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Debates over this question seem to have popped up in about a dozen different threads over the last few days, so I thought I would set up a place to talk about it (and a poll for fun).
I voted no. A definition of mainstream that everyone could agree on would seem to be a logical place to start a discussion about it. I think that it can be a useful term when used in very general, abstract sense, but don't really care enough about it to get into details. Basically I think its a marketing term created by and useful to marketers, but not especially useful for discussing interactions with actual human beings.
My impression is that some people think that Superfly is making lineup decisions on relatively cynical, profit based motives rather than musical taste based motives. I don't know the answer to this question, and could see both sides of it, but my personal opinion is that they are putting together a lineup that they think is musically kick ass. There are necessarily business decisions to be made, but I choose to believe that their primary motivation is to put together the festival that they would want to attend. Why do I think this? Because if I put together the festival I wanted to attend, it would look an awful lot like the Bonnaroo '06 lineup.
Personally I think it would be great if extended back and forth discussions of this mainstream issue didn't pop up in every other thread.
For what it's worth, I read an article where Ashley Capps said that this was the first year that seeing some of the shows was a priority for him. That, to me, says that they were trying to put together a lineup of excellent music.
Incidentally, the article also said that they have been trying to get Radiohead for several years now. This was just the first year that they were able to make it happen.
It looks to me like they are just trying to create a diverse festival where you can catch some hip-hop follow it with some country, and then some late night jams. I love it! All the different types of music are fantastic. It reminds me of the Bumbershoot festival in Seattle where on any day you can hear any type of music.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 30, 2006 14:37:30 GMT -5
samhall said:
It looks to me like they are just trying to create a diverse festival where you can catch some hip-hop follow it with some country, and then some late night jams. I love it! All the different types of music are fantastic. It reminds me of the Bumbershoot festival in Seattle where on any day you can hear any type of music.
exactly.... thats what roo is about... except that the jam wasnt only late night it was headliners and big acts...not one person ive heard of has griped about j5, lyrics born,shooter jennings,yonder mountain or atmosphere, its not about diversity, its not even about the deathcabs and those other bands that somw would argue are out of place....it is about the lack of what you would expect from a festival that was built on a certain type of music and a certain expectation as to the commercialization of the event, since then though they have nearly completely changed the format... the jam bands are not represented here as they have been in the past ... not in number of jam bands and certainly not in the slots they are filling, and they are raising the price every year and giving less of what it was built on...damn i didnt go the first year but i hear you were allowed to take in food and drinks.... it seems like every year they do a little more to squeeze every penny out of us... and in my opinion they are trying to get these new people because of the fact that they will buy more of the stuff that roo taxes vendors on as opposed to gettin thier eats and pipes and what nots from the community or just surviving on shrooms and water trying to keep enough loot to make it to the next show...im sure alot of you have heard my points before but seeing as how this keeps poppin up ill throw em out there again
I really don't think mainstream is a bad thing if you separate the good music from the mainstream from the bad. Are Tom Petty, Beck, Radiohead, and Ben Folds more mainstream than Widespread Panic, moe., Tea Leaf Green, Galactic, and Keller Williams? Of course they are. But they are also musicians who I have wanted to see in concert for a long time and am very excited about seeing at Bonnaroo where the vibe is amazing and the people who will be watching next to me will enjoy the artists for the quality of the music, which is what Bonnaroo is about. I doubt Superfly booked these acts based on who sells the most albums and who they can sell more merchandise for.
I am with ka mai in that this is the lineup I would want for my festival, give or take a few artists. Would I like a few more jambands, yes, but there is so much on the lineup that I already want to see I don't care if more people are announced at this point. I don't think anyone has disputed the fact that there is enough at the festival to keep them happy for the entire time.
I can see a change in the artists at the festival this year over 2002. But I really don't think that has to do with actively trying to become more "mainstream". I think they are just changing things up so that they aren't yet another festival with all the same jambands. Why would I go to more than one festival if the same lineup played at each one? The diversity of the artists is what makes a festival like Bonnaroo so attractive to me and to a lot of the people who go to Bonnaroo and I will never think having popular artists playing at a festival is a bad thing, as long as those artists are talented and entertaining.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 30, 2006 15:06:16 GMT -5
but the way i see it is that it is not the dicversity that makes roo what it is.... its part of it it, but it is more about the community... to me anyways, and it is a community that loves to go see thier favorite acts multiple times...of course you wouldnt go see mtv/radio bands multiple times because they have thier set number of radio/mtv hits that they do at every show.... but most the jam bands have true talent and never put on the same show twice.... granted most of them have a couple songs that show up in every setlist but even those songs are done differently each time...bonnaroo was about that community... a jamband playing for 80000 people and all of them feeling it, instead of 40000 feeling it and the other half goin "who are htese guys? " im pretty sure that you will see how much of a hit the scene has taken when half the people pack up and leave before phils set... im betting some will jet after radiohead (which is why i think they are playing sat and not fri... i could be wrong though)although thats fine with me if they jet early
Post by Lucid Interval on Mar 30, 2006 15:10:11 GMT -5
samhall said:
...they will buy more of the stuff that roo taxes vendors on as opposed to gettin thier eats and pipes and what nots from the community or just surviving on shrooms and water trying to keep enough loot to make it to the next show...
Post by Lucid Interval on Mar 30, 2006 15:14:53 GMT -5
I am really interested to see how much the scene is going to change though, i dont think alot of first timers get it but its going to be different this year...
but the way i see it is that it is not the dicversity that makes roo what it is.... its part of it it, but it is more about the community... to me anyways, and it is a community that loves to go see thier favorite acts multiple times...of course you wouldnt go see mtv/radio bands multiple times because they have thier set number of radio/mtv hits that they do at every show.... but most the jam bands have true talent and never put on the same show twice.... granted most of them have a couple songs that show up in every setlist but even those songs are done differently each time...bonnaroo was about that community... a jamband playing for 80000 people and all of them feeling it, instead of 40000 feeling it and the other half goin "who are htese guys? " im pretty sure that you will see how much of a hit the scene has taken when half the people pack up and leave before phils set... im betting some will jet after radiohead (which is why i think they are playing sat and not fri... i could be wrong though)although thats fine with me if they jet early
Oh I agree with you on that as well, its not solely the diversity, but that is major at least for me and all of my friends who keep coming back. Would I see alot of jambands 7 days a week, yes. Do I like to see bands I otherwise might not get to see (Radiohead as an example) other than at Bonnaroo, yes. Don;t get me wrong, I am praying that the rest of the additions are Jambands and something involving Warren Haynes and please god no more hip hop (I like it, but enough has been added now, lets get some SCI or something). But I appreciate the fact that I can see all of these bands represented in one place with the vibe that roo has and the community that I feel will still be there.
I am really interested to see how much the scene is going to change though, i dont think alot of first timers get it but its going to be different this year...
I know that last year I went for the 3rd time and I brought with me 5 first timers and only one other veteran. I was a little worried about being there with a couple of the first timers (they aren't campers, didn't know much about the music, wanted to see the 4 or 5 bands they'd heard of), but there is something special about that place, man. They became part of the scene that has always been there. That made me a believer that even if some people are just showing up for the few bands they know, they'll be pulled into the vibe of the festival. It really is hard not to. Maybe I am too optimistic?
damn i didnt go the first year but i hear you were allowed to take in food and drinks.... it seems like every year they do a little more to squeeze every penny out of us
I've been to every 'Roo and they've allowed water and snacks/small food all of the years. They even checked for beer/alcohol during the day the first year. Burritos were $10 inside Centeroo in '02, just like last year (or maybe they were a dollar or two more). I don't see where they've raised prices much more than inflation, which is a real suprise considering all the extras that Bonnaroo offers.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 30, 2006 16:05:16 GMT -5
also i would have to think that it is possible that roo could be affected more then normal because alot of jam band fans have chosen to hit up waka the week before and many wont be doing roo the next weekend and also telluride is the same weekend as roo.... so im thinking not only is the normal roo crowd losing some of what draws it in, there are other things pulling them away, and the fact that roo costs alot more then other fests,almost twice as much in fact
Post by doobiedewey on Mar 30, 2006 16:20:57 GMT -5
I too I'm anxious to check out the scene this year... I've only been to the first one so I'm sure it will be much different than that... that was heaven.... but with the bands that they have this year and the talent that is there, how can music fans who are willing to shed out that kinda dough and travel to see these bands not have good vibes? My only hope is that Superfly and all the other festival organizers do even 1/10th as good of a job as the first year, and it will truly be an amazing time for all.
Post by futurecowboy on Mar 30, 2006 16:22:45 GMT -5
Logistics were as good as I can imagine them being last year, doobie. Clean port-o-lets, etc. The only thing I didn't like as far as changes that were added last year were the speakers blasted the 'roo radio station in the "streets" around the campgrounds. I'd much rather have a mash-up of campers' boomboxes, instruments, etc. than that.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 30, 2006 16:50:09 GMT -5
i never noticed the roo radio thing... i walked around quite a bit too... all i heard was boomboxes...
another sign of change.. i heard eminem being played 3 seperate times last year.... even i like some of what eminem has to offer... but not at roo come on!
Maybe this is a better question for some of the people who have issues with what they perceive as "changes" to Roo:
Do you want the community that would appreciate Bonnaroo's spirit to grow?
I think what bothers me most is the elitism that I feel is coming from many Roo'ers. I thought this was all about good music. Radiohead is incredibly well respected- they are HUGE festival players and have bucked the mainstream for most of their career (their last 3 albums could not be less mainstream). I just wince at the conservatism I see coming from Roo'ers who make cynical comments about taxes and about the kind of people they are afraid will show up. And watch-- if they don't sell out this year, these same people will point and say, "see- they should have stayed with (whatever format)" and if they do sell out, they'll complain that the move was just to sell tickets.
Moe, Widespread, and any incarnation of the Dead still sell more albums than Ben Folds, Death Cab, Bright Eyes and more ever sell. If you want to complain that there aren't enough jam bands, than make that argument-- trying to make the current lineup into bubblegum pop is absurd. If you want to try and attack their musicianship or question their sincerity- go ahead (and good luck)-- but do it with balls; don't just say quips about "American Idol" or "mainstream" like it even applies. Show us why these are such poor choices for our outdoor festival with an amazing vibe.
Post by TheFudgeFactory on Mar 30, 2006 17:36:05 GMT -5
iskew said:
Maybe this is a better question for some of the people who have issues with what they perceive as "changes" to Roo:
Do you want the community that would appreciate Bonnaroo's spirit to grow?
I think what bothers me most is the elitism that I feel is coming from many Roo'ers. I thought this was all about good music. Radiohead is incredibly well respected- they are HUGE festival players and have bucked the mainstream for most of their career (their last 3 albums could not be less mainstream). I just wince at the conservatism I see coming from Roo'ers who make cynical comments about taxes and about the kind of people they are afraid will show up. And watch-- if they don't sell out this year, these same people will point and say, "see- they should have stayed with (whatever format)" and if they do sell out, they'll complain that the move was just to sell tickets.
Moe, Widespread, and any incarnation of the Dead still sell more albums than Ben Folds, Death Cab, Bright Eyes and more ever sell. If you want to complain that there aren't enough jam bands, than make that argument-- trying to make the current lineup into bubblegum pop is absurd. If you want to try and attack their musicianship or question their sincerity- go ahead (and good luck)-- but do it with balls; don't just say quips about "American Idol" or "mainstream" like it even applies. Show us why these are such poor choices for our outdoor festival with an amazing vibe.
What happens if my tee shot lands on a bird's back and he carries it out of bounds but then is attacked by a larger bird who grabs the ball and drops it in the hole? Is that still a hole in one? 'Cause that's how I'm gonna play it.
I gotta vote "no". Go to someone normal person you work with (you know, maybe in their 30's, or in their 20's but not real with it) and run off the list of bands that are going to be at bonnaroo. Betcha they identify less than 10% of them (whereas most of us could identify at least half if not more). Mainstream? Radiohead (sorta), Beck (sorta), Costello (sorta), Blues Traveler, Cypress Hill, Petty, and Death Cab to a degree. Look at the ratio of major versus indie labels. Coachella, that's mainstream. Bonnaroo is just good music.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 30, 2006 18:23:35 GMT -5
well i definetly wouldnt lump blues traveler, cypresshill and petty in wit dcfc.. thats taking it a bit far..... i know that it comes off as elitism but i really dont htink thats what it is.... i guess i have made too much of a point out of the bands i dont think should be there.... really i am more pissed about what isnt there... i dont care if death cab plays, i just want the jam bands that habitual rooers have come to expect(although i still contend that matisyahu is worth complaining about.. not cuz hes radio/mtv but because hes livin in ancient history with womens rights...thats another thread though)...i do think it will be a different crowd this year... alot of people are deciding to check out cheaper festivals that have the lineup you would expect at roo... let say it is 2010, if madonna, tool, and depeche mode are headlining and you put 2002 at 1 end and and did a timeline of roos lineups i think this year would be the turning point where it flipped... you can see it every year continuing in that direction.. away form what it is and towards whatever it is becoming... will it get to coachella level? i dont think so... bu ti do know that if they have a jam band drought next year that people will go elsewhere... and once the jam scene stops supporting it, it will have to go that route,who would pay 200+ to see 8 jambands when you can pay less then 150 to see some of the best jam lineups ever put together at wakarusa and especially 10klf.... this was roos free year where people bought their ticket out of its roo of course it will have the top jam band lineup of the year mentality.... next year there will be alot more people heading else where if they dont hook it up...and once that base leaves they will be bringing in madonnas, kid rock and all of that crap
I think anybody who respects the level of artistry that Radiohead, Death Cab, Sonic Youth and Beck bring to the table would be upset to hear that you feel they are in any way a step towards Madonna and Kid Rock. I think that is what the "jam" argument is missing: respect for what these bands already are and do.
I hate the fact that there are people who don't like music just because it is "mainstream" and other people like it. get over yourself...good music is good music. I hear people saying because of bands like Radiohead,Beck,Tom Petty ect. are making Bonnaroo too mainstream. F*ck that...all of those bands kick serious ass...I really don't care who ends up at Bonnaroo...I'll be to busy rockn out.
Post by Hipster Doofus on Mar 30, 2006 19:02:09 GMT -5
iskew said:
I think anybody who respects the level of artistry that Radiohead, Death Cab, Sonic Youth and Beck bring to the table would be upset to hear that you feel they are in any way a step towards Madonna and Kid Rock. I think that is what the "jam" argument is missing: respect for what these bands already are and do.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 30, 2006 19:07:38 GMT -5
well i think it is clear that they are taking a step in a differenet direction...and to me it is obviously a more mainstream direction...maybe these bands arent as mainstream as what you would consider typical mtv/radio crap....but when compared to the lineups of past this is by far the most main stream.. by far the least amount of jam bands, i dont have aproblem with these bands being there and doing their thing, but i do have a problem with a lineup that seems geared towards that type of music as opposed to they type of muic the lineup has been geared for in the past, im not trying to compare these specific bands to madonna just saying that if thats where it ends up you will be able to look back and say that this was the lineup that drove the jam band roots that roo was built on elsewhere, and seriously once that is gone they will have to bust out the true mtv bands to keep attendance up-
Post by Hipster Doofus on Mar 30, 2006 19:13:10 GMT -5
keithk1055 said:
well i definetly wouldnt lump blues traveler, cypresshill and petty in wit dcfc.. thats taking it a bit far.....
Busted!
This was in response to my question, who do you consider mtv bands....
keithk1055 said:
i consider bands that were made by mtv, recieve playtime on mtv, and attract a more mainstream mtv type of fan... alot of these i am lookin forward to seeing and wouldnt generally call them mainstream mtv fans but when put together with the mtv lineup they are the main draw for that elementhere are what i consider the bands that have that effect
matisyahu death cab for cutie dresden dolls common bright eyes tom petty (one of my favs.. cant wait to see) beck (one of my favs..cant wait to see) blues traveler(cant wait to see) radiohead (may not currently get much mtv playtime but are a major headline spot used to anchor the show for the mtv fanbase) rusted root could maybe get hrown in there for send me on my way(cant wait to see them also) phil and friends...just kiddin.. but im sure there might be a couple that im missing.. i dont watch mtv much... so there is 9 or 10 by my count
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 30, 2006 19:14:26 GMT -5
kimmy417 said:
I hate the fact that there are people who don't like music just because it is "mainstream" and other people like it. get over yourself...good music is good music. I hear people saying because of bands like Radiohead,Beck,Tom Petty ect. are making Bonnaroo too mainstream. F*ck that...all of those bands kick serious ass...I really don't care who ends up at Bonnaroo...I'll be to busy rockn out.
right.. not to be poopy.. but didnt you start that ultra flattering thread on my chemical romance???
and again i dont think anyone is really calling these bands mainstream (deathcab and matisyahu are) noone in there right mind would say that petty or beck are truly mainstream and i am hella excited to see them....lots of people try to boil it down to hating on bands and that is not what it is... as first time rooer i dont really expect you to understand what the vibe and community are all about... you have to experience it....and that community is undeniably changing... for better or worse i dont know...but i have a feeling it is for the worse
Last Edit: Mar 30, 2006 19:16:29 GMT -5 by keithk1055 - Back to Top
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 30, 2006 19:26:59 GMT -5
... alot of these i am lookin forward to seeing and wouldnt generally call them mainstream mtv fans but when put together with the mtv lineup they are the main draw for that elementhere are what i consider the bands that have that effect
i i would say that both of those quotes agree with eachother... i wonder if you actually read or if you just ignore the words that you dont want to see..... i said that dcfc is mainstream...that i dont think tom petty blues traveler and beck should be lumped into the dcfc section, that would be a sin of the greatest order... how ever i do stand by my quote that you say is contrast to the other one but they say the same thing...dcfc,brighteyes,dresden dolls, and matisyahu are mainstream, and that petty, radiohead ,beck and bluestraveler fall into the other category of the quote which i have put in bold letters at the top of this post.... alot of you really need to work on your reading comprehension
Last Edit: Mar 30, 2006 19:27:20 GMT -5 by keithk1055 - Back to Top
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 30, 2006 19:35:26 GMT -5
keithk1055 said:
... alot of these i am lookin forward to seeing and wouldnt generally call them mainstream mtv fans but when put together with the mtv lineup they are the main draw for that elementhere are what i consider the bands that have that effect
did you miss this part
actually that mainstream mtv fans was intended to be mainstream mtv bands... thats a typo but i still think you could get the jist of what i was saying..
Last Edit: Mar 30, 2006 19:37:26 GMT -5 by keithk1055 - Back to Top
Post by Hipster Doofus on Mar 30, 2006 19:39:53 GMT -5
I asked for your list of mtv bands...you listed 9 mtv bands....at the end of the post you said so there is 9 or 10 by my count.....how in the world are you going to contend that you didn't call petty and blues traveler mtv bands?
I wouldn't keep bolding that unintelligible mess of a quote anymore either. I can read it, but the proof is in the pudding.