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who exactly is it that makes the choice to call your sponsor instead of going out and scoring something, who makes the choice to go to a meeting instead of a bar? I just can't buy into the powerlessness thing or the higher power thing, those were my two biggest problems when I was in rehab but oh well, I wish at the time I had been informed about that rational recovery thing.
Post by cheeky resurrection on Mar 27, 2009 15:23:56 GMT -5
In a lot of instances, AA works so well because people can easily interchange their addiction with religion. The place where their dru.g of CHOICE once stood, the "higher power" is now. I have substance abuse, alcoholism, and Rx medication abuse, overwhelmingly, on both sides of my family.... My parents tried to hide this from me so as to keep a more pure image of my background. When I was younger I experimented, as most do, and found what I liked and what i REALLY liked (aka what I couldn't handle). And that was it, and it still is it to this day. I had withdrawals without an actual hard addiction just because the addict gene in my family is so strong. So of course I believe in the science behind the disease but I also believe that freewill completely overpowers it. Some people aren't strong enough, or responsible enough, or educated enough to handle that free will (not to say abusers are ignorant, just insufficiently educated about what they're getting into). You can't tell me there is no choice, there is ALWAYS a choice. Of course it's going to be hard, you have a quacking addiction, but in the end you make the choice to do it again and again and again.
Smite away folks but I'm stating my educated opinion. As candyflipped said, this just comes down to a fundamental difference in belief. I respect your opinion and realize that that is what you believe to be true so please respect mine, for it is the same thing. Tolerance.
Brandon, you have been given the resources to find what you're looking for and I send my infinite respect to what you're doing. I hope I have in no way insulted you and that you continue your way on the clean and sober path.
And I hope you enjoy your 'Roo As I know everyone else here will. (But only if they make the choice to do so)
In a lot of instances, AA works so well because people can easily interchange their addiction with religion. The place where their dru.g of CHOICE once stood, the "higher power" is now. I have substance abuse, alcoholism, and Rx medication abuse, overwhelmingly, on both sides of my family.... My parents tried to hide this from me so as to keep a more pure image of my background. When I was younger I experimented, as most do, and found what I liked and what i REALLY liked (aka what I couldn't handle). And that was it, and it still is it to this day. I had withdrawals without an actual hard addiction just because the addict gene in my family is so strong. So of course I believe in the science behind the disease but I also believe that freewill completely overpowers it. Some people aren't strong enough, or responsible enough, or educated enough to handle that free will (not to say abusers are ignorant, just insufficiently educated about what they're getting into). You can't tell me there is no choice, there is ALWAYS a choice. Of course it's going to be hard, you have a quacking addiction, but in the end you make the choice to do it again and again and again.
Smite away folks but I'm stating my educated opinion. As candyflipped said, this just comes down to a fundamental difference in belief. I respect your opinion and realize that that is what you believe to be true so please respect mine, for it is the same thing. Tolerance.
Brandon, you have been given the resources to find what you're looking for and I send my infinite respect to what you're doing. I hope I have in no way insulted you and that you continue your way on the clean and sober path.
And I hope you enjoy your 'Roo As I know everyone else here will. (But only if they make the choice to do so)
What makes your opinion educated? ITs not belief it has been proven.. I have seen it and treated it. I have an MS in mental health counseling and worked with addicts for many years and it isn't about trading addictions..if that is so then RR wouldn't work and it does...
Post by brandon32807 on Mar 27, 2009 18:39:00 GMT -5
well during my active addiction there was no choice. I understand what you are saying with the choice thing, there is a choice. But when i was using i didn't have the ability to stop using on my own. The biggest problem I had was I believed I could stop using on my own, but I could never stay stopped. Now when I went to rehab for the last time I came in with the attitude of I can't do this on my own and I'm going to listen to what these people are saying. AA and NA saved my life, it made me look at my behaviors and such and why I used drugs and alcohol. You have to change your behaviors and such to be able to stay clean and sober (this is for me, maybe different for others). Until I was ready to change and accept the fact that I could not do this without help I would never be able to stay stopped. But today with AA and NA I have the choice to not use drugs and alcohol, and this is only with the help of these two programs.
I think the whole thing of having no choice was during active addiction. To be completely honest I really did not have the full intentions of stopping when I went to rehab the last time. But when I started to look at my behaviors and how they affected everything around me I started to see that there is a better way to live my life, and shooting dope was not it.
Now AA and NA are not for everyone, but for me It was the only thing that worked. But the key is that I had to want it. I was told by a man with over 30 years of sobriety when i got into AA that I only had to change one thing. That one thing was everything.
If I had no recovery, which is a program in AA and NA, then I would still have no choice in stopping. I know for a fact that eventually I would go back to using. This is me and may be different for others.
can someone explain to me, if none of this is choice, how do you stop?
If you cant choose, and you see someone using, you HAVE to go back to using? you cant CHOOSE not to?
If there was truly no choice in the matter, no one would ever break their addictions.
you change your behavior. yes there are choices in this but it is to complicated to say it is only a choice. The addicts brain works different as does the person who is depressed or bi-polar works different.
The neurons in the brain react different to the stimuli. For instance, a heroin addict shows similar brain pattern of getting high before he actually takes the drugs or just thinks about. A simple way would to be say the stop button is broken.
The casual use then becomes compulsive and fear of withdrawals and other things that go along with use.
Finally something happens in the addicts life, hopefully not to drastic that makes him want to change. He needs something that changes his behavior patterns-cognitive restructuring possibly. Some can do this just by going to AA/NA which has worked miracles giving support to the addict while changing habits/behavior. Some need more intense such as treatment.
Many people get confused about the level of use. Not everyone who has had problems with dru.gs is an addict they may have abused the dru.g and it would be easier for them to stay off and may not succeed in AA/NA.
Candy, I think your use of the word choice doesn't take in to account compulsion or the physical dependency of addiction. I can choose to drink or not drink because I am not an alcoholic. A drunk does not have that choice.
Post by candyflippedaround on Mar 27, 2009 19:10:09 GMT -5
We just are not going to agree. The only thing a physical addiction to alcohol can do is make your body ache so bad that you want to die, or go have a drink. Theres still nothing forcing the booze down your throat, you made the decision to go buy it and drink it. Despite the fact that your brain is screaming at you "GET ME THIS DRUG AT ALL COSTS" there is a decision that you make to listen to it and drink/smoke/whatever.
I just think there is a huge difference between actually not having a choice, and not being able to see that you have a choice in the heat of an addiction.
We just are not going to agree. The only thing a physical addiction to alcohol can do is make your body ache so bad that you want to die, or go have a drink. Theres still nothing forcing the booze down your throat, you made the decision to go buy it and drink it. Despite the fact that your brain is screaming at you "GET ME THIS NO NO WORD!!!! AT ALL COSTS" there is a decision that you make to listen to it and drink/smoke/whatever.
I just think there is a huge difference between actually not having a choice, and not being able to see that you have a choice in the heat of an addiction.
and that is a very simplistic uneducated way of looking at it...
Post by brandon32807 on Mar 27, 2009 19:30:40 GMT -5
The mental addiction is way more powerful than any physical addiction. It is just very easy to say well you have a choice why don't you just choose not to use dru.gs or alcohol? It's not that easy to do and for someone who is not an addict or alcoholic, it is very hard to understand why someone would choose something like that. Addiction and alcoholism isn't something you can just turn on or off with a switch. The mind is very powerful thing, and for someone who has addictive tendencies very hard to control.
I just think there is a huge difference between actually not having a choice, and not being able to see that you have a choice in the heat of an addiction.
If choice is not evident to you while you are addicted, you have no choice...choice does not come in to play because choice does not exist.
Post by candyflippedaround on Mar 27, 2009 19:38:21 GMT -5
Like i said, we arent going to agree. I have to back out of this thread do to being to simplistic and uneducated. Losing sight of something like a choice doesnt mean it disappears.
Like i said, we arent going to agree. I have to back out of this thread do to being to simplistic and uneducated. Losing sight of something like a choice doesnt mean it disappears.
I completely respect your opinion. I can only speak for myself and I'm just saying that I wish it was just that simple to choose not to use dru.gs and alcohol during my addiction.
You stated that it is possible for someone to lose sight of choice in the throes of addiction. So how do you avail yourself of something you don't know is there?
Choice doesn't factor into it for a true addict. It's a matter of life and death. A matter of survival. There is nothing else. Breaking that thought process and the physical addiction and bringing it back to the point where you have a choice is what recovery is all about. Or so it seems to me, a layman.
Post by Steel_City_X on Mar 27, 2009 20:01:25 GMT -5
Brandon, I hope you find the meeting you seek. Good luck and congratulations.
Addictions hit people differently. As much as we are all human beings, there are differences between us. I know people that react differently to booze. I think this is no different than my allergy to bee stings. Them damn things only hurt most people, for me, my body has decided to react in such a manner that death is very possible for me if I get stung.
Why can't booze, smokes, and powders have similarly different effects on people. Just because the bee might kill me, you (whomever you are) might not have any reaction.
Again congratulations. If you need to talk, and I am around, I can discuss any issue with you. I've been to all sorts of different 12 step meetings. I've told my story, heard many stories, and have watched people suffer from an addiction, or because of someone's addiction.
I learned a lot about addiction in college and after. I have a family in that is made up of people with very different genetic backgrounds - we are not all biologically related. Two of the five children (okay, maybe more) have some sort of substance issues. I gave up on the nature vs nurture thing. In my mind, genetics always win in the end.
It is a sad thing that each and every day (2 years now) I take a little pill that has improved my life - and my impact on my wife and child. I call it my happy pill, it fills some sort of chemical shortage in my brain. Does this make me weak, perhaps, but it has had a positive effect on my life. Certain chemicals have positive effects on my bio-chemical system, others have a negative effect.
In a lot of instances, AA works so well because people can easily interchange their addiction with religion. The place where their dru.g of CHOICE once stood, the "higher power" is now. I have substance abuse, alcoholism, and Rx medication abuse, overwhelmingly, on both sides of my family.... My parents tried to hide this from me so as to keep a more pure image of my background. When I was younger I experimented, as most do, and found what I liked and what i REALLY liked (aka what I couldn't handle). And that was it, and it still is it to this day. I had withdrawals without an actual hard addiction just because the addict gene in my family is so strong. So of course I believe in the science behind the disease but I also believe that freewill completely overpowers it. Some people aren't strong enough, or responsible enough, or educated enough to handle that free will (not to say abusers are ignorant, just insufficiently educated about what they're getting into). You can't tell me there is no choice, there is ALWAYS a choice. Of course it's going to be hard, you have a quacking addiction, but in the end you make the choice to do it again and again and again.
Smite away folks but I'm stating my educated opinion. As candyflipped said, this just comes down to a fundamental difference in belief. I respect your opinion and realize that that is what you believe to be true so please respect mine, for it is the same thing. Tolerance.
Brandon, you have been given the resources to find what you're looking for and I send my infinite respect to what you're doing. I hope I have in no way insulted you and that you continue your way on the clean and sober path.
And I hope you enjoy your 'Roo As I know everyone else here will. (But only if they make the choice to do so)
What makes your opinion educated? ITs not belief it has been proven.. I have seen it and treated it. I have an MS in mental health counseling and worked with addicts for many years and it isn't about trading addictions..if that is so then RR wouldn't work and it does...
Apparently anyone opposing your thoughts that doesn't have a Master's degree is simple and uneducated... My educated opinion comes from personal experience, myself and other's situations that are very close to my heart. That may not be enough education to pair up to your superior wealth of knowledge but as it has been said, it just comes down to a fundamental difference of belief. I have my opinion and thoughts, and you have yours.
Tolerance.
Many, many people in my life have had various addictions to many different substances. The only people who have stayed clean are the ones that have made the choice to do so. That's all there is to it. Some of them went to rehab and were set up with sponsors and AA/NA groups and that worked but most of them made the conscious decision to stop, struggled through the withdrawals and haven't touch anything since. This method, to me, seems to be the best, because it shows that the person has the will to be in any situation and can depend solely on themselves to make the responsible decision. No monthly/weekly/daily meetings, no dependence upon another dru.g to get them off the original problem, no sponsor, no one analyzing them and telling them the root of their demons and diseases and disorders. Just them, knowing that being clean gives them a better life, making it possible for them to better the lives of those around them and they see that that is important enough not to give into their petty desire for a quack up. I have seen AA/NA/rehab, whatever, work many times. And I know that people who have been in NA/AA and relapsed, relapsed because they made the CHOICE to do so.
Their choice. Maybe it isn't all that simple if you want to make it complicated but barebones, it is a choice.
In my mind, my simple and uneducated mind, that is all there is to it.
I love how there are all these people that have never struggled with addiction telling people that have that they are wrong and uneducated. I dont really care what you learned in a class room or what you have experienced with some other people(people that you dont truly know). If you havent dealt with it first hand, and I mean first hand then you cannot understand it truly and are only seeing things from an outside perspective.
Post by viciouscircle on Mar 28, 2009 10:00:56 GMT -5
And I love how people think that their limited personal experience( and everyone's personal experience is limited, you are one person out of 6 billion) the interpretation of which is necessarily colored by their own emotional makeup, prefer to just discard science, education, and the personal experiences of those who have bothered to educate themselves. Who the hell are you to decide that just because some people have made the effort to educate themselves that means they don't also have plenty of personal experience to go along with it? And how the hell do you have the nerve to decide how well Clato or anyone else who works in the field knows the people they help? Or whether any of us who disagree with both your conclusions and your logic (and I use that term loosely) have gone throught it ourselves or with family? Most of us have or we wouldn't care enought to be discussing this. But if you think that simply knowing someone who has gone through something or even going through it yourself is the be-all and end-all to knowledge on this or any other topic, then there really is no point in discussing anything. You've made up your "minds" and you certainly aren't going to let facts get in the way.
For one, you've ignored the fact that an addict posted in this very thread that he had no choice while addicted, as evidenced by your "if you haven't dealt with it first hand..." statement. The OP has dealt with it first hand, is dealing with it first hand, yet you're content to refute his personal experience. Clato has also provided a bit of information about the science of physical addiction, but it's been completely disregarded in favor of the "it's a choice" platitude.
Post by brandon32807 on Mar 28, 2009 10:50:40 GMT -5
And people who have chosen to do it on their own, have they never relapsed before??? Of course people who choose the rooms of AA/NA have relapsed, relapse is something that happens. All i'm saying is that my opinion is the rooms of AA/NA are the best solution to the problem of addiction and alcoholism. There are millions of members of these programs worldwide, so they must be doing something right.
Exactly which facts and what science have I ignored or disregarded?
To start with:
Berger, S.P. (2008). Brain science and addiction. The Lancet, 372(9646), 1280-1
Geller, J.(2008)Impulse Control Disorders: A Clinician's Guide to Understanding and Treating Behavioral Addiction: AJP Washington Inaba, D. Cohen, D (2007) Uppers, Downers All Arounders: Physical and Mental Effects of Psychoactive Drugs CNS Publications Lubman, D, Yucel, M, Pantelis, C (2004). Addiction, a condition of compulsive behaviour? Neuroimaging and neuropsychological evidence of inhibitory dysregulation. Addiction, 99(2), 1491+. Messina, N. Marinelli-Casey, P. Hillhouse, M. Rawson R. Hunter, J Ang, A(2008). Childhood Adverse Events and Methamphetamine Use Among Men and Women[dagger]. Journal of Psychoactive Drugs: RESEARCH TO POLICY: CALIFORNIA SUBSTANCE ABUSE RESEARCH...,399-409.
Platt, D. Rowlett, J.K. Spealman, R.D. (2008). Attenuation of cocaine self-administration in squirrel monkeys following repeated administration of the mGluR5 antagonist MPEP: comparison with dizocilpine. Psychopharmacology, 200(2), 167-76.
Widon, C.S. (1999) Childhood victimization and drug abuse: A comparison of prospective and retrospective findings. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. (67)6; 867-80
Volkow, N.D. Fowler, J.S. Wang, G. Swanson, J.M. Telang, F. (2007). Dopamine in Drug Abuse and Addiction. Archives of Neurology, 64(11),
AND cheeky preach tolerance all you and sorry that you are becoming defensive. I was stating my experience in this field. Its more then just knowledge from a classroom, which usually is loaded irrational argument by someone who cannot make a rational argument.
If you have seen and spoke with the people I have you would know exactly what I am talking about.
As far as the bare bones argument you can make any argument about the bare bones when you disregard annoying things such as science.
I think that we are going to have to agree that we are not going to all agree. This is WAY too complicated a subject for us to figure out on a message board.
I have been extremely fortunate. I have not had to deal with addiction in my life. Not for myself, any family member, friend, or loved one. So I do not feel that I can bring anything of use to the table.
But on a lighter note, and to help keep the peace, I AM addicted to these:
It took every ounce of willpower I had not to buy myself any candy yesterday while picking out items for the grandbabies' Easter baskets. The Reese's eggs...oh my.
