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Instead of dirt and poison, we have rather chosen to fill our hives with honey and wax; thus furnishing mankind with the two noblest of things, which are sweetness and light.
I was not trying to post links, k. But I could try. Do you want me to? I am only saying lets not forget there are several sides.Not one. So lets not be sheep here. Lets all hope Obama is as great as everyone here says.
Instead of dirt and poison, we have rather chosen to fill our hives with honey and wax; thus furnishing mankind with the two noblest of things, which are sweetness and light.
What does anyone's faith have to do with their ability to run the country?
and this
I would have to say that the faith of a President does matter to some degree. Not so much in a Muslim vs. Christian way, but in how they let that faith affect their governance.
Bush has been the worst president ever and I think it is causing people to support Obama without question ... to the degree that we are jumping on people who bring up things about him.The only news station who questions him is Faux News - and we all know how fair and balanced they are not.But the sad truth is neither is CNN or MSNBC or ABC News. When Maya Soetoro-Ng, Obama's half sister says "My whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim" - I worry. When Obama said on 'This Week' "My Muslim faith" and had to be corrected - by the interviewer -who is a dem - I worry. When I see proof that he doctored his birth certificate so that it would not reflect his name (Barry Soetoro) and that it listed him as Muslim - I really do worry for our country. But the thing that really gets me worried is that to even question him and his history is to be labled as an idiot or a McCain supporter. Where do I fit? I question authority and always have.I now question whoever is holding the blinders. We need to question things - that is how we become better ... I just don't want us to become the 58th 'state' that Obama spoke of. I welcome education on what I have said. I want to believe in Obama and I want change.But it scares me how people who are not on the Obama wagon are evilized and no one is questioning that!!!
Wow, It cracks me up the undercover, or not so undercover, bigotry people have. It is like the dumb arse saying he is "half Muslim" He said he is Christian what does it matter from there. Plus..So what if he was a Muslim!! DO people really think that almost 50 years ago their was a Muslim plot to impregnate a white American women, leave her to have her son raised by her parents part of the time and with a step father part of the time, make him work to pay for his Ivy league collage and leave collage in debt, cover it all up and have him run for president. Wow wrap that aluminum foil around your head people if you think its that deep because the evil CIA rays are getting in your head...
Even if Obama's a Muslim, which he most likely is not, he is still less an extremist about it than Palin and her Christianity. He's certainly not out there arguing for carrying incest/rape babies to term or calling the Iraq war a task from God. Extremists are scary regardless of religion, and I consider Palin an extremist.
George W. Bush carried a majority of Islamic votes and endorsements over Al Gore in 2000. If all Muslims involved in politics are evil, what does that say?
clato - I would like to think I am tolerant of people who do not see things the same way as I do. That being said - I am fearful of extreme muslims who have been taught to misread the koran. Does that make me a bigot?
Instead of dirt and poison, we have rather chosen to fill our hives with honey and wax; thus furnishing mankind with the two noblest of things, which are sweetness and light.
I noticed Palin is making remarks about Obama whating to pull out of Iraq early. She stated "pulling out early doesnt work" Wow, there are so many jokes in that one..
clato - I would like to think I am tolerant of people who do not see things the same way as I do. That being said - I am fearful of extreme Muslims who have been taught to misread the koran. Does that make me a bigot?
When there is assumptions that someone is Muslim with suggestions he is extreme would be bigot. To bring up his religion would to suggest "he is different." Maybe not a bigot but questionable tactics. Right wing Christians scare the hell out of me. Bombing abortion clinics, praising criminals who shoot MD's, protesting funerals of gay persons, and eating lunch with John McCain but they are not the average christian. Look at all the screwed up things white male christians have done to the poeple of this country. I would say or assume all white male christians are here to harm.
The other night a doc was on HBO called "hacking democracy" - that is what has really got me thinking about our system and how easily it can be manipulated.
clato-I hope you did not mean that it is questionable or a "tactic" to suggest someone is different?
Instead of dirt and poison, we have rather chosen to fill our hives with honey and wax; thus furnishing mankind with the two noblest of things, which are sweetness and light.
clato-I hope you did not mean that it is questionable or a "tactic" to suggest someone is different?
It's a tactic if you're painting a candidate as Other, when divisive politics favor the candidate from one particular party. It's a tactic if it detracts from a legitimate discussion of issues; especially at a time when a particular candidate is losing big on issues.
McCain got booed the other day at a Minnesota town hall... because he corrected a woman who called Obama "an Arab" and told those in attendance that Obama was a decent man whose presidency they didn't have to fear.
Now, the only rationales for McCain support I've seen in this thread are "Obama's going to take my guns" and "Obama's a Muslim." Both explanations are decidedly Obama-negative while completely lacking McCain-positive content. What's the deal here?
There has to be an Inforoo McCain supporter willing to discuss McCain positively instead of just discussing Obama negatively. Surely, they'd like to speak up and not give the impression that all pro-McCain people aren't that way only because they're anti-Obama... and my karma finger's waiting for them if they are.
I am fearful of extreme muslims who have been taught to misread the koran. Does that make me a bigot?
If you fear a entire group that is, by definition, bigotry.
People of all (or no) faith will always be taught to kill. Religion is just one of innumerable variable in the equation.
The entire subject of his religion is based on irrational fear and bigotry. Who cares what his religion is? The subject is raised only to incite inate fears of "the other." And bring up the fears and emotional responses associated with 9/11. In other words, the Muslim question is raised solely to shut down the thought processes. That's the only way a Republican can win this election.
IMHO, fearing Muslims is no different than people's fear of left handed persons many years ago.
Republicans win by fear. That's the only reason this is a discussion.
It would be a tactic to paint someone ovar all as "bad" or "anti-US" Not overtly but coming up to the line. When suggesting muslim but in a bad way or the fact that you are saying he is "different." Or introducing him by saying his middle name a little louder then the rest of his name and then claiming "whats wrong with saying a mans middle name" These are tactics to seperate Obama from people. To make him look "different". "Different" is a tactic. When in the end he is no different then most americains.
kdogg, troo and clato - I am not fearful of Muslims. I fear extremist. I just see he is hiding this part of himself and would respect him more if he just came out with it. If it is no big deal, tell it. If an American Christian were to run for office in a Muslim country and said he was Muslim - but stories of his true beliefs came out would it not be a story? I knew a couple of Muslim guys in college - they were smart and likeable. I did not fear them. I am not here to promote McCain. My guy did not get to debate, he was not rich enough. I have heard people use Obama's middle name and frankly - I thought it a cheap shot. dcbee-I looked at the birth certificate the Obama camp provided.Bright and shiny new - does not look at all like the aged tan original with his other name on it. So, kdogg - go ahead and be a smiter for Obama, but it does drive people like me in the closet - knowing our opinions would be looked down on here - You except open-mindedness only from those that agree with you? I have a card on my wall that says "If everyone is thinking alike then someone isn't thinking" - I do not fit into any certain slot and I just want to make an informed choice. You all have given me some things to think about.
Instead of dirt and poison, we have rather chosen to fill our hives with honey and wax; thus furnishing mankind with the two noblest of things, which are sweetness and light.
I personally cannot judge any group of people. I do not fear any group, not child molesters, serial killer, psychopaths, nor extremists. I feel you must judge people one at a time. Judging en masse in intellectual laziness. But I have feared individuals.
As for Obama hiding things, I see no evidence of that. His father was Muslim and he went to a State school in a Muslim country. That is not evidence in being Muslim. I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools but I am not Catholic. Again, you cannot judge a man by his parents.
And as for a Christian running in a Muslim country, I like to think America holds itself to a higher standard (or did so before Bush.) The wrongful thoughts, ideas and actions of others does not justify our thinking, believing or doing wrong.
And regarding the birth certificate, mine is "bright and shiny" and I'm almost 47. I had to get my BC when I needed a passport as my parent lost mine. It is more common than not that BC's are newer that the person. Especially if both your mother and father are absent or dead, like Obama. In any case, the shiny BC is meaningless evidence erroniously used to justify a concluson already arrived at. In reality it means nothing.
I do agree that most people form conclusions and then look for evidence to support that conclusion (like your card implies about independent thinking.) I just fear you are doing the same.
I would have to say that the faith of a President does matter to some degree. Not so much in a Muslim vs. Christian way, but in how they let that faith affect their governance.
Totally agree with this. I don't care what religion my president is, what I don't like is the blurring of church and state.
Post by Hipster Doofus on Oct 13, 2008 9:43:23 GMT -5
I haven't read any of this thread, but I'm going to be staying at the same resort near Toledo, OH that Obama is at. I'm headed there tonight, staying through friday, and he's already there, leaving on Wednesday. Security is probably going to be a bitch, but that would be neat if I ran into him, or if our company works out a little meeting! Of course, I'm sure he'll be secluded, and our company is probably pro-mccain.
I just see he is hiding this part of himself and would respect him more if he just came out with it. If it is no big deal, tell it. If an American Christian were to run for office in a Muslim country and said he was Muslim - but stories of his true beliefs came out would it not be a story?
I don't have a problem with you not liking Obama but your statements elude to other things. As above "his true religion" you have already tied him, with this statement, to some kind of covert Muslim. You also put in words like "extreme." That would be leading statements toward the idea he is a dishonest extremist Muslim.
READ his policies and then post what you don't like about them that will get you my respect. I have read McCain's, Ron Paul's and others policy statements on top of Obamas. I am always willing to compare likes and dislikes.
Post by Steel_City_X on Oct 13, 2008 9:47:53 GMT -5
Glad to see people are thinking about this election. This could start me into a research paper.
I think that people around the world are frightened, and or terrified about anyone with extremist views and actions.
I want a country where there is a vision of people living in healthy, clean, safe, attractive environments. I have left a mainstream church (christian) because they were more interested in spending a week spending money to travel somewhere far away to help people, rather than spend 52 weeks a year helping to improve their own community. They wanted "sound bite" christianity.
I was left by a woman who became "born again" but could/would not accept my broader view of religion, individuals right to choice, and a multitude of manners of practice. She still struggles to find the right man that fulfills her view of religion - just married for third time.
I am not too concerned about the religion/political beliefs of people, unless they are trying to tell me my beliefs are wrong and I must subscribe to their own system.
[WARNING - possible plot/belief spoiler] We all evolve through time in terms of our beliefs - we probably all believed in the easter bunny and santa claus at sometime in our lives.
Maybe I am not lucky enough to believe in something so strongly that I am willing to kill for it. I think that there is a difference between willing to die for something and willing to kill for it. Extremists are those who will kill for their beliefs. Faithful are those who will die for their beliefs.
I am not concerned about the religious beliefs of McCain or Obama. I am more concerned with knowing if they are to my statement above extremists or faithful to their personal beliefs. I would rather have the faithful leading this country. Someone who has a core set of values and principles that guide them everyday of their lives.
I have worked in cooperative environments and in those where the boss practices the "it's my way or the highway". I think that in the first environment everyone succeeds and its typically better off. In the latter, the boss is focussed on making things happen for him/her self, not the betterment of the group.
Weather or not I written anything that means anything to anyone other than myself, not really concerned, but this did allow me to think through some of my opinions.
I know who I am voting for in November. Maybe because I still remember fondly my time working in the low income neighborhoods of my community. I loved the fact that I surprised people because they did not think of someone like me - middle aged white guy was concerned and willing to try to help them make their lives better.
Oh, yes, I was and still am in some manner a community organizer. I even was a member of a discussion board on neighborhood planning at a conference in NYC regarding establishing community groups. My concern is equally on the condition of others as it is on my own.
Please keep the discussion alive and encourage everyone you know to vote in November. That way, you can either claim that you were part of what happens afterwards, rather than having no right to complain about who got elected and their decisions over the next four years because you did not vote.
That right, if you don't vote, you have no right to complain. If you vote and your guy does not win, at least you have the right to believe that the other guy would not have made decisions you don't agree with.
We are in a time of trouble in the world given the failures of the speculative financial/investment markets. The wagon is in the ditch, and we all need to focus more on getting it out of the ditch. We can fight over who gets to lead the oxen later, once the wagon is out of the ditch.
Happy Columbus day, or the celebration of an Italian who was hired by the Spanish to do a dirty job, or the event that led to the original invasion of north america by illegal immigrants.
Glad to see people are thinking about this election. This could start me into a research paper.
I think that people around the world are frightened, and or terrified about anyone with extremist views and actions.
I want a country where there is a vision of people living in healthy, clean, safe, attractive environments. I have left a mainstream church (christian) because they were more interested in spending a week spending money to travel somewhere far away to help people, rather than spend 52 weeks a year helping to improve their own community. They wanted "sound bite" christianity.
I was left by a woman who became "born again" but could/would not accept my broader view of religion, individuals right to choice, and a multitude of manners of practice. She still struggles to find the right man that fulfills her view of religion - just married for third time.
I am not too concerned about the religion/political beliefs of people, unless they are trying to tell me my beliefs are wrong and I must subscribe to their own system.
[WARNING - possible plot/belief spoiler] We all evolve through time in terms of our beliefs - we probably all believed in the easter bunny and santa claus at sometime in our lives.
Maybe I am not lucky enough to believe in something so strongly that I am willing to kill for it. I think that there is a difference between willing to die for something and willing to kill for it. Extremists are those who will kill for their beliefs. Faithful are those who will die for their beliefs.
I am not concerned about the religious beliefs of McCain or Obama. I am more concerned with knowing if they are to my statement above extremists or faithful to their personal beliefs. I would rather have the faithful leading this country. Someone who has a core set of values and principles that guide them everyday of their lives.
I have worked in cooperative environments and in those where the boss practices the "it's my way or the highway". I think that in the first environment everyone succeeds and its typically better off. In the latter, the boss is focussed on making things happen for him/her self, not the betterment of the group.
Weather or not I written anything that means anything to anyone other than myself, not really concerned, but this did allow me to think through some of my opinions.
I know who I am voting for in November. Maybe because I still remember fondly my time working in the low income neighborhoods of my community. I loved the fact that I surprised people because they did not think of someone like me - middle aged white guy was concerned and willing to try to help them make their lives better.
Oh, yes, I was and still am in some manner a community organizer. I even was a member of a discussion board on neighborhood planning at a conference in NYC regarding establishing community groups. My concern is equally on the condition of others as it is on my own.
Please keep the discussion alive and encourage everyone you know to vote in November. That way, you can either claim that you were part of what happens afterwards, rather than having no right to complain about who got elected and their decisions over the next four years because you did not vote.
That right, if you don't vote, you have no right to complain. If you vote and your guy does not win, at least you have the right to believe that the other guy would not have made decisions you don't agree with.
We are in a time of trouble in the world given the failures of the speculative financial/investment markets. The wagon is in the ditch, and we all need to focus more on getting it out of the ditch. We can fight over who gets to lead the oxen later, once the wagon is out of the ditch.
Happy Columbus day, or the celebration of an Italian who was hired by the Spanish to do a dirty job, or the event that led to the original invasion of north america by illegal immigrants.
This is all worth reading, but I emboldened the statement I found especially true and wise. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Last Edit: Oct 13, 2008 10:09:00 GMT -5 by dudezer47 - Back to Top
Nice post Steel_City_X. But come on, the "if you don't vote, you have no right to complain" thing drives me insane!!! Voting is a right, not an obligation. You have a choice in this country to vote or to not vote. Just because you choose not to vote does not mean you have to sit around and take whatever happens. I hate that statement almost as much as "Love it, or leave it" My right to vote or not vote or hate certain aspects of this country is what it was founded on in the first place.