
For workplace investigations, the employer makes the rules. And when the employer expects cooperation, anything other than significant sanctions for failure to cooperate will invite others to refuse to cooperate."
"Things get more interesting when considering the consequences for Brady’s refusal to fully cooperate with the investigation. He chose to not surrender his phone, which automatically (and separately) constitutes conduct detrimental to the league. Assuming that whoever made that decision has a basic degree of common sense, it’s fair to assume that the path of non-cooperation and conduct detrimental to the league was deemed to be better than the path of surrendering the phone and having evidence discovered that would make the underlying violation more clear.
Per a league source, phones routinely were surrendered by many league employees (including the highest of the high-level league employees) when former FBI director Robert Mueller investigated whether someone at 345 Park Avenue had seen the Ray Rice elevator video before TMZ released it in September. No one refused to surrender their phones.
In Brady’s case, the same protections would have been provided. A third-party performs the imaging and data collection based on narrowly-defined search terms and recipient information. With Brady, an offer was made to let Brady’s camp perform the search itself. He still declined.
At a minimum, that entitles the NFL to infer that the contents of the phone were not helpful to Brady."
I get that Inforoo tends towards antiestablishmentarianism but that's not how the rules are set up in this situation. You may think that it's "wrong" that he should be asked to supply his phone but it's the employer's right to request it in the course of the investigation when the information they are seeking is relevant. The employee can refuse to cooperate, of course, but they run the risk of termination. In this case, the league decided that the punishment would be suspension, fines and loss of draft picks.
Edit: It also should be noted that Brady's representatives were offered the opportunity to do the cell phone search themselves but declined because they felt that the results would be viewed with skepticism:
"any information we would have provided -- and the Wells investigative team did ask us to go through Tom’s phone on our own and provide them with information if we chose to go that route -- but as you might surmise, if we would have chosen to go that route, any information we would have given them, they probably would have had skepticism about anyway."
Post by Boston Powers on May 12, 2015 9:09:04 GMT -5
So despite the NFL's recent track record in botching investigations and mishandling sensitive information, Tom Brady, a high profile sports figure and celebrity who is married to an equally famous, well-known supermodel wife and whose family is constantly having its privacy violated by TMZ and paparazzi, should hand his phone over to the NFL, the very source of the various media leaks that have driven the story since its inception. Got it.
So despite the NFL's recent track record in botching investigations and mishandling sensitive information, Tom Brady, a high profile sports figure and celebrity who is married to an equally famous, well-known supermodel wife and whose family is constantly having its privacy violated by TMZ and paparazzi, should hand his phone over to the NFL, the very source of the various media leaks that have driven the story since its inception. Got it.
So despite the NFL's recent track record in botching investigations and mishandling sensitive information, Tom Brady, a high profile sports figure and celebrity who is married to an equally famous, well-known supermodel wife and whose family is constantly having its privacy violated by TMZ and paparazzi, should hand his phone over to the NFL, the very source of the various media leaks that have driven the story since its inception. Got it.
Despite what the media talking heads keep saying about this, this is not accurate. Tom Brady was not asked to literally hand over his phone, just the pertinent text messages and emails. This is directly from the Wells Report:
"Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady's counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady?s telephone or other electronic devices." Wells Report at p. 21.
So despite the NFL's recent track record in botching investigations and mishandling sensitive information, Tom Brady, a high profile sports figure and celebrity who is married to an equally famous, well-known supermodel wife and whose family is constantly having its privacy violated by TMZ and paparazzi, should hand his phone over to the NFL, the very source of the various media leaks that have driven the story since its inception. Got it.
Despite what the media talking heads keep saying about this, this is not accurate. Tom Brady was not asked to literally hand over his phone, just the pertinent text messages and emails. This is directly from the Wells Report:
"Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady's counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady?s telephone or other electronic devices." Wells Report at p. 21.
"We never saw a tape of Ray Rice hitting his wife before" - NFL League Commissioner, September 2014
Despite what the media talking heads keep saying about this, this is not accurate. Tom Brady was not asked to literally hand over his phone, just the pertinent text messages and emails. This is directly from the Wells Report:
"Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information (including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady's counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady?s telephone or other electronic devices." Wells Report at p. 21.
"We never saw a tape of Ray Rice hitting his wife before" - NFL League Commissioner, September 2014
That is not the same thing. I am just quoting directly from the source. The media is misstating the source material, and it is leading to endless hot takes.
"We never saw a tape of Ray Rice hitting his wife before" - NFL League Commissioner, September 2014
That is not the same thing. I am just quoting directly from the source. The media is misstating the source material, and it is leading to endless hot takes.
Still, as LD stated earlier, they put Brady in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Unless they outed him for cheating, his camp's compilation of pertinent texts would be met with skepticism. Personally, I think Brady made the right strategical choice given he had no good options. At this point he maintains some level of deniability. His reputation is tarnished, but that was unavoidable at this point.
First of all, IMO Brady is probably guilty. Four games? Pretty fucking severe. It will get dropped to two on appeal. They didn't prove that he was guilty but Brady didn't prove he wasn't. This isn't a court of law so Brady has to do something to at least give an appearance of cooperation. If it goes to a court of law (beyond a simple PA appeal) then Brady would probably have to hand over his phone and I wouldn't do that if I was him. He doesn't need the money and I wouldn't trust the NFL with my personal messages even if it was to prove my innocence. The NFL couldn't run a bake sale discretely.
The Pats losing a first rounder next year is huge. The severity of that penalty was likely a culmination of previous transgressions and the fact that the Pats stonewalled (or at least half-heartedly cooperated with) the investigation. Even though a million bucks is the stiffest fine ever levied against a team it is chump change to the Pats.
This is all pretty damning to the league IMO. I would expect that every QB has a preference for PSI but it needs to be within the allowance. Why the fuck doesn't the NFL supply the pool of balls inflated to the proper weight and dole them out during the game without regard to team or QB? Having each team supply their own balls is just fucking stupid. It makes you wonder what other stupid shit the NFL does that leads to the temptation to "bend the odds" in your favor.
I'm not sure what bothers me more, the four game suspension on Brady (I think it should be 1-2) or the team losing draft picks - in particular the 1st rounder.
Why the fuck doesn't the NFL supply the pool of balls inflated to the proper weight and dole them out during the game without regard to team or QB? Having each team supply their own balls is just fucking stupid. It makes you wonder what other stupid shit the NFL does that leads to the temptation to "bend the odds" in your favor.
Because Brady and Manning successfully lobbied for the change in 2006:
Why the fuck doesn't the NFL supply the pool of balls inflated to the proper weight and dole them out during the game without regard to team or QB? Having each team supply their own balls is just fucking stupid. It makes you wonder what other stupid shit the NFL does that leads to the temptation to "bend the odds" in your favor.
Because Brady and Manning successfully lobbied for the change in 2006:
I wasn't aware. Thanks for that cdevaney. It certainly adds a little spice to the stew that Brady finds himself in since he was one of the QBs that proposed it. The NFL was stupid to go along with it but then it might not even be that bad if they didn't hand the balls back to the team that provided them after they were checked. In MLB they throw a ball out if it grazes the ground behind home plate. Talk about a difference in approach.
First of all, IMO Brady is probably guilty. Four games? Pretty fucking severe. It will get dropped to two on appeal. They didn't prove that he was guilty but Brady didn't prove he wasn't. This isn't a court of law so Brady has to do something to at least give an appearance of cooperation. If it goes to a court of law (beyond a simple PA appeal) then Brady would probably have to hand over his phone and I wouldn't do that if I was him. He doesn't need the money and I wouldn't trust the NFL with my personal messages even if it was to prove my innocence. The NFL couldn't run a bake sale discretely.
The Pats losing a first rounder next year is huge. The severity of that penalty was likely a culmination of previous transgressions and the fact that the Pats stonewalled (or at least half-heartedly cooperated with) the investigation. Even though a million bucks is the stiffest fine ever levied against a team it is chump change to the Pats.
This is all pretty damning to the league IMO. I would expect that every QB has a preference for PSI but it needs to be within the allowance. Why the fuck doesn't the NFL supply the pool of balls inflated to the proper weight and dole them out during the game without regard to team or QB? Having each team supply their own balls is just fucking stupid. It makes you wonder what other stupid shit the NFL does that leads to the temptation to "bend the odds" in your favor.
I could be wrong here, but I think they went out of their way to assure Tom that his personal information was secure, offering him a slew options. But either way, I don't see the issue, don't cheat at work, and then they wont investigate you.
I'm not sure what bothers me more, the four game suspension on Brady (I think it should be 1-2) or the team losing draft picks - in particular the 1st rounder.
What bothers you? I'd say the punishment fits the crime of a repeat offender who cheated for years. You guys have clearly created a culture that accepts cheating, and it needs to be stopped. I mean honestly, this punishment shouldn't really deter you from cheating again. Until the punishment is equal to the potential reward (a Super Bowl), there's no reason for you to stop. I think this was a step in the right direction.
I could be wrong here, but I think they went out of their way to assure Tom that his personal information was secure, offering him a slew options. But either way, I don't see the issue, don't cheat at work, and then they wont investigate you.
Oh, I think he cheated and should be punished. But I still wouldn't trust that the NFL could keep information not pertinent to the investigation out of TMZ's hands. He's pretty screwed. And I'm not a Pats fan by any means. I have no dog in this fight. Go Giants!
I could be wrong here, but I think they went out of their way to assure Tom that his personal information was secure, offering him a slew options. But either way, I don't see the issue, don't cheat at work, and then they wont investigate you.
Oh, I think he cheated and should be punished. But I still wouldn't trust that the NFL could keep information not pertinent to the investigation out of TMZ's hands. He's pretty screwed. And I'm not a Pats fan by any means. I have no dog in this fight. Go Giants!
I forget where I heard this, but I believe they even offered to have Tom present during the media review. I certainly understand not feeling comfortable, but once you've been caught with your hand in the cookie jar, you should still hand the phone over.
I'm not sure what bothers me more, the four game suspension on Brady (I think it should be 1-2) or the team losing draft picks - in particular the 1st rounder.
What bothers you? I'd say the punishment fits the crime of a repeat offender who cheated for years. You guys have clearly created a culture that accepts cheating, and it needs to be stopped. I mean honestly, this punishment shouldn't really deter you from cheating again. Until the punishment is equal to the potential reward (a Super Bowl), there's no reason for you to stop. I think this was a step in the right direction.
Post by Pieshutter2 on May 15, 2015 10:51:37 GMT -5
Well if it was any other team I would say the penalty was to harsh, but fuck tom brady. Also i think this draft will haunt tampa bay for many years to come. Winston will not be successful.
Well if it was any other team I would say the penalty was to harsh, but fuck tom brady. Also i think this draft will haunt tampa bay for many years to come. Winston will not be successful.
I don't have any problem with Tom Brady, but Jameis Winston being a long term success in the NFL is the kind of thing I would make bets about eating my hat if it came true.
Well if it was any other team I would say the penalty was to harsh, but fuck tom brady. Also i think this draft will haunt tampa bay for many years to come. Winston will not be successful.
You act like you caught Brady fucking your girl
And yeah, Winston is overrated. I think Mariota will do better, or has the potential anyway. The Titans need a world of help around him though.
Well if it was any other team I would say the penalty was to harsh, but fuck tom brady. Also i think this draft will haunt tampa bay for many years to come. Winston will not be successful.
You act like you caught Brady fucking your girl
And yeah, Winston is overrated. I think Mariota will do better, or has the potential anyway. The Titans need a world of help around him though.
I think both will probably bust early for different reasons. Like you I think Mariota is better. He's just tied to a pretty bad organization and will come into the league with a bottom five O-line. Winston on the other hand has a chance to come out firing with all the height they have on that offense. Winston, Mike Evans, Vincent Jackson and Austin Sefarian-Jenkins are all at least 6'4". BUT, Knucklehead quarterbacks just never pan out. It's OK to have players of questionable character at any other position.
Post by thegroovemonkey on May 15, 2015 11:29:40 GMT -5
Madden just unveiled their new cover:
It now contains an incredibly immersive off season mode where you can beat your kids, wife, guys at the bar, and even yell racial slurs at random people during concerts.
Well if it was any other team I would say the penalty was to harsh, but fuck tom brady. Also i think this draft will haunt tampa bay for many years to come. Winston will not be successful.
You act like you caught Brady fucking your girl
And yeah, Winston is overrated. I think Mariota will do better, or has the potential anyway. The Titans need a world of help around him though.
I just hate the patriots. With the draft it seems the supposed slight talent edge of Winston would be irrelevant due to the major off the field differences of the two, especially after this past year in the nfl
And yeah, Winston is overrated. I think Mariota will do better, or has the potential anyway. The Titans need a world of help around him though.
I think both will probably bust early for different reasons. Like you I think Mariota is better. He's just tied to a pretty bad organization and will come into the league with a bottom five O-line. Winston on the other hand has a chance to come out firing with all the height they have on that offense. Winston, Mike Evans, Vincent Jackson and Austin Sefarian-Jenkins are all at least 6'4". BUT, Knucklehead quarterbacks just never pan out. It's OK to have players of questionable character at any other position.
Yeah, Mariota should be better, but he's tied to a sinking ship that won't be able to accommodate his skill set. I expect more out of him on his second team.
The last knucklehead QB to pan out was Marino, no?
Post by Dave Maynar on May 15, 2015 12:27:26 GMT -5
Ok, Goodell is the guy who is overseeing the appeal of the decision that Goodell made? Someone please explain to me how that works.
Yesterday at work, we were discussing the whole thing with the Patriots. A co-worker seriously tried to say that Brady's offense hurt the integrity of the game while Ray Rice's did not because one was on the field and the other was off. I haven't shut anyone down as directly and curtly as I did him in a long time.
I think both will probably bust early for different reasons. Like you I think Mariota is better. He's just tied to a pretty bad organization and will come into the league with a bottom five O-line. Winston on the other hand has a chance to come out firing with all the height they have on that offense. Winston, Mike Evans, Vincent Jackson and Austin Sefarian-Jenkins are all at least 6'4". BUT, Knucklehead quarterbacks just never pan out. It's OK to have players of questionable character at any other position.
Yeah, Mariota should be better, but he's tied to a sinking ship that won't be able to accommodate his skill set. I expect more out of him on his second team.
The last knucklehead QB to pan out was Marino, no?
You know I was actually thinking of two quarterbacks as I posted one was Marino, who we all know never won the big one, the other is Broadway Joe Namath.
Yeah, Mariota should be better, but he's tied to a sinking ship that won't be able to accommodate his skill set. I expect more out of him on his second team.
The last knucklehead QB to pan out was Marino, no?
You know I was actually thinking of two quarterbacks as I posted one was Marino, who we all know never won the big one, the other is Broadway Joe Namath.
While Marino never won the Super Bowl, he's arguably one of the best players to never win one. And one of the better QBs of all time.
Ok, Goodell is the guy who is overseeing the appeal of the decision that Goodell made? Someone please explain to me how that works.
Poor negotiating by the NFL Player's Association during the last strike. It's a pretty dumb system. I get the Commish's desire to 'protect the shield' but all it has really done is lead to more questions.