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MrKC-I have to disagree with you about America being center right. Some components of our pop culture may be liberal, but our laws, and, I believe, our values are for the most part conservative. Too conservative in some cases.
Edit: Grrr! I hate being at the top of the page. Let's hurry up and move on the next
Last Edit: Dec 18, 2009 17:04:48 GMT -5 by lbomb - Back to Top
Side note: While ACORN is far from a squeaky clean organization, I don't understand all the outrage. First voter REGISTRATION fraud. Not voter fraud. So Mickey Mouse was registered to vote? Did he actually vote? No. ACORN paid people to go out and get people to register to vote. Some ACORN workers just stayed home, played some video games, and made up a fake list of registers. Far from a "despicable organization." Now the prostitution video, well there's no excuse for that. If you get caught teaching someone how to scam the system (that directly funds you) then you're probably gonna get cut off.
I agree completely. The thing is.....almost every single institution or group or whatever has a shady side. There are always people involved trying to scam the system or break the law or get away with something bad. From religious leaders to politicians to acorn to any group.......there will usually be someone behind the scenes doing something they shouldn't do. That doesn't mean the whole group/organization is evil. It just means that certain people are bad.
^^^well then by that thought, ACORN must be full of bad apples. we all know the videos were not just from one branch of ACORN, but all over the US. the same would apply for the voter registration fraud.
now, this is not meant to bash, just trying to understand. if the healthcare bill is supposed to be so good, then why are congressmen and their families exempt/trying to get exempt from the plan? if its not good for them, then would that not mean that it is not good for the rest of the country? also, what is the purpose of spending all this money for a plan that will ultimately leave around 18 million people uninsured? wasnt the whole original purpose of the plan to get EVERYBODY insured? who will be the ones who are not covered, and who will get to make that call?
once again, not meant to bash, but would like some input from those who are die-hard supporters of THIS reform
One bad apple spoils the bunch. Or so the saying goes.
THIS reform kinda sucks. I mean, it's better than nothing but it's a far cry from what people envisioned. In the effort of bipartisanship, it got watered down and beaten up, resulting in what we have now. Congress has always been covered by that dreaded "Government run Healthcare." So I don't know why they would be trying to be exempt. The whole point was to reform our health care system in America. To make it so that if you paid your insurance every month for 20 years, the insurance company couldn't deny you care when you actually needed it. Covering 46 million uninsured was definitely a goal but it looks like we have to settle for covering 28 million. I don't know who are the ones covered/not covered or how the criteria works.
I'm inclined to disagree with your assessment that "this reform is better than nothing."
I think we'd be better off scrapping this altogether and starting anew. This doesn't seem like reform so much as it is a mandate to purchase something from the private sector.
I believe we'd probably be better off if states received federal funding/grants to administer health programs for a while, rather than have it imposed from the federal level. Surely fifty states taking varied approaches to the issue would generate some better ideas and models to later be implemented on a national level.
the same would apply for the voter registration fraud.
Can you explain how voter registration fraud is bad? If they were just forms for registering and those fake people didn't actually vote then what is the problem? I don't understand.
KC, im would like to know what bipartisanship you are referring to. if no reps went along with the idea, how can it be bipartisan. unless you mean between liberal and moderate dems.
and kdogg, i am saying that i believe that ACORN as a whole is a dispicable organization. they are like a drug cartel that pays for libraries, schools, churches, etc to poor regions in order to gain approval from local communities. the way i see ACORN, they are a front, taking federal money, just to spread a liberal agenda. if they are taking money from the gov't, they should not be leaning towards any one direction.
If the Republicans in charge of government the past few decades would've spent money on libraries, schools, etc in poor areas... might it be fair to say you wouldn't have this ACORN thorn in your side today?
And I should assume you're for the elimination of the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives, judging by your post?
^As much as you hate ACORN, I hate The Family/Fellowship which is a right wing Christian organization, which preaches hate on global scale using taxpayer money. For instance they have used several "informational" trips to Uganda to push them to rewrite their homosexuailty law in severely draconian ways. For example being HIV positive is a automatic death penalty, and even speaking favorably about homosexuals will be a 5 year prison term.
So to sum up you do not like an organization that employed some poor people who slacked instead of doing their jobs. I mean the video thing is ridiculous, it is very obvious that they knew the person was not serious and they were just joking back. Over an organization that uses Christian values to repress people on a global scale, and uses their little DC house as a retreat for people like Stanford, and Ensign to cheat on their wives. Talk about misconduct and abuse of funds....
I will stick with the slackers, and people with a bad sense of humor myself. By the way the links below give the story on how one woman knew they were joking, and how the guy in TX reported them to the police after they left.
you do bring up some good points wolfman, and i was sure they would come. i cant defend the actions from the christian organization, and i too would consider them a dispicable organization. fair is fair.
however, with regards to the ACORN situation, whatelse can they say in order to try to save face? its like a person getting pulled over, the cop finds something illegal in the car, all of a sudden the person is like "thats not mine, i dont know how it got there". they realized they had been caught, and just tried to save face.
I watched the video it is pretty obvious the girl was not taking it seriously, and the man reported them to the police well before he put the video on the internet and started his push.
As to not supporting The Family does that mean then that you do not support the members of Congress who belong to it? If so you are going to have a hard time voting republican in TX next year.
Post by itrainmonkeys on Dec 22, 2009 17:36:57 GMT -5
jigawig....can you please answer my question.
Can you explain how voter registration fraud is bad? If they were just forms for registering and those fake people didn't actually vote then what is the problem? I don't understand.
Post by itrainmonkeys on Dec 22, 2009 17:42:48 GMT -5
I really want to know what is wrong with voter registration fraud? Like what did it really affect? What happened because of it? Did someone show up and try to vote as Mickey Mouse? I don't get it.
^^^bad? right now im at work, and i would like to take some time to write something out. however, it is unethical. and in my head, it shows intent towards bad actions. perhaps when im not at work and can write more, i will elaborate. hope this is satisfactory for now.
The people who registered voters for ACORN were like seasonal employees. Part-time, with no long-term loyalty to the organization...
Put them on the streets with a clipboard and little/no supervision, after you tell them they only get paid if they sign up X number of people... of course there are some people who will take advantage of that.
I don't think that necessarily reflects on ACORN specifically so much as human nature in general...
Post by nitetimeritetime on Dec 22, 2009 18:22:59 GMT -5
Plus, ACORN employees collecting voter registration forms are legally obligated to turn in every single one of them (with very good reason), no matter what people have written on them. It's not the job of the person collecting the forms to determine which are valid. Now, find one example of ACORN trying to actually register one of these fake forms.
As for the videos, here a brief summary:
Of the 7 ACORN offices O'Keefe is known to have visited with his false child prostitution scheme, he acknowledged 5 and he released 5 heavily and dishonestly edited videos for those.
1. Of the five, one group -- the one in Baltimore -- apparently did try to help him with his fake plot (or maybe they were joking). Either way, that was inexcusable, and they were fired.
2. In San Bernadino one woman was friendly and helpful, but she said ACORN would have nothing to do with it.
3. In San Diego the man they spoke with called a relative who is a police detective who referred him to the officers involved in human trafficing. They asked for more information, and when he tried to get it he discovered O'Keefe was a fake.
4. and 5. In the NYC and DC offices, O'Keefe did not bring up child prostitutes.
6. In Philadelphia Acorn reported them to the police.
7. In LA the acorn rep tried to get the woman to go to a woman's shelter, but the workers said red flags were raised when she wouldn't take their help, and nothing came of the visit.
Philadelphia and LA are the two O'Keefe did not release the videos for.
In other words, ACORN had one office that went bad, and the people involved were fired. All the others did not try to help O'Keefe in his child prostitution business. Two called the police on him, at two he did not mention child prostitution, and one tried to help his girlfriend escape prostitution.
Post by itrainmonkeys on Dec 22, 2009 18:23:17 GMT -5
exactly. I don't see how some seasonal workers who tried to get out of work early by faking stuff should still be brought up today. I don't see how it affected anything.
if the healthcare bill is supposed to be so good, then why are congressmen and their families exempt/trying to get exempt from the plan? if its not good for them, then would that not mean that it is not good for the rest of the country?
Good point -- we should be getting the same free and extensive taxpayer-funded health care plans that our representatives in Congress already get right now. It's no surprise they don't want to give up the platinum-plated health care plans they have now, but we should be outraged that the Senate currently gets better free care than they have even proposed for the American people. We should be even more outraged that, as jigawig says, the Republicans refuse to support or even propose any reform at all, all while they enjoy the best free health care the government can offer.
free and extensive taxpayer-funded health care plans
Free AND taxpayer-funded? How does that work?
We must help those who want to help themselves, but why should we pay for those who don't? Why do we encourage dependence on the government instead of personal responsibility and accountability?
They don't pay for it, so it's free to them. Taxes pay for it. This isn't that difficult.
Why do we encourage dependence on the government instead of personal responsibility and accountability?
Exactly my point -- it's time to cut off those freeloaders in Congress now before they become dependent on the government and shirk their responsibilities.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Dec 22, 2009 21:24:04 GMT -5
I don't think anyone has said that universal health care -- or even the crap we seem to be getting -- would be free. But feel free to quote examples of people actually saying that.
I'm not avoiding your "question," which really isn't a question but a tired old Republican talking point based on faulty premises, I'm hinting at the absurdity of it.
I was quoting your example where you said "we should be getting the same free and extensive taxpayer-funded health care plans that our representatives in congress already get right now". Did I misunderstand you?
Your second comment in total bullsh!t. I don't concern myself with republican talking points; I am intelligent enough to have my own opinion, and to suggest otherwise is quite offensive. The question I asked is completely legitimate. Do you really, honestly believe that we should say, "hey, don't worry about studying, getting an education and a good job, and taking care of yourself, because the government is here to take care of you". That's exactly the message we send by providing publicly funded health care for everyone. I'm not okay with sitting in a waiting room with someone who is wearing designer clothes, texting on their blackberry, and listening to their iPod who then goes to the window and pays for their visit with medicaid. Why should I be forced to do that? I really would love to hear a good answer for this.
Of course it should be there for something, I never said anything about abolishing it, those are your words. But it shouldn't provide everything, or else why would there be any motivation to ever do anything for yourself? If we want the government to provide everything for it's citizens, then why don't we just abolish work and school?