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The whole terrorism analogy is pretty accurate if you ask me. I am not saying that you are a terrorist for being part of a union, just comparing the actions and outcomes.
Cmon, really? That analogy is asinine, yet you still try to defend it. You're entitled to your beliefs, but that is just nuts. As troo and wolfman jess said, by your definition any negotiation could be compared to terrorism. You can increase the font size of your posts all you want, but nothing you have said legitimately defends or explains this belief of yours.
"In both collective bargaining and terrorism, there are at least 2 sides that disagree about something.
In both collective bargaining and terrorism, there are potential causalities, be it hostages, people in and around target X, the general population of an area, or the clients of a particular business, there are always people who stand to loose something
In both collective bargaining and terrorism, there is a list of demands drawn up, whether its money, freeing someone from prison, a certain group of people leaving a specified area, an increase in pay, better medical insurance, or the reinstatement of a former employee
In both collective bargaining and terrorism, if the demands made are not met, the aforementioned potential causalities will suffer."
"In negotiation, there are at least 2 sides that disagree about something.
In negotiation, there are potential causalities, be it hostages, people in and around target X, the general population of an area, or the clients of a particular business, there are always people who stand to loose something
In negotiation, there is a list of demands drawn up, whether its money, freeing someone from prison, a certain group of people leaving a specified area, an increase in pay, better medical insurance, or the reinstatement of a former employee
In negotiation, if the demands made are not met, the aforementioned potential causalities will suffer."
Last Edit: Feb 23, 2011 18:45:38 GMT -5 by noeysasquatch - Back to Top
In typical negotiation, if you or the other party holds out, only the parties that are negotiating suffer, there are no other casualities. Which makes it not like terrorism. In collective bargaining, while the negotiating parties suffer, others suffer too.
IE: In a consumer driven business (IE Walmart): the consumers suffer, because they have to foot the bill of the unions demands (higher prices on products)
In a distribution driven business (IE beer and soda distributors): the businesses that depend on the distribution suffer because the product is not readily available to sell, but the consumers also suffer because they either cannot find the product, or pay more for it because its in high demand
In a production driven business (like an automobile manufacture): the businesses and distriburtors that deal with the producer will see higher prices, or less availability, and also likely have to lower their profit margin if the price jumps too much. The consumers suffer because they have to pay more money for the same product, or cant afford the product.
In a governemt: the civilians suffer because they cant use the mass transit system, or their house burns down because the fire fighter are striking, etc.
Little old me does not give a flying quack if you buy that guys house or not, but I do care that police officers are not going to patrol the streets, or respond to 911 calls.
Is that clear enough for you?
anywho
Let me tell you a little story about union greed.
My Father has been working for the same company for nearly 30 years, and for the last 18 years of so has been in upper management. The business is a large distributer that serves all of memphis and shelby county (roughly 750,000 people)
I think it was around 1995, the dock workers and drivers went on strike. I don't know all the particulars, but the strike was centered around an increase in wages for hourly workers, and an increase in commission for the route men. The hourly workers wanted something like a 22% raise, and the route men wanted the commission rate raised about 18%. When the company refused, they all went on strike, threatening to shut the business down.
Without truck drivers, the business had no way to deliver his merchandise to his customers, and without dock sales workers, customers could not take delivery of merchandise they purchased off the dock.
What the owner did was: He personally (along with 3 or 4 other men) worked the warehouse and dock (he was employing roughly 20 men to do this) My Mother, and the owners Wife worked the counter While the strike was in place, the owner would walk around at the end of the day handing out hundred dollar bills to anyone who had worked for him The owner took out an add in the newspaper, stated that because of the strike at hand, he needed a way to deliver beer to his customers. He said that the dock would be open for sales from 6am til 6pm. He said that he would give an unlimited $1 dollar per case discount to anyone purchasing off the dock, and that they could resell it to his customers for the usual going rate. He advised the people to check with their local gas stations and grocery stores to see how much of what they needed. ETC
The strike lasted nearly 2 weeks before the workers got tired of not getting paid and came back to work.
I can understand wanting a 3% or 5% raise to offset the cost of living increase, and MAYBE a 10% raise if you have really been doing your job well and have expanded your responsibilities. But 20%? That is uncalled for, especially considering most of the dock workers didnt even finish high school. The most pathetic thing about this strike was that the union was taking like 11% of the employee's earnings as union dues.
The ironic part is, that about 10 years ago, the workers finally voted out the union. They saw a very nice different in their take home pay, just from that. The following week, the owner of the company held a company meeting, he said that he appreciated the workers trust in him to take care of them, and gave everyone a 7% raise, and increased commission considerably too. The following year, he opted to go with a better insurance plan (larger network, lower copays and deductibles, etc) and also increased the amount of the premium that the company paid.
My advice to people: If you don't trust the company you are working for to take care of you, don't work for them. Its that simple.
Your story illustrates the fallacy of your examples. You continuously state that Unions can shut down a business. But your examples shows that in most cases they cannot. Union membership in union workplaces rarely exceeds 50% and in any cases is as low as 25% or lower. This means many employees ignore the strikes. And you story shows that in most recent cases, management forces concessions on the union.
This is one poor and powerless terrorism group.
While we're throwing anecdotal stories around, I can give you one of many examples form my life of employer abuse. I lived in East TN. (I realize Covington is in a wealthier section and so maybe you have not experienced conditions as bad as we in the East.) During the Reagan years, East TN had a very depressed economy. My employer forced anyone who was hitting overtime to clock out and clock in on someone else's timecard. It was then your responsibility to go to that person on payday and get your money. Sure we could have complained and/or got to the labor board but in our "Right to Work" state (more like "Right to be Fired" state) we would have been fired and I had spent a year looking for this minimum wage job and could not risk it.
This behavior was not uncommon and probably is not uncommon today. I also worked jobs below minimum wage because it was that or nothing. Wow, I felt powerful as an employee against my poor boss.
I see this employer conduct more akin to terrorism than worker ensuring fair work conditions.
Last Edit: Feb 24, 2011 9:32:55 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
jhammett I am going to try and stop arguing with you as we will never agree. But maybe you should more closely examine your definitions and examples before you post them as they always seem to usually disprove your point. Just a thought.
Alright, I agree to end the arguement, this will be my last post.
What do you think the union's goal in the strike was? Did they just want to take an unpaid vacation, and stand outside their place of work holding up signs?
Owners forcing concessions on the union? That just doesnt make sense to me. Its never the owner of the company's choice for the union to strike, is it? Then how are they forcing anything? If someone is threatening to beat you up if you don't give them money, and you refuse to give them money, then properly defend yourself from their attacks, are you at fault?
And by the way, the owner of the company in my story lost about $23,000 in the 2 weeks that the strike was in place. And for the record, nearly every driver, and about 75% of the dock workers were union workers.
As far as your story goes, I believe that even now you could sue that employer for back wages, and / or have them audited (the audit will only go back 2 years). The same would go for an employer that forced you to fill out a 1099, thus was not responsible for paying you overtime, or providing benefits. The only time an employer can legally require someone to fill out a 1099 instead of a W2 is if they are in a position where the amount (and quality) of work they do directly affects their amount of compensation. And yes that employer was a peice of shit, and had that been me, I would have quit, had him audited, and watched his business fall apart too (but Im cynical, and would rather go down swinging than deal with being mistreated, just my nature). I also have worked for an employee that paid me $4 an hour cash with no benefits and no overtime, despite me working 65 hours every week. But that employer was my parents, and they were letting me live in their house, and paying for me to go to tech school, so I let it slide (lol)
Also, by the way, Covington, and all of tipton county, is far from what I would call economic bliss. There are some perks to living here (lower crime, lower property tax, better schools), but unemployment rate, and poverty status is a bit higher than state average.
And also, I said since I was 16 I have had a job, which is true, but I was 16 in 2001, so I didn't get to experience the reagan era. Here in the last 4 years it has gotten nasty, all the factories around here (the majority of the work force) have closed down, but I have never had a problem getting a job, and have never been fired or layed off (knock on wood).
Wow, glad to see what's going on out here has fostered such discussion (and apologies to jigawig on the gender confusion, I just kinda assumed from the picture without reading on...)
I need to reiterate right now that this is not about the union wage/benefit package at this point. The president of the state public employees' union accepted Walker's financial concessions a week ago already - these cuts will happen either way, regardless of the outcome of this. It's just that Walker kept pressing on revoking the union's right to collectively bargain for anything except wage - and even then, just wage increases less than or up to the consumer price index.
This protested budget repair bill is about more than just the union contracts and rights.
This bill would allow the state to sell off state-owned power/heating/cooling plants which serve state buildings. These facilities would continue to service these state buildings, but be privately owned. This legislation states that this will occur through a no-bid contract process. It's the equivalent of selling your car to someone who you know is going to turn around and lease it back to you. I'm sorry, but this is fiscally irresponsible. The "no-bid contract" clause means the state can accept whatever bid it (Walker) chooses... which to me has the Koch brothers' fingerprints all over it.
Walker wants to strip the state legislature of having any say in how public health care programs are implemented, concentrating those powers under the governor. I'm not sure I like having fewer checks and balances with this guy in office...
He also wants to separate the UW-Madison campus from the rest of the UW System. It basically creates a bunch of duplicate bureaucracy. It would be governed by a board of 21 - eleven chosen by Walker, ten chosen by UW. That's my alma mater he's messing with. I don't think it's necessarily good for the UW System as a whole or the UW-Madison campus.
Did anyone notice what Walker said during the Buffalo Beast call pranking him? That he had considered putting "troublemakers" in the crowd but didn't, on political grounds? Madison's police chief is none too happy about that.
All that being said... I'm off to wave some signs at the recently-opened Koch lobbying office near the capitol in a few minutes. But first a quick plug.
To anyone who's interested in helping out the protesters from afar, here's an opportunity. Ian's Pizza on State Street has been delivering unfreakingbelievable amounts of pizzas to protesters. Donations thus far come from all fifty states and all seven continents - even Antarctica! -and also from Egypt
If anyone's interested in sponsoring an Ian's solidarity pizza to feed Madison protesters, the instructions from their website: If you are here to learn how help feed the protesters in Madison, here's how you can do that:
Call us at 608-257-9248, then press 1. As we have just three phone lines it may take a while to get through, and we apologize in advance for that.
For online ordering we have partnered with both badgerbites.com and campusfood.com to process our online orders. If you would like to order online, please put 115 State Street as the delivery address, and add in the notes that you would like to help feed the protesters.
Okay, twenty minutes until the next protest... time to grab my sign, cheesehead, and vuvuzela and get a move on. Thanks to everyone out there similarly raising hell in their home states.
i know we are done "arguing" but jhammet, i have to say, one of my biggest problems with your argument is when you say: if you don't like it, quit. there are other people waiting to take your job.
as it has been mentioned, texas makes collective bargaining illegal for teachers. you can lose everything (your job, certification, retirement).
now it is true that there are some people with certification that are having trouble getting jobs but.....
let's say that everyone just in my district, just in the elementary schools were fired b/c they went on strike....my district is just one of 15 in san antonio and it has 63 elementary schools.
my school is actually a smaller school and we have about 55 certified teachers on staff. so in a conservative estimate that would be 55 x 63=3465 teachers, only in elementary schools, only in my district, only in san antonio.
are you honestly telling me that you believe that if the teachers in texas went by that mentality (if you don't like it, quit) that every position could be filled with certified, capable teachers that you would really want teaching your kids???
i think we all know the answer. it is not as black and white as you make it. my overall employer is NOT a man who i can know in his outside life and meet his family and reason and talk with him. i work my ass off raising other people's kids trying to make tolerant, self-sufficient adults that are not a burden on society, and i do not make that much money. i also have a masters degree. most of my friends whom i went to college with are making 80k+ a year being accountants, IT workers and lawyers. that is almost twice as much as i make and i work 10-12 hour days most of the week (and if i had moved back home to abilene to teach, i would have made 12k less a year).
i have a right to have my voice heard and i feel sad for texas b/c everyone thinks we are idiots anyway and sometimes i think people are right! (doing things like giving michael vick the keys to dallas doesn't exactly help things )
Last Edit: Feb 24, 2011 23:41:49 GMT -5 by EAP - Back to Top
can you imagine if rethuglicans all walked out, and headed for canada when the healthcare bill was passed...dems would have had a field day with criticisms
and what about all this talk of civility after the arizone shooting (especially coming from pres obama's "heart-felt" speech). now, when it is convienent to support unions (who are totally democrat), the pres is talking about assaults, senators are talking about sheding a little blood...and the whole time no one is mentioning it anywhere. what happened about all the controversial things ms palin said, and everyone had heart attacks, what about the bullseye targets...but no, there is no double standard
i know we are done "arguing" but jhammet, i have to say, one of my biggest problems with your argument is when you say: if you don't like it, quit. there are other people waiting to take your job.
as it has been mentioned, texas makes collective bargaining illegal for teachers. you can lose everything (your job, certification, retirement).
now it is true that there are some people with certification that are having trouble getting jobs but.....
let's say that everyone just in my district, just in the elementary schools were fired b/c they went on strike....my district is just one of 15 in san antonio and it has 63 elementary schools.
my school is actually a smaller school and we have about 55 certified teachers on staff. so in a conservative estimate that would be 55 x 63=3465 teachers, only in elementary schools, only in my district, only in san antonio.
are you honestly telling me that you believe that if the teachers in texas went by that mentality (if you don't like it, quit) that every position could be filled with certified, capable teachers that you would really want teaching your kids???
i think we all know the answer. it is not as black and white as you make it. my overall employer is NOT a man who i can know in his outside life and meet his family and reason and talk with him. i work my ass off raising other people's kids trying to make tolerant, self-sufficient adults that are not a burden on society, and i do not make that much money. i also have a masters degree. most of my friends whom i went to college with are making 80k+ a year being accountants, IT workers and lawyers. that is almost twice as much as i make and i work 10-12 hour days most of the week (and if i had moved back home to abilene to teach, i would have made 12k less a year).
i have a right to have my voice heard and i feel sad for texas b/c everyone thinks we are idiots anyway and sometimes i think people are right! (doing things like giving michael vick the keys to dallas doesn't exactly help things )
I wasn't talking about striking. I was just saying that if you don't trust your employer to provide what is necessary for you, then you should find a different job.
If my employer decided that they would no longer provide insurance and retirement benefits, I would certainly start looking for a new job. Thankfully though, I doubt I will ever be put in that position where I work.
Yes, I think it's lame that the Dems fled the state and went to Illinois. I really hate the double standard of "I hate when your side does something, but if my side does it it's ok because you did it first." That really doesn't get us anywhere. However, I also think it's BS that Walker was trying to trick the Dems into being in session so that he could force the vote through. So I can somewhat understand why they did what they did. One thing that bothers me about this situation however, is when teachers are upset about their wages. We've all known since we were in school that teachers don't make a lot of money. It's common knowledge. I have several teachers in my family as well as friends from college who have gone on to be teachers. They all have known going in that they weren't taking the job to become millionaires. They either did it because of the intrinsic value of making a difference in kids' lives, because of summers off and/or a great pension system. There are certainly other reasons why one might take a job teaching, however in my experience these have been the top 3. Now I know enough not to make sweeping generalities on these issues, but I can certainly say that nobody becomes a K-12 teacher to be rich. So it upsets me to hear complaints about teacher wages overall compared to people who work in the private sector (certainly there are people who are underpaid relative to others in their industry, public or private. I think we all could make the case that we should be getting more money in our paychecks for whatever it is that we do.) I think the reason it bothers me is because it makes no mention of the perks afforded to teachers. It omits the summer vacation and great pension. I have no summer vacation or pension at my job. Not even a 401k. If I want to retire, I've got to do something with my money on my own to secure that. Maybe it's just a "grass is greener" type of thing. They focus on how their job sucks because they don't make a lot of money and I focus on the fact that I don't have summers off and I work until after 5 every day. I donno. I think we're all guilty of playing the "poor me" card every now and then while forgetting about the reasons we accepted the job in the first place.
That having been said, I do side with the protesters in Wisconsin. This is no longer about healthcare benefits being taken away to balance the budget. It's about a pro big-business governor trying to screw unions and other workers. That's not right and I'm glad the people of Wisconsin are taking a stand.
maybe we wouldn't be complaing if people in the general public didn't believe bullsh.it like we make 100K a year. and why aren't teachers allowed to bargain their salary but other workers are?? um, that's not a double standard at all.
and by the way, you do realize that we do NOT get paid for summers??? my pension is also not that great. i will have to work 27 years to only recieve 66% a year for retirement.
(i also usually work past five every day too. and i bet my day starts earlier than your's: 7:15am.)
you know what forget it. unless you've been a teacher you have NO IDEA how hard it is (i had no clue and my mom is a teacher), and it would be as useless as talking with a brick wall about being a floor.
Last Edit: Feb 25, 2011 11:37:23 GMT -5 by EAP - Back to Top
The Senate Reps held up and blocked hundreds of House Bills last session and would have done anything, including fled the country if necessary, to stop the Healthcare bill. Does anyone believe otherwise.
The Dems fleeing WI and IN is no different than a Senate filibuster. Sure I and Dems were frustrated when Reps did it, just as you and Reps have a right to be now but there is nothing hypocritical in Dems suppoting this , unless Reps are willing to concede their hypocrisy in using the filibuster. I say both did what the legislative process allows. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Last Edit: Feb 25, 2011 11:54:32 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
The republicans have used the filibusterer more then democrats and there is no different. The GOP conservative think pattern is no compromise. Prior to this both parties have compromises on bills and letting each party push through bills that is important to them.. This year GOP hasnt even allowed democrat sponsored bills to be considered to be sent to the floor. That is unheard of. There hero Ronald Reagan was known for compromise. He and Democrat House Speaker Tip O'Neil were know to have meetings last in hours to come to a compromise.
maybe we wouldn't be complaing if people in the general public didn't believe bullsh.it like we make 100K a year. and why aren't teachers allowed to bargain their salary but other workers are?? um, that's not a double standard at all.
and by the way, you do realize that we do NOT get paid for summers??? my pension is also not that great. i will have to work 27 years to only recieve 66% a year for retirement.
(i also usually work past five every day too. and i bet my day starts earlier than your's: 7:15am.)
you know what forget it. unless you've been a teacher you have NO IDEA how hard it is (i had no clue and my mom is a teacher), and it would be as useless as talking with a brick wall about being a floor.
I don't think the general public believes that most teachers make $100k. I know the data just came back for my town and the average teacher salary is $55k. I always thought it was common knowledge that teachers don't make a lot of money, they just have good benefits. I never said that you aren't allowed to collectively bargain for better wages, so don't put words in my mouth. I said we could all make the case that we should be getting paid more so we should all have the same bargaining rights. Also, I know some programs allow teachers to spread their pay across the summer. It results in a lower paycheck, but it allows them to have some income in the summer time. I'm guessing this isn't available in your area, but it is available in others. Pension being "not that great" is definitely better than no pension at all, however.
But please don't give me this petty "I bet I work longer than you" crap. That's childish and doesn't get anyone anywhere. I'm not comparing my job to that of a teachers. Because I know teachers do a heck of a lot more than I do. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't like when people complain about their jobs because there's always someone out there that has a much worse job than you. To complain about low pay while I'm sure that there is someone out there that works harder (ie:farmers, factory workers, etc) for much less is just something I find upsetting.
Troo, please don't ever include me with Republicans. Please. I could not be any less of a Republican. I support teachers rights to collective bargaining and I think they deserve the benefits they are given. I think we all can look back on certain teachers that have had a great impact on us as people and be glad that we had them. My only gripe is complaints that I believe to be unreasonable (note: I am not talking about Wisconsin at all here. ). Just kind of the whole "poor me" attitude. And this goes with anybody really. Not just teachers. There are plenty of teachers that never resort to "poor me." So if it comes off as me railing against teachers, I'm sorry. I'm just railing against anybody who wants pity for doing the job they signed up for. Teachers just happened to be the ones that made me speak up.
I understand that the Dems walking out is just like a filibuster. And I realize that they only had to do that because Walker was going to trick them into being in session so he could force the vote through. They did what they had to do. And like you said, I'm sure Congressional Republicans would have left the country if they had to block a vote. I just guess I take issue with leaving the state. It doesn't do much to combat the "Dems are wussies" label that us on the left have been branded with. That's just my take on it. I realize there's really no other option. It's kind a "fight fire with fire" type of approach. There's really no other way. Obama has tried taking the high road and that hasn't really helped. There really is no compromising with Republicans.
Troo, please don't ever include me with Republicans. Please. I could not be any less of a Republican.
Apology offered. I meant the phrase "you and Reps" to refer to your seeming agreement on this issue only. Sorry if I offended you or lumped you in with a crowd with whom you do not wish to be associated.
Around here, teachers with a Bachelors make ~$32,000 on average. Teachers with a Masters Degree make ~$42,000 on average.
At my place of employment, a Case Manager (Bachelors required) starts at ~$30,000 and has a ceiling of ~$38,000. An unlicensed Therapist (Masters Required) starts at ~$45,000 and has a ceiling of approx ~$55,000. A licensed (LCSW or LPC) Therapist starts at ~$55,000 and has a ceiling of ~$65,000
Now, clinicians here will make a bit more money than teachers, sometimes as much as $15,000 more, but they have also have the potential of being attacked by a client.
We work 1950 hours a year by schedule, and if you were to work 6:30am - 5:30pm every day for 180 days, that would bring your total hours to 1980. So suggesting that you are not getting the summer as a paid vacation is kind of misleading.
I think teachers wages are fair.
I also think we should convert to a Year Round school schedule, with no more long fall and winter breaks. Give students the same number of holidays as a US Government employee would get. School should also be longer. Students should be learning for 8 hours each day. etc etc etc...
If that were to happen, I could certainly see a major increase in teachers wages, to something like $45,000 - $65,000.
Troo, please don't ever include me with Republicans. Please. I could not be any less of a Republican.
Apology offered. I meant the phrase "you and Reps" to refer to your seeming agreement on this issue only. Sorry if I offended you or lumped you in with a crowd with whom you do not wish to be associated.
No offense taken. I certainly do not wish to be associated with that group, however I can understand how we could be lumped together on that particular issue.
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Feb 25, 2011 15:30:11 GMT -5
I get the sense that EAP is not saying "poor me."
When you dismissively say that teachers are ignoring the perks they have, and then the perks you list for them are incorrect, you should expect someone to chime in and tell you that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
so glad to know that my fellow inforoosters value education
False.
I completely disagree with what most of jhammett says in general (sorry jhammett, I still think you are a cool person, but our political views are not par). I am not sure that he is implying this at all. At any rate, no need to lump all of us as unappreciative of teachers.
Of course being a teacher is valuable. As is case management, and nursing, and truck driving and farming and everything else. We live in communities that rely upon one another.
And of course we should be fairly compensated for our value to society. And, unfortunately, many times we are not. And there-in lies the benefit of civil unrest, and unions, and freedom of speech, and freedom of thought.
Smile EAP, we love you, we appreciate you.
Oh,and keep truckin' kdogg, the battle is not yet lost
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
Now, clinicians here will make a bit more money than teachers, sometimes as much as $15,000 more, but they have also have the potential of being attacked by a client.
C'mon, man! You're trying to tell me violence isn't a factor in schools? There is plenty of that going on. Obviously, there was Columbine. Up here in Wisconsin, we had a similar incident in which a principal was shot and killed preventing a similar attack. Hell, Mr. Knutsen got kicked in the balls at my own school trying to stop a kid from skipping out.
ANYWAY My Thursday Just after my last post (4pm-ish Central) Hundreds demonstrated outside the Koch lobbying firm which recently opened in Madison. Rumor has it they closed up shop overnight, not even leaving the window with their logo. I got interviewed by Democracy Now ;D People are LOVING my cheesehead with the state motto FORWARD emblazoned across the sides. I've had it on every day since last Wednesday.
Protest paraded up to the capitol from the Koch office. Time to stop for an aside: this protest is fucking amazing. It's what, day eleven? Twelve? (There's debate as to whether Valentine's Day or Eve was the official start) The state capitol protest has: first aid stations food stands a daycare area rules and information posted on the walls posters covering just about everything, actually volunteer cleanup duties random parades and drum circles all kinds of new friends good vibes
My state capitol this past week or two strongly resembles what would happen if Bonnaroo took over. Y'all should try it
So anyway, went to the capitol for more protesting. Tried heading out to grab quick eats/drinks with my boy Phil before going to the Orpheum Theater (this cool, old-style renovated theater two blocks from capitol) for a 7pm event. I wound up being recruited to be in a YouTube music video somehow. (I told you people love the Forward cheesehead!) I saw some costumed people with boomboxes and isntruments heading my way, approached Phil & I and asked me if I wanted to be in their YouTube video. I hesitated, but Phil said he was cool heading off alone. I didn't know the song and didn't really receive any instructions, and it was over in two takes. I'm curious to see exactly WTF happened there myself. I got out of there and hurried to the Orpheum. Amy Goodman from Democracy Now spoke. John Nichols (writer of The Nation and Madison's The Capital Times) was there too. I think I was the only guy in the crowd with a vuvuzela... for now [Madison DJ Nick Nice has ordered a couple hundred surplus vuvuzelas, which were expected yesterday so probably arriving today, to distribute to protesters. Reinforcements are coming!]
Amy Goodman autographed my cheesehead after the event. Would love to finish (early Friday is some BS!) but I must be moving on...
When midnight hit, I was hurriedly packing my things at my boy Phil's place and awaiting word on whether capitol entry was still allowed. I got word on Twitter (this whole hullabaloo actually has me using my Twitter account) that the capitol was open as long as the State Assembly was in session. They were nearing the end of their marathon proceedings (introduced 100+ amendments to the process of the bill to slow it down while their State Senate counterparts are holed up in Illinois*)
I got into the capitol, set up camp for the night, and went up to the Assembly gallery to watch the ongoing proceedings. My Forward cheesehead wasn't cool with them, so they made me take it back and return. I got to the gallery and sat down a few minutes after one in the morning. There was a line of Democratic assembly representatives lined up to speak. This was a marathon filibuster session in which Democrats had been going for 60+ hours and planning to go all night. So Democrats were up and out of their seats waiting to speak when one of their associates was speaking. As soon as that assemblyman concluded, the chair quick - similar to an auctioneer's cadence, eerily - rattled off a call to vote. While Democrats were still out of their seats, waiting for what they thought had been their allotted turns. There was a near-simultaneous sound of vote buttons being slapped. It's as if the Assembly Republicans knew this was coming. It definitely had the feel of dirty tricks and an ambush.
Full video of that part of the proceedings is here, via WisconsinEye (our state version of CSPAN) with the vote coming at 1:05am after Rep. Hebl's speaking turn.
That video only accounts for the conclusion of that session. Video from the floor is below:
Democrats got enraged and starting pointing/chanting "Shame!" repeatedly. I think us protesters are starting to be a good influence on them. Somewhere in one of these, you can see an assembly Dem throw a glass of water. I would also like to point out the speed with which the Assembly Republicans departed: Has anyone ever seen a majority run away so fast?
I saw a guy who appeared to be getting arrested on my way down from the gallery. At least, he appeared to be detained near a state trooper* who was escorting a GOP assemblyman out. Funny thing about these protests... THE COPS ARE ON OUR SIDE! So the officer just let this guy, presumably arrested, sit there and shout all he wanted at the smirking, fleeing Republican.
*About the state troopers... Gov. Walker and the Fitzgerald brothers (one is Senate majority leader here, the other Assembly Speaker) recently made a cronyist appointment to head the State Patrol that hasn't taken too well: the father Fitzgerald. Also worth mentioning: Gov. Walker's admitted "I thought about" inserting troublemakers into the otherwise-peaceful protesters when he was getting punk'd by a reporter from Buffalo pretending to be David Koch.
I must be going again, but this Walker prank phone call really should be seen if anyone hasn't yet.
^ This is what Scott Walker sounds like when he thinks he's talking to a major nationwide Republican donor; this is why we want him gone NOW.
Thinking of migrating this into something more of a journal-like thread so I can include some pictures and not dominate this one. Maybe tonight, but I only got two hours of sleep on the capitol floor last night.
"most of my friends whom i went to college with are making 80k+ a year being accountants, IT workers and lawyers. that is almost twice as much as i make and i work 10-12 hour days most of the week (and if i had moved back home to abilene to teach, i would have made 12k less a year)."
sounds like "poor me." Maybe it wasn't intended to come across that way, but I that's the way I saw it.
When you dismissively say that teachers are ignoring the perks they have, and then the perks you list for them are incorrect, you should expect someone to chime in and tell you that you don't know what the quack you're talking about.
Was I wrong about a 3 month summer vacation? Was I wrong about Xmas, February and April vacations? Was I wrong about a pension system? Just because some particular schools don't have the option to extend pay throughout the summer doesn't mean that I am totally off-base. This whole "if you don't do my job for a living, you have no fuc king clue how hard it is" is applicable for everyone's job. And it's a silly thing to hide behind. Yes being a GOOD teacher is more difficult than reusing the same lesson plan for the last 20 years. It takes hard work, just like other people's jobs.
I don't want to have this argument anymore because it is painting me out to be some type of anti-educational conservative, when that is certainly not the case. I'm sure others will chime in so that they can have the last word and that is fine. I just wanted to get across my point that someone who gets 1/4 of the year off, shouldn't complain about pay in comparison to someone who doesn't.
so glad to know that my fellow inforoosters value education
False.
I completely disagree with what most of jhammett says in general (sorry jhammett, I still think you are a cool person, but our political views are not par). I am not sure that he is implying this at all. At any rate, no need to lump all of us as unappreciative of teachers.
Of course being a teacher is valuable. As is case management, and nursing, and truck driving and farming and everything else. We live in communities that rely upon one another.
And of course we should be fairly compensated for our value to society. And, unfortunately, many times we are not. And there-in lies the benefit of civil unrest, and unions, and freedom of speech, and freedom of thought.
Smile EAP, we love you, we appreciate you.
Oh,and keep truckin' kdogg, the battle is not yet lost
I think / hope that she was refering to MrKC, rather than me. I personally think that teachers have one of the most difficult jobs out there... They are responsible to educate people, and sometimes these people do not want to, or are not able to learn, despite the teachers best efforts. Teachers can try their very best, but if the students do poorly on a test, the teacher is blamed (atleast some times).
Now, clinicians here will make a bit more money than teachers, sometimes as much as $15,000 more, but they have also have the potential of being attacked by a client.
C'mon, man! You're trying to tell me violence isn't a factor in schools? There is plenty of that going on. Obviously, there was Columbine. Up here in Wisconsin, we had a similar incident in which a principal was shot and killed preventing a similar attack. Hell, Mr. Knutsen got kicked in the balls at my own school trying to stop a kid from skipping out.
There certainly is an element of danger in a teacher's job, especially teachers who work with children with special needs. I agree with that.
But mental health clinicians are constantly dealing with people who are, at times, unstable. Now, the organization I work for employees a great team of psychiatrists, therapists, nurse practitioners, pharmacists, registered nurses, case managers, and crisis responders, who are all excellent at what they do, so we rarely have problems with clients getting violent or aggressive. I think "Dr. Strong" as only been paged twice since I have been employed. However, just before I started we had a client attack and hospitalize one of our Nurse Practitioners because she wouldn't prescribe him xanax. She spent a week in the hospital, and a few weeks after getting out, she resigned. She told the administrators that she just couldn't do this kind of work any more.