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I figure since the election is over, we can dedicate this thread to specifically talking about President-elect Obama, his potential Secretarial appointments, and any other areas of interest.
Anywho, I really like Obama's chief for Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel. Apparently, a popular nickname for him is "Rahmbo". Hes 100% pro-choice and proposed that Executive money to Cheney be cut off when Cheney tried to claim he was exempt from any kind of Executive rules.
I'm excited. I'm also concerned that people expect a miracle on day one. He has a hard climb ahead. So many challenges left after the W years. Not to mention trying to piece the Constitution back together.
I like the choice of Rahmbo as well. I've heard my former governer, Tom Vilsack, could be up for Agriculture. I think Richardson should get either Secretary of State or Ambassador to the U.N.
Post by luciddream5 on Nov 7, 2008 14:56:44 GMT -5
I am excited too. He does have a lot of work to do...a lot of errors to fix. George Bush told Obama recently that he would make it so that Obama can make a smooth transition into the White House. But to me...that is clearly impossible. I really don't expect him to pull off a miracle on day one...but I am excited to see him come into office. I am excited to hear his State of the Union speeches and seeing him in the oval office. I'll just be really happy to know that George Bush won't be there any more. Thank you!!!
OMGZ HE IS GONNA TAKE OUR GUNZ AND OUR RELIGION AND TERRISTS WILL RUN WILD IN THE STREETS AND IMPOSE SHARIA LAW. ALSO FORCED ABORTIONS AND SOCIALISM. USSA AMIRITE?!?!?
Anyway, I'm really excited. I have been a supporter of his for a long time, and I'm looking forward to the inauguration. He has a long road, but with the help of congress he can do some really great things.
Also, have you seen www.change.gov ? It's pretty interesting.
I'm excited. I'm also concerned that people expect a miracle on day one. He has a hard climb ahead. So many challenges left after the W years. Not to mention trying to piece the Constitution back together.
I like the choice of Rahmbo as well. I've heard my former governer, Tom Vilsack, could be up for Agriculture. I think Richardson should get either Secretary of State or Ambassador to the U.N.
I'm sure Vilsack would be a fine Sec. AG, but if not him, I'd like to see Willie Nelson in that office (see Farm Aid, not just for his pro-corn stance) . (1) For Sec. State Richardson is a great choice. (1) And of course George "dubya" Bush is the obvious choice for U.N. Ambassador in a bi-partisan Obama cabinet.(2)
Post by steveternal on Nov 8, 2008 15:57:38 GMT -5
My jaw dropped when my wife told me about www.change.gov. I thought Obama might make a good president, but now I'm thinking he may go down as one of the greatest of American presidents. Of course I don't want to get my hopes too high... I'm still jaded by the usual slew of politicians who promise change and don't deliver.
On another note, Obama will only have been in office for two days before the annual March for Life-- and as a pro-lifer, I'll be there. That might be interesting.
On another note, Obama will only have been in office for two days before the annual March for Life-- and as a pro-lifer, I'll be there. That might be interesting.
I know that several violent pro-life organizations are planning to protest the inauguration. I am interested to see how the pro-lifers handle March for Life. I know that several organizations who don't have the best of reputations are planning on attending.
As for me, I'm just concerned that clinic violence is going to escalate now that the pro-lifers don't have someone in their corner in the White House. They know they can't push a challenge to Roe v. Wade through, so it worries me that some may turn to violence.
(Not to diss your pro life stance, steve. It's too bad there can't be more cool pro-lifers...)
Post by steveternal on Nov 10, 2008 22:42:39 GMT -5
Right, and of course the radical, violent groups should not be taken lightly, but do remember that it is a very, very small fringe minority. Any pro-life person with two brain cells knows that violence is not the answer, especially when we are looking to stop what we perceive as violence in the first place. Hypocritical is just one of the milder words to call such a position. But that said, I don't really see violence escalating with a democratic government. I need to go check the data, but I don't think the political movements in Washington have been shown to have an effect on the violent fringe activities of so-called "pro-lifers" (I'm trying not to even use the same term to describe them...). I've been going to the March for Life since I was a little boy, and I can say that while I always see thousands of earnest and compassionate people there, I can always see some nutjobs, too. With any given cause, it's sometimes sobering to realize who your bedfellows are. But I'm sure pro-choice people experience that as well!
Post by Fishing Maniac on Nov 11, 2008 0:08:45 GMT -5
To make reference to "violent pro-lifers" is stupid and close minded. There have been far fewer acts of "pro-life" violence than there have been Islamic violence. It is however, PC to describe Islamic terrorism (which has affect the globe for decades) as a perversion of Islamic beliefs. Yet to single out a significantly small minority within a shared opinion on an issue is completely acceptable? That's a complete inflammatory cop out and you know it.
If you disagree with a movement that's fine, but don't be inflammatory in your attacks on it. To do so is inherently dishonest. When is the last time that a significant act of violence was committed by a "pro-life" organization? Or condoned by the majority of them? (The answer to the latter question would be NEVER.)
For that matter the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are inherently dishonest (IMO). No one is opposed to either life or choice and to insinuate that your political opponent is opposed to either is a lie. I therefore ask that all of you take heed of your words with far greater gravity regardless of your standpoint on this issue. State what your opinion is. Do not use dishonest rhetoric that you learned from dishonest politicians (They are all dishonest - both parties, 100%). Cut the bullshit really. Besides, if abortion laws didn't change under Bush, they won't now.
Now since this is not an abortion thread, let me say this: I don't like Obama on many levels. I would say the same about McCain however. I hope Obama does a good job for the country. I am not confident that he will. I still want him to do so. That is ALL that matters.
While I ABSOLUTELY agree with 99% of your post.....and agree that violent pro-lifers are INDEED the tinest of minorities and are NOT condoned by the VAST VAST majority of the rest of the movement....living in Alabama I have to point out one of the MOST horrific incidents of pro-life violence that has ever taken place...and it took place here at an abortion clinic in Birmingham. A security guard/off duty policeman was killed and a nurse was maimed horrifically for the rest of her life...and it was by pure luck that no one else was hurt. These things DO happen...and the person responsible escaped justice with the help of MANY people for MANY years because he was seen as a "sympathetic" figure.
I really like Obama's plans for the country thus far. I wasn't completely sold on him until I saw how much his supporters were united together on November 4. There are some issues I really agree with. First, he's finally going to bring prisoners of war being held in Guantanamo Bay to court.
To make reference to "violent pro-lifers" is stupid and close minded. There have been far fewer acts of "pro-life" violence than there have been Islamic violence. It is however, PC to describe Islamic terrorism (which has affect the globe for decades) as a perversion of Islamic beliefs. Yet to single out a significantly small minority within a shared opinion on an issue is completely acceptable? That's a complete inflammatory cop out and you know it.
If you disagree with a movement that's fine, but don't be inflammatory in your attacks on it. To do so is inherently dishonest. When is the last time that a significant act of violence was committed by a "pro-life" organization? Or condoned by the majority of them? (The answer to the latter question would be NEVER.)
For that matter the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are inherently dishonest (IMO). No one is opposed to either life or choice and to insinuate that your political opponent is opposed to either is a lie. I therefore ask that all of you take heed of your words with far greater gravity regardless of your standpoint on this issue. State what your opinion is. Do not use dishonest rhetoric that you learned from dishonest politicians (They are all dishonest - both parties, 100%). Cut the bullhonkey really. Besides, if abortion laws didn't change under Bush, they won't now.
Now since this is not an abortion thread, let me say this: I don't like Obama on many levels. I would say the same about McCain however. I hope Obama does a good job for the country. I am not confident that he will. I still want him to do so. That is ALL that matters.
I'd like to reply to the first part of this post, but honestly I'm not even sure what you're driving at. I can at least respond to the second part. Yes, the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" could be viewed as deliberately, even maliciously loaded. On the other hand, they do accurately illustrate what each side considers most important in the abortion issue: those against hold the presumed life of the unborn at top priority, and those in favor believe the woman carrying the pregnancy should have the freedom to choose what she wants to do with it. You're right, that pro-lifers are also pro-choice and vice versa-- only the most cynical or extreme on either side would seriously contend otherwise. And I think that's the other part of the issue, that both sides are aware of what the titles mean; there's full disclosure going on. If both parties come to the table with a mutual agreement of understanding what the titles really mean, then it's a non-issue, regardless of how inflammatory they might sound out of context. They are imperfect, but they are what they are. Don't get pissy with us about it.
If you're pro-life, I repsect that. That's your decision.
However, I do feel like I have a little bit more experience with "violent pro-lifers"...I have had people come to my place of work (I work at a clinic, yes) and call me a whore, a nazi, a child of satan, ugly, said I have no heart, said I have no soul....I could go on for days. Then, when I leave they tell me they love me and that Jesus loves me. Just because you claim to be peaceful does not mean that you ARE. These protesters also threw a rock through one of our windows, made multiple threats of violence, and have even made death threats. All while claiming to stage a "peaceful protest". There's more violence than people think...and I'm not even talking about the bombing, the murder of doctors, etc. I'm talking about arson, tresspass, stalking, harassment, vandalism...it happens EVERY DAY at clinics across the nation. You don't understand what it's like until you have to deal with it every day.
Like I said, I respect your decision to be pro-life...that's your decision. But when you come to my clinic and yell insults at me, and threaten violence and threaten my life...then YES, you are a violent pro-lifer.
It does stress me out that clinic violence will escalate - several militant groups have already threatened it since the election. At my clinic, protests and harassment have escalated as well. It's a very real possibility that we have to deal with.
And anyway, I think we should get back to the Obama discussion. That's way more interesting.
Now since this is not an abortion thread, let me say this: I don't like Obama on many levels. I would say the same about McCain however. I hope Obama does a good job for the country. I am not confident that he will. I still want him to do so. That is ALL that matters.
im sure that i many will disagree with me, but these are my views which i am entitled to, and i feel strongly about them
as far as parties are concerned, i am split right down the middle...i am very liberal on social issues, but extremely conservative on fiscal issues...i do not believe that it is patriotic to pay more taxes because you make more than most other people (i believe that everyone should pay the same percentage, so it is fair), after all, you are only what you make of yourself
my father was born in a foreign country to extremely poor parents...he moved to this country (legally) when he was young...four children in one bedroom, and another for the parents was all they had...he made something of himself, because he worked for it...he took out loans for college (as well as worked full-time) and medical school, because nobody was there to help him...it took many years to pay everything back, as im sure that a lot of your parents may have had similar experiences regarding school...he worked and always provided for us, but we were not living in luxury...about three years ago, he opened his own clinic, paid for everything by himself...yes, he is doing well now, but HE STRUGGLED FOR MANY YEARS for everything that he has because he was determined to make it...as it is right now, a huge amount of his pay goes towards taxes...now, with obama coming into power, that huge amount of taxes will become even that much more
now, working in his clinic, i see all the fraud that comes with trying help people out...about 95% of the patients that come in are on medicaid, food stamps, subsidized housing, welfare, etc...i understand there are people that really do need help, but a good chunk of these patients wear or have jordan shoes, coach purses, iphones and various other smart phones, rims that probably cost about several months rent, nba season tickets (lowest priced seats, but still a luxury, not a necessity), season passes to six flags AND seaworld, and the list goes on...one of my co-workers has two children, one of which was taken off medicaid because between the mother's and father's income they dont qualify for both kids to be on medicaid...she went to the medicaid office to see what she could do, and they told her "if you want to have your other child receive medicaid, have another child or quit your job"...on top of that, many of these mothers have like a whole flock of kids (i see their medicaid forms with all the kids (many with kids of multiple fathers) names listed on them)...one such mother has EIGHT kids, from at least three fathers...now, im not for setting a limit to family sizes, but if they cant even afford one or two kids, i do not believe they should be having kids to fill a van...no body is putting guns to their heads and making them have babies, but yet the country pays for them to keep it up...im all for helping people, but come on this is rediculous, there has to be better regulation of these programs or else it will turn into another fanny mae-type situation...its not right for these people to have their little luxuries at the expense of everyone else...and if the people of one clinic spend their money so carefree, imagine what it is like at all the other clinics across the country...many people collecting government money to pay bills, while most of what they make at their jobs is wasted on frivolous items
the reason these people need these programs is because they lack initiative...why strive to make yourself better, when you know the government will bail you out...my father, obama, colin powell and condy rice all worked to get where they are (i used three African-Americans to illustrate that there is no barrier, including color, if you really want to make something of yourself)...i truly believe that if you want something, you can get it...however, there is this message of government paying for everything, and so these people will never try to acheive more
all in all, i do not believe we should PUNISH those who make something of themselves, only to help those who, not all but many, will abuse the help only for their meager gains...just my two cents
and for the sake of the country, i do wish obama the best
I just watched the documentary "Lake of Fire" and would strongly recommend it. If there was one thing I took away from it, was that abortion is far more than just terminating a pregnancy. It goes into womens-lib issues, god, etc. There were interviews with ethics professors, religious groups, clinic workers and doctors, and women who were getting abortions. It detailed the murders of several doctors, beginning with Dr. Gunn in FL. It also had "Roe" - who has joined a religious organization and changed her stance on the issue.
Personally, I am pro-choice.
One clinic worker said "A miscarriage is what happens when your body isn't ready for a pregnancy, and an abortion is what happens when the rest of you isn't ready".
i believe that everyone should pay the same percentage, so it is fair
I agree on this principle. However, this is NEVER going to happen. Simply because if we were to lower taxes for higher brackets, we would have to RAISE TAXES for everyone else. If we were to just level all taxes to the 25% bracket, the federal budget would be cut nearly in half.
I just find it funny that people are up in arms about this "tax increase" for those making $250k+ a year. The increased amount is the same as the tax CUT they got in 2001.
Last Edit: Nov 12, 2008 9:37:55 GMT -5 by MrKC - Back to Top
I just watched the documentary "Lake of Fire" and would strongly recommend it. If there was one thing I took away from it, was that abortion is far more than just terminating a pregnancy. It goes into womens-lib issues, god, etc. There were interviews with ethics professors, religious groups, clinic workers and doctors, and women who were getting abortions. It detailed the murders of several doctors, beginning with Dr. Gunn in FL. It also had "Roe" - who has joined a religious organization and changed her stance on the issue.
Personally, I am pro-choice.
One clinic worker said "A miscarriage is what happens when your body isn't ready for a pregnancy, and an abortion is what happens when the rest of you isn't ready".
Yes, Lake of Fire is a VERY good documentary. I highly recommend it. It's a little hard to find, however.
I am interested to see who Obama appoints to his cabinet. There have been a lot of white male names floating around, and I was hoping for a little bit more diversity from him. I've also heard the Kathleen Sibelius was going to head the DNC, and that Dean was going to step down.
Post by steveternal on Nov 12, 2008 9:47:19 GMT -5
I just want to say that I never meant this to become an "abortion thread". I apologize for mentioning it in the first place. I was just arguing about nomenclature, not about actually being for or against legal abortions. I'm more than happy to move on, and I hope we can change the title of the thread back. That's change I can believe in!
My feeling on abortion is that it is a public health issue. If you are to make abortion illegal, you would then have 16 yr. old girls going to back-alley butchers getting killed trying to terminate the pregnancy. Like druqs, even though its illegal doesn't mean people won't do it. They'll still do it, only then it won't be under a doctor's supervision.
It also angers me when people inject religion into their reason for being pro-life. I'm cool if you want to be pro-life (and aren't we all? No one's really pro-death or anti-choice). But religion should have nothing to do with it.
I think that if you're pro-life, you should put your name on a list. And instead of abortions, teen girls and other unwilling parents should just come to your house and drop the baby off on your doorstep. Then you can raise a child that you were unprepared/unwilling to raise.
Ok, I don't really believe that because it doesn't address the fact that if you're going have sex you should be responsible and understand the consequences. But I do think it changes the perspective a bit.
I just want to say that I never meant this to become an "abortion thread". I apologize for mentioning it in the first place. I was just arguing about nomenclature, not about actually being for or against legal abortions. I'm more than happy to move on, and I hope we can change the title of the thread back. That's change I can believe in!
Agreed agreed agreed. I apologize for sparking up an abortion debate as well!
Let's get back to what's more important, which is how Obama plans to rebuild and change our country for the better!
My feeling on abortion is that it is a public health issue. If you are to make abortion illegal, you would then have 16 yr. old girls going to back-alley butchers getting killed trying to terminate the pregnancy. Like druqs, even though its illegal doesn't mean people won't do it. They'll still do it, only then it won't be under a doctor's supervision.
something else I learned (btw, Lake of Fire is on Netflix for those that are interested)
when abortion was illegal, the only way to get one was to save the life of the mother. So the so-called coathanger abortions were not really abortions at all - the point was to cause bleeding. This would allow the woman to go to the hospital and get an abortion within the limits of the law. This kind of practice (either through hemorrhage or infection) ended up being the leading cause of death for child-bearing age women.
the other techniques included douching with bleach, soap, and other liquids that also could result in death due to an air embolism, fat embolism, or just chemical shock.
Now since this is not an abortion thread, let me say this: I don't like Obama on many levels. I would say the same about McCain however. I hope Obama does a good job for the country. I am not confident that he will. I still want him to do so. That is ALL that matters.
im sure that i many will disagree with me, but these are my views which i am entitled to, and i feel strongly about them
as far as parties are concerned, i am split right down the middle...i am very liberal on social issues, but extremely conservative on fiscal issues...i do not believe that it is patriotic to pay more taxes because you make more than most other people (i believe that everyone should pay the same percentage, so it is fair), after all, you are only what you make of yourself
my father was born in a foreign country to extremely poor parents...he moved to this country (legally) when he was young...four children in one bedroom, and another for the parents was all they had...he made something of himself, because he worked for it...he took out loans for college (as well as worked full-time) and medical school, because nobody was there to help him...it took many years to pay everything back, as im sure that a lot of your parents may have had similar experiences regarding school...he worked and always provided for us, but we were not living in luxury...about three years ago, he opened his own clinic, paid for everything by himself...yes, he is doing well now, but HE STRUGGLED FOR MANY YEARS for everything that he has because he was determined to make it...as it is right now, a huge amount of his pay goes towards taxes...now, with obama coming into power, that huge amount of taxes will become even that much more
now, working in his clinic, i see all the fraud that comes with trying help people out...about 95% of the patients that come in are on medicaid, food stamps, subsidized housing, welfare, etc...i understand there are people that really do need help, but a good chunk of these patients wear or have jordan shoes, coach purses, iphones and various other smart phones, rims that probably cost about several months rent, nba season tickets (lowest priced seats, but still a luxury, not a necessity), season passes to six flags AND seaworld, and the list goes on...one of my co-workers has two children, one of which was taken off medicaid because between the mother's and father's income they dont qualify for both kids to be on medicaid...she went to the medicaid office to see what she could do, and they told her "if you want to have your other child receive medicaid, have another child or quit your job"...on top of that, many of these mothers have like a whole flock of kids (i see their medicaid forms with all the kids (many with kids of multiple fathers) names listed on them)...one such mother has EIGHT kids, from at least three fathers...now, im not for setting a limit to family sizes, but if they cant even afford one or two kids, i do not believe they should be having kids to fill a van...no body is putting guns to their heads and making them have babies, but yet the country pays for them to keep it up...im all for helping people, but come on this is rediculous, there has to be better regulation of these programs or else it will turn into another fanny mae-type situation...its not right for these people to have their little luxuries at the expense of everyone else...and if the people of one clinic spend their money so carefree, imagine what it is like at all the other clinics across the country...many people collecting government money to pay bills, while most of what they make at their jobs is wasted on frivolous items
the reason these people need these programs is because they lack initiative...why strive to make yourself better, when you know the government will bail you out...my father, obama, colin powell and condy rice all worked to get where they are (i used three African-Americans to illustrate that there is no barrier, including color, if you really want to make something of yourself)...i truly believe that if you want something, you can get it...however, there is this message of government paying for everything, and so these people will never try to acheive more
all in all, i do not believe we should PUNISH those who make something of themselves, only to help those who, not all but many, will abuse the help only for their meager gains...just my two cents
and for the sake of the country, i do wish obama the best
THIS^^^^^^^I agree with all of this. Living in Mississippi has opened my eyes to the amount of fraud that goes on in the welfare system. I'll be damned is I am going to "sahre the wealth" that i worked my ass off to earn so that someone else can sit on welfare and milk the system and have the luxuries that I go without in order to pay the bills.