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That flashback at the beginning was a great way to open I thought.
I think Walt did two very 'noble' things this episode:
1) Offered all his money to save Hank. 2) The phone call to absolve Skyler of any possible legal repercussions.
I think Walt turning Jesse over was the "unforgivable" act that we kept hearing mentioned (that I mentioned we would see tonight in an earlier post).
I think Walt's main purpose in coming back is to save Jesse, though I'm sure Lydia, his family, and possibly the Czechs factor in to the ending somehow.
"I'm sorry for your loss" was probably the best line Todd has ever delivered ("Let's cook" was good too).
I disagree that his purpose will be to save Jessie. I actually think he will end up saving Jessie, but I think his purpose for coming back to save his family and/or recover his money from Todd's uncle.
He gave the nod to end Jessie on the spot in the desert. For all Walt knows, psycho Todd has done what psycho Todd does best, and Jessie is already dead.
I did laugh at the "sorry for your loss" line. I seriously can't get enough Todd.
Yeah if you read my reply to holls I actually changed my mind to that exact same thing.
This was such a tough episode as far as my perception of Walt. It purposefully jux-ta-positioned Walt at his best and worse over and over again. That's exactly what the cold open was. Reminding the audience what Walt's original intention. Seeing the pain on his face when talking about Holly brings it all back.
The phone call was just devastating.
At this point I don't think we the viewers have to decide one way or another. I have zero pity for Walt but I still believe he has done everything for his family except in the moments when pride and/ or anger get involved. He was willing to lose it all for Hank.
As far as his actions towards Jesse, consider it from his point of view. Jesse is the cause of it all crashing done. All the work for nothing.
I don't think it's as simple as that, man. Cranston absolutely slayed the scene where he was on the phone with Skyler and, while he's verbally abusing her, it's obviously destroying him and he can't even contain his tears. That was one of his best performances of the series and it's not totally unheard of that you'd feel for him after seeing that.
Yeah it is as simple as that. That was a great scene, and Walt letting Skyler off the hook was the absolute least he can do to make up for how much his ego and greed has absolutely destroyed his whole families lives.
How about we don't tell anyone "nope, you're wrong" on a show that keeps every single one of us guessing?
Walt has done some reprehensible things throughout the course of the show, but so has Jesse...and Skylar...and Hank...and Marie...and pretty much everyone. I noticed the parallel to the ASOIAF theme that no one is purely good or purely evil a long time ago. None of the characters on this show are innocent (except Walt's kids, obviously), but everyone has their sins. Are Walt's more severe? Sure. But Jesse killed an innocent person (you can say Walt manipulated him into it if you want, but Jesse pulled the trigger). Skylar covered up Walt's illegal activities, but then kicked it up a notch when she agreed to start washing his money in a car wash bought with druq money, ultimately making a living off of Walt's activities. Hank went around the law more than once. Marie is a clepto (she even tried to steal Skylar's baby!! LOLz) and was pushing Hank to finish the secret investigation, ultimately pushing Walt & Hank to a breaking point that neither could/would go back from.
You can fault Walt for doing horrible things, he's done them (ricin cig, watching Jane die), but all of the main characters have done illegal/immoral things. Hell, everyone's favorite lawyer, Saul Goodman, made his entire business off of circumventing the law, but he's celebrated by fans. It's convenient to hate Walt, which is why you're so absolute in it. You're vilifying a single person because it's easier, but all of the main characters had their hand in pushing the story to the point it reached last night. It's not all on Walt and the acts with Holly & the phonecall prove that he's not an evil person, he did what he did in the past to preserve his family life.
As for some of the other commentary happening in this thread: - I think Walt took Holly originally because he was trying to keep some semblance of family together (I think Dave said this), but once she started calling for her Mom it broke his black heart and he realized that Holly didn't belong with him. - That phonecall scene was just magnificent by Cranston. This might have been his best-acted episode in the entire show which, you know, says something. Holy sh*t was he in the zone for this one. - Hank - I wish I could punch Marie in the face. I know she isn't technically wrong in what she's saying, but how she says it is just the worst. - Depression Beard Walt is on a mission to free Jesse, which will lead to him sacrificing himself to kill the Nazi's and leave Jesse alive and with all of Walt's money.
I guess they are including death as "pay[ing] for his crimes?"
Even so, that's an unfair comment by Salon. It's not black-and-white. Much in the same way Walt manipulates Jesse, the show writers manipulate the viewers. Making it that black and white is to minimizing, given how the writers have gone from "white to black," so to speak, with many characters at various times.
Walt's circumstances are not realistic, so you(Salon) can't say something that clear-cut.
I hadn't noticed that, but it's par for the show, isn't it?
-I did notice the similarity between Walt's silent scream and Michael Corleone's from The Godfather Part III, when his daughter gets killed during the assassination attempt on him:
In the director's commentary on that scene, Coppola said something like they had left out the scream by mistake, but watching it, realized that the silence was even more tragic and intense than the actual vocalization of the grief.
-Also, I agree that what's happening to Jesse is something he had coming...he may not yet be irredeemable, but he's definitely got penance to do. Jesus, how many black eyes can a guy have in one series?
-I still want to meet this mysterious identity-change escape facilitator who drives the mini-van.
-Wow, did the Felina women's underwear company just get the biggest unearned publicity bump in the history of the universe, or what?
My guess as to who is driving the mini-van is Lydia. She is looking for somebody who can cook and Walt needs somebody to hide him. She had no idea as to what was going down in the desert.
Yeah it is as simple as that. That was a great scene, and Walt letting Skyler off the hook was the absolute least he can do to make up for how much his ego and greed has absolutely destroyed his whole families lives.
How about we don't tell anyone "nope, you're wrong" on a show that keeps every single one of us guessing?
Walt has done some reprehensible things throughout the course of the show, but so has Jesse...and Skylar...and Hank...and Marie...and pretty much everyone. I noticed the parallel to the ASOIAF theme that no one is purely good or purely evil a long time ago. None of the characters on this show are innocent (except Walt's kids, obviously), but everyone has their sins. Are Walt's more severe? Sure. But Jesse killed an innocent person (you can say Walt manipulated him into it if you want, but Jesse pulled the trigger). Skylar covered up Walt's illegal activities, but then kicked it up a notch when she agreed to start washing his money in a car wash bought with druq money, ultimately making a living off of Walt's activities. Hank went around the law more than once. Marie is a clepto (she even tried to steal Skylar's baby!! LOLz) and was pushing Hank to finish the secret investigation, ultimately pushing Walt & Hank to a breaking point that neither could/would go back from.
You can fault Walt for doing horrible things, he's done them (ricin cig, watching Jane die), but all of the main characters have done illegal/immoral things. Hell, everyone's favorite lawyer, Saul Goodman, made his entire business off of circumventing the law, but he's celebrated by fans. It's convenient to hate Walt, which is why you're so absolute in it. You're vilifying a single person because it's easier, but all of the main characters had their hand in pushing the story to the point it reached last night. It's not all on Walt and the acts with Holly & the phonecall prove that he's not an evil person, he did what he did in the past to preserve his family life.
As for some of the other commentary happening in this thread: - I think Walt took Holly originally because he was trying to keep some semblance of family together (I think Dave said this), but once she started calling for her Mom it broke his black heart and he realized that Holly didn't belong with him. - That phonecall scene was just magnificent by Cranston. This might have been his best-acted episode in the entire show which, you know, says something. Holy sh*t was he in the zone for this one. - Hank - I wish I could punch Marie in the face. I know she isn't technically wrong in what she's saying, but how she says it is just the worst. - Depression Beard Walt is on a mission to free Jesse, which will lead to him sacrificing himself to kill the Nazi's and leave Jesse alive and with all of Walt's money.
I guess they are including death as "pay[ing] for his crimes?"
Even so, that's an unfair comment by Salon. It's not black-and-white. Much in the same way Walt manipulates Jesse, the show writers manipulate the viewers. Making it that black and white is to minimizing, given how the writers have gone from "white to black," so to speak, with many characters at various times.
Walt's circumstances are not realistic, so you(Salon) can't say something that clear-cut.
Dude, it is that simple for me. It's not a personal attack, so don't become defensive. I Don'tions see how anyone can see Walt as anything but pure evil. he likes to pretend he's a good guy at times, but in the end he's a selfish prick who only cares about himself, if he cared about anyone else, his decisions would have been different.
Also why does everyone seem to feel that Walt wants to "save" Jesse. He pretty much hates Jesse, blames him for Hank's death, and gave him up to Jack. His ego is going to make him go after Jack once he finds out they never killed Jesse and his Product is being made by these guys. But he's not going to go do it because he cares about Jesse.
I don't think the mission is to save Jesse because in Walt's mind Jesse is probably already dead. He left him with the Nazis who said they'd kill him. I think Walt wants revenge on the nazis to get his money back and saving Jesse will be a surprising side effect of that. Like...he never htought he'd see him again but boy was he wrong. And you know that Jesse can't forgive Walt now....after the Jane admission and the order to kill him.
...Jesse learned during the first episode how to kill people with red phosphorus. I doubt Walt would've shown Todd that. So Jesse turns Todd's lab against him?
Those of you who think Walt has become a 100% irredeemable monster should probably wait to see what happens in the last two episodes. One of Breaking Bad's most celebrated aspects is how the writing staff constantly backs Walt and Jesse into a corner, then finds a surprising, character-grounded way for them to escape. Think of this like you would Walt and Jesse cornered in the RV in the junkyard, or Walt tied to the radiator while Jesse and Mike try to sell off the rest of the precursor. The writing staff always comes up with a way out, and I bet they find a way to redeem Walt that feels true to the rest of the story.
My guess as to who is driving the mini-van is Lydia. She is looking for somebody who can cook and Walt needs somebody to hide him. She had no idea as to what was going down in the desert.
Walt is totally evil. that's how Gilligan sees him, that's how everyone should see him. On Talking Bad last night, Dean Norris was talking about this and how Gilligan is so tired of people liking Walt. you're not supposed to. I guess what makes the show so great is that so many people do not see it that way and continues to see good in him. I did up to a point, but definitely not anymore.
I don't know about Jesse. The trailer for next week leads you to believe that the pressure for Walt comes off his family's safety rather than Jesse's. I am with ITM in thinking that he goes back for his family's safety/the money/revenge and Jesse is just a byproduct of his return. As mentioned above, I don't know how welcome Jesse is going to be at seeing Walt again though. In the desert, I think Walt's reasoning for having Jesse killed turned from protection of his interests to straight revenge for turning on him and getting Hank killed. The original reason is calculating Walt. The end reason was, to borrow the phrase, the Heisenberg Rage Monster. Much like when he comes to his senses post-phone call and returns Holly, I can see Walt softening up on Jesse after he gets some distance from Hank's death since Walt will know he is more at fault since he is the one that called the crazy Nazi's after all.
Also, this
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P.S. sorry about the 2nd picture. it's the only one I could find.
I don't think the mission is to save Jesse because in Walt's mind Jesse is probably already dead. He left him with the Nazis who said they'd kill him. I think Walt wants revenge on the nazis to get his money back and saving Jesse will be a surprising side effect of that. Like...he never htought he'd see him again but boy was he wrong. And you know that Jesse can't forgive Walt now....after the Jane admission and the order to kill him.
Definitely this. Like I said in my self-correction, I think Walt goes back in order to take back his money/protect his family/take revenge (some combination of those) on the Nazis. In the process he saves Jesse, who may very well be the one to kill Walt.
How about we don't tell anyone "nope, you're wrong" on a show that keeps every single one of us guessing?
Lol. The pot calling the kettle black. Whenever I stated my personal thoughts on the plaza scene you were on of the main people berating my for how 'stupid' my opinion on it was.
Definitely. This was probably the most heartbreaking scene in the entirety of the episode, maybe even the whole show. And that's saying something considering how dark the whole episode was. The scene with Holly saying "mama" and Walt realizing what he had to do was tough as well.
Definitely. This was probably the most heartbreaking scene in the entirety of the episode, maybe even the whole show. And that's saying something considering how dark the whole episode was. The scene with Holly saying "mama" and Walt realizing what he had to do was tough as well.
I am starting to wonder if the final showdown will end up being Walt vs Jesse. Is there a scenario in which the Nazis promoted him because he can cook then he uses his new influence to do something to Walts family?
I am starting to wonder if the final showdown will end up being Walt vs Jesse. Is there a scenario in which the Nazis promoted him because he can cook then he uses his new influence to do something to Walts family?
My guess as to who is driving the mini-van is Lydia. She is looking for somebody who can cook and Walt needs somebody to hide him. She had no idea as to what was going down in the desert.
I don't know about that. Jesse would certainly kill Walt at this point (I think), but I don't think he'd go for his family. The Jane admission may have changed that, but I really just can't see Jesse harming Walt's family. The Nazis sure, but I don't think Jesse would aid them in it.
Then again I didn't see the preview for the next episode, so you guys may know something I don't.
Dude, it is that simple for me. It's not a personal attack, so don't become defensive. I Don'tions see how anyone can see Walt as anything but pure evil. he likes to pretend he's a good guy at times, but in the end he's a selfish prick who only cares about himself, if he cared about anyone else, his decisions would have been different.
Also why does everyone seem to feel that Walt wants to "save" Jesse. He pretty much hates Jesse, blames him for Hank's death, and gave him up to Jack. His ego is going to make him go after Jack once he finds out they never killed Jesse and his Product is being made by these guys. But he's not going to go do it because he cares about Jesse.
I'm not being defensive, I think anyone who thinks any character is absolutely evil is wrong. No character in the show is 100% evil. If Walt was, he wouldn't have returned Holly. He still has some positive qualities.
Because, as many have pointed out, Walt isn't 100% evil, he does have regrets and it's not unreasonable that sending Jesse to his torture/death could rank up there on his "things I wish had gone down differently). Being backed into a corner and coming out of it like a scourge on humanity isn't the same as just going around and destroying lives because that's what you enjoy. Revenge is different that outright sociopathic behavior. You write everything Walt's ever done off as "oh, well he's selfish and evil," but that simply doesn't make sense in a many instances.
If you cross Walt, he'll come at you with the fury of a thousand suns, but he's not a sociopath just clipping people off because he likes it.
As far as Jesse goes, the flash-forward is a jump ahead, so it's entirely possible by that point Walt has found out that Jesse is the cooker slave of the Nazi's. It's a guess based on nothing, I don't think anyone is guaranteeing it happens, it'd be a cool thing to see unfold and be the only real redemption possible for Walt.
Lol. The pot calling the kettle black. Whenever I stated my personal thoughts on the plaza scene you were on of the main people berating my for how 'stupid' my opinion on it was.
Hey, jerkoff, here is how you handled Kyle responding respectfully to you:
Jesse isn't stupid, but he's paranoid and isn't thinking clearly as he's currently teaming up with Hank to try and take out a guy he is completely and utterly terrified of.
Did you forget Jesse's comments to the DEA when they were asking him questions? He knows that if he goes after Walter he's completely f*cked, and he comes right out and says that to everyone thinking about doing it.
They wouldn't have focused so much on the guy standing there if "nice try" was simply a line about manipulation. They also wouldn't show that shot of the little girl running up to him and proving that Jesse was wrong.
What about the scene makes it lame? The fact that he thought Walt was going to have him whacked in broad daylight because he's a criminal mastermind?
Please go shove your kettle up your d*ckhole, much thanks.
I am starting to wonder if the final showdown will end up being Walt vs Jesse. Is there a scenario in which the Nazis promoted him because he can cook then he uses his new influence to do something to Walts family?
I don't think there is any scenario where Jesse goes from slave to trusted confidant in the time that passes between now and any kind of showdown in the series finale.
Does Jesse have something of value to trade them? They just found ~$70 mil in the desert, have a cooker for the best meth around and are armed to take on a small army. I don't think there's anything they need from Jesse that would get him into their inner circle, either.
I am starting to wonder if the final showdown will end up being Walt vs Jesse. Is there a scenario in which the Nazis promoted him because he can cook then he uses his new influence to do something to Walts family?
I certainly think that Jesse vs. Walt is the big conflict to be resolved. I don't think they will leave their dynamic where it is, but I have to agree with the others that I don't see Jesse getting in with the Nazi's because he doesn't have anything to offer them really. I have been surprised before though.
...Jesse learned during the first episode how to kill people with red phosphorus. I doubt Walt would've shown Todd that. So Jesse turns Todd's lab against him?
Interesting. They also made a point to show us that the nazis don't like wearing their protective masks during a cook (all of them except Todd, anyway).
I've been the biggest fangirl of The Wire for ages, but I think that I'm ready to place Breaking Bad ahead of it as my favorite television show ever. Or at least a true tie. Never has a show built & built as the end neared. Never has a show had my heart racing & my nerves frayed week after week after week. Sure, many have done so for an episode or two, but not continuously. And when I look back at some of my favorite shows (The Wire, Lost, Sopranos, etc.), never has a show's lead up to the end been soooo very well done, at least in my eyes.
Post by bansheebeat on Sept 16, 2013 11:00:50 GMT -5
I think comparing BB and The Wire is unfair, it's apples and oranges. Comparing Lost and BB is more fair (and I love Lost), and I think BB blows it out of the water generally speaking (especially as we near the finale).
I doubt there's a way to measure this, but I wonder if Breaking Bad is mitigating this country's meth problem in some way. Maybe just by getting people talking about it; raising awareness and so forth. That'd be an awesome outcome.
I sincerely hope you take a shot to the balls sometime in the near future.
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand the cult following that show has. I watched it in its entirety and wanted to launch my TV off my apartment building roof after the series finale.
For someone like you, who is such a big fan of television shows like the Wire and BB that are so carefully crafted on such a detailed scale, I can't see how Lost can compare. The show writers can say they had a plan all along, but the plot of Lost reads like a bunch of college stoners got in a room with some kine bud and made up a story while eating cheese doodles and playing NHL '94 on SNES.
I sincerely hope you take a shot to the balls sometime in the near future.
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand the cult following that show has. I watched it in its entirety and wanted to launch my TV off my apartment building roof after the series finale.
For someone like you, who is such a big fan of television shows like the Wire and BB that are so carefully crafted on such a detailed scale, I can't see how Lost can compare. The show writers can say they had a plan all along, but the plot of Lost reads like a bunch of college stoners got in a room with some kine bud and made up a story while eating cheese doodles and playing NHL '94 on SNES.
I think the finale overrides the rest of the show for a lot of people. I still like the finale no matter what anyone says to the contrary. That being said, they didn't have a plan for the entire series and nobody can tell me any different. One of the reasons season 3 sucked is for that very reason. They had an initial plan but nothing after that, and it really showed. With season 4, they had locked in an end date for the series, and you can see the narrative refocus.