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I'm with these guys. Skip the Crosley and apply that money towards a piece of what you really want. You can definitely find something decent on craigslist used. Just may take some time to get lucky.
I finally reached my savings goal to start buying my new turntable system!! Time for me to admit something pathetic- my only record player is one of those piece of shit Crosley's and I can't take it anymore. So reading about phono stages, preamps, and cartridges makes my head spin because right now I don't have a system so I'm having to start from scratch with learning what this equipment is, which products are quality, and how much I will need to spend. Going to buy all new equipment other than headphones as I just bought v-moda crossfade m100s recently and that is good enough for now. So I have questions for postjack and others who have opinions on this...
It's bewildering, I know, but you are doing the right thing by doing research and asking the right questions.
1. Right now I'm looking on how to allocate my budget. I've read enough about people having a $1000 turntable being a waste of money when you have a $50 speakers but I'm not sure how much should be spent on everything. So if my budget is around $2k for everything how much should be spent on the turntable, preamp, receiver, and speakers??? Right now I'm looking at turntables in the $450-1000 range. How much would I need to spend on the other equipment to be on the same quality level throughout the system?
Generally you want the majority of your budget to go towards a solid set of speakers, since they have the greatest impact on the final sound. But you also don't want some busted ass turntable. As I've said elsewhere I'm a big fan of the Project Debut, which comes with an Ortofon 2M Red. Thats $400, throw in a receiver for $600-800 and your budget starts to erode.
2. I'd like a receiver that I could hook up my TVs, computer, and video game systems to run all my audio on whatever new speakers I buy. I know not all new receivers have a phono inputs and it seems like even the new ones with a phono input are poorly reviewed for vinyl usage. Is it fair to say I need to buy a used receiver?
Do you need a receiver with HDMI, or a receiver that can handle more than more than two speakers? If you are using for television video games etc. I imagine you might. There are no stereo receivers I am aware of that accept HDMI and do video switching. I've been tempted to setup my HT as stereo only, but I love the convenience of HDMI switching and honestly really like a center channel for dialog and bass management for my sub, but I don't use surround speakers.
If you do not need HDMI, I'd look at one of these Yamaha stereo receivers. If I setup the link right they should all have a phono input, but none have HDMI. I think they look great and are generally well reviewed, and the prices are right.
If you need HDMI, there are some great deals on prior year models right now. The Denon X4000 or Yamaha 1030 are about $800 now, cheaper if you buy a refurb through sites like www.accessories4less.com. I believe both of these units have phono inputs. The X4000 comes with the best digital room correction on the market, Audyssey XT32, if you are interested in that.
As to the quality of those phono inputs, I'm not really sure. I haven't heard them myself, but I'm of the opinion that for an MM only phono stage, as long as the capacitance is low enough (usually around 100pF) they should work fine. Unfortunately manufacturers usually don't post capacitance specs. Things get trickier with MC carts, because then you have to get the impedance and gain right, but for your purposes you'll probably just be dealing with MM carts. I like MM carts better anyway because they are just easier to deal with.
The other alternative for a phono stage is to get a Schiit Mani, which I think is like $130 and I'm confident will work very well with any MM cart you throw at it. Then get whatever receiver you want. The guys at Schiit are good people and make great made in the USA products at affordable prices.
3. I like to listen to my music through headphones. I live in an apartment and I try to be quiet in the late evening. Do I have to have a separate headphone amp or can I buy an amplifier that will work for both headphones and speakers?
You don't necessarily need a separate headphone amp for the V-Moda M100. Fantastic headphone by the way, I just bought one for use at work, and ended up using it at home a lot too because they are fun and completely inoffensive. All too often cans with prodigious bass end up completely sucking out the midrange, or being way too bright, but the M100 gives you that bass kick along with a pretty damn accurate midrange and pleasant sparkly highs. Since its a lower impedance phone, any headphone out, which I believe those above receivers have, should be fine. It sounds fantastic straight out of my phone.
When you really need a dedicated headphone amp is when you get into these cans with higher impedance, like the HD800 or other Sennheiser phones, which get up to 300ohms. Even so, I've plugged my HD800 into my Denon 2112CI receiver and it sounds fine to me, but I still prefer a dedicated headphone amp like the Oppo HA-1.
TLDR: If you just want a cool new toy, or if you start getting into higher priced headphones, then consider a dedicated headphone amp. For now whatever receiver you get should be sufficient.
I hope this helped some, let me know if you have anymore questions, I'm hanging around the house studying today so I appreciate any distractions.
Generally you want the majority of your budget to go towards a solid set of speakers, since they have the greatest impact on the final sound. But you also don't want some busted ass turntable. As I've said elsewhere I'm a big fan of the Project Debut, which comes with an Ortofon 2M Red. Thats $400, throw in a receiver for $600-800 and your budget starts to erode.
Thanks!!!!
The 2k for a budget is a goal. I can realistically spend up to $3500 without much of an issue. Right now the turntables I'm looking at are a new Rega RP1 or Rega RP1 with the performance pack or a used Rega RP3 or used Technicas 1200 MK2 and this will end up in the 400-800 range. If I spend 600-800 on a receiver, what would be an appropriate budget for speakers to justify the turntable and receiver? When it comes to speakers, I don't need anything extremely loud in terms of decibels, I'd rather have something that sounds great at any volume.
I love the headphones I got. Most of the reviews I read said they were bass heavy without messing with the midrange and I found that to be true. So for my speakers, I don't have to have pure audiophile speakers. I can buy something with more personality.
I have the Rega P3/24, which was the precursor to the RP3, and the SL1200MK2, both are awesome decks in their own ways. I've probably mentioned this to you before but the Rega decks are great because if you use a Rega cart, they automatically align because of the 3 point mounting system. Then you just have to set VTF and you are done. Which is another thing to mention, you may want to pickup something like a Shure Stylus Force Gauge (cheap, like $10 I think) to properly measure VTF. You can do it by eye by leveling the tonearm, but I like the assurance that its set according to cartridge specifications, so I'm getting the best sound and not damaging my records. If you buy a 1200 or RP3 you could use those tables forever.
For speakers, do you want bookshelves or towers? Bookshelves will require a stand, and may lack deep bass, but are easier to power. I prefer bookshelves, mated with a sub for things like movies (or Quad electrostatic speakers but those are a whole different animal). Regarding speaker selection I'm unfortunately not super experienced, and its really hard to recommend speakers since so much comes down to personal preference. One option is to go somewhere you can hear speakers you are interested in, but even then how the speakers interact with your room could make them sound different than in a shop. Another option is to buy from an online store or internet direct manufacturer, after reading reviews and whatnot online to whittle down your options.
Generally I'd look into Ascend Acoustics (internet direct with return policy), SVS Ultra series (internet direct with return policy), PSB (can purchase from Crutchfield with return policy). But there are so many other choices for speakers.
Probably the hot shit right now in bookshelves are either the Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2 or the Kef LS50. Both are pretty expensive at around $1500, but the LS50 won Stereophile's Product of the Year, pretty unprecedented for a speaker at that price level, and the Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2 added a RAAL tweeter and supposedly represent excellent value for the money. Unfortunately I've heard neither.
So to directly answer your question, and please know I'm just kind of pulling a number out of my ass, maybe in the $1,000-$1,500 range? I'm probably saying that because its where I'm most comfortable. Of course that's new, you could save money buying used on audiogon or craigslist.
Regarding HDMI switching and the receiver. I only use 1 audio source at a time. I will have the TV on mute when I listen to music. I just want all of my audio equipment (TV, video games, turntable) to be played through whatever new speakers I buy. Also, I think I'm fine with going with a 2.1 speaker system. I have read that 5.1 or 7.1 isn't really needed for vinyl and I'm upgrading my speakers for music much more than I am doing it to play movies in surround sound. I assume I will still need a fancy receiver...
Word. Yeah stereo is king for music, I only use my center for tv and movies.
I would look at those Yamaha stereo receivers I posted earlier, or the Outlaw RR2150, which is generally adored as the king of current production stereo receivers (forgot to mention this one earlier). It's the only stereo receiver I'm aware of that will properly cutoff both your speakers and sub if you decide to add a sub at some point. The Yammy stereo receivers will cutoff your sub, but still play your speakers full range, which may cause issues with blending your sub into the sound. Of course if you don't plan on getting a sub none of that matters. Outlaw is an internet direct manufacturer and it has a phono input as well. It's $799.
postjack what would your thoughts be on this: Rega RP1 w/performance pack, marantz pm 6004, and B&W 685 s2. That would be right at $2000 with shipping and warranties. Are those speakers overkill for the integrated amp? The more I think about buying a complete turntable, amp, and speakers is that I'd rather be closer to a $2k budget than a $3k budget as I will upgrade over time and it doesn't make sense to go nuts on a sound system when I live in a 1 bedroom apartment in a multi-unit building. I'd prefer to not piss off my neighbors too often.
I'm wondering which is a better use of the money... a $650 turntable with a $350 cartridge/stylus or a $900 table with a $100 cartridge/stylus. For example, I could go with the RP1 performance pack with a Ortofon bronze or RP3 with Ortofon red.
Again, the disclaimer that I'm just talking half subjective half objective, a lot of this is just how I "feel" about certain things for whatever that is worth:
-RP1 with Performance Pack: My issue with buying this is you are mostly paying for the cartridge, which is $165 on its own. So if you buy the performance pack then immediately switch out the cartridge, you are throwing away a lot of money just for a new belt and felt mat. If you are going to buy the bronze and RP1 I'd just buy the stock RP1 and throw the bronze on there. You can buy a new mat and belt separately later if you want.
-Ortofon 2M Bronze: Having said that, there is no doubt in my mind that the 2M Bronze would provide you with better performance over the Rega Bias. I have the 2M Black and love it, and the Bronze is just one step "down" from the black, but lots of people actually prefer the bronze because it is slightly more forgiving than the black, meaning it picks up less surface noise.
-Marantz PM 6004: I can't believe I forgot to recommend integrated amps previously. The Marantz budget integrateds are routinely reviewed very highly. Since Marantz is such a large company economies of scale allow them to make quality hi fi gear at a low price. Again I haven't heard one myself but I feel confident you would get great performance out of this unit.
-B&W 685 s2: I know nothing of B&W speakers other than their reputation, which is good. I've never heard them myself so can't offer any concrete opinions. They are reasonable efficient at 87db so the PM6004 should have no issues driving them. What I have heard, for what its worth, about B&W speakers is they are the typically British sound, which means you won't have pounding bass, the treble will possibly be a little polite, but they should have a lovely midrange. Again, just pulling this out of random crap I've read on the internet. If you could hear them yourself that would be awesome.
-Turntable vs Cartridge: different people will have different opinions, I believe money is better spent on the cartridge. I'd prefer an RP1 with a Bronze over an RP3 with a Red. My only concern is an RP1 will probably be upgraded at some point, whereas an RP3 you could live with forever. Of course that is all subjective and depends on how you feel about the sound once you get it all setup. And again, never heard an RP1 so just talking out of my ass.
I think we have to wait until October for Fixer to ship. I got Lingam in the mail a couple of days ago.
I know a while back they said the Fixer release was delayed until November... I haven't heard anything since and here we are halfway through the month. Have you heard/read anything?
Edit: Nevermind... I got an email update but it must've been in my spam folder.
Post by Vinnie the Eel on Nov 17, 2014 14:59:55 GMT -5
Anyone have any opinions on tube amps? I was thinking about getting into this, I've been setting up pretty vintage as far, using a Technix turntable from the 70s. I've got B&O Beovox S60s and a beovox 1900 receiver. I love the sound but I'm not sure I have the discerning ear to appreciate all that this amp phenomenon would bring me? I definitely don't have the best hearing to begin with. I'm just trying to perfect this set up to me, honestly. All opinions appreciated.
Anyone have any opinions on tube amps? I was thinking about getting into this, I've been setting up pretty vintage as far, using a Technix turntable from the 70s. I've got B&O Beovox S60s and a beovox 1900 receiver. I love the sound but I'm not sure I have the discerning ear to appreciate all that this amp phenomenon would bring me? I definitely don't have the best hearing to begin with. I'm just trying to perfect this set up to me, honestly. All opinions appreciated.
you can find a hundred different opinions on the subject of amps. I generally believe based on my experience that as long as the amp has enough power to push the speakers in question, audible differences between different solid state designs will be minimal.
But tubes can definitely sound different than solid state, without a doubt. Even different tubes sound different. I'm not good with the technical stuff in audio, but to put it as I understand it, tubes impart a type of harmonic distortion that is pleasing to some ears. Not as accurate as solid state, but sometimes we don't want accurate, we want euphony.
The issue with tube amps is they generally don't put out near the amount of power that solid state does, so you need to either have really efficient speakers, or pay big bucks for a tube amp that does put out gobs of power. And current production tube amps in general, regardless of wattage, are more expensive then their solid state counterparts. Vintage tube amps can be found cheaper, but often are very old and require refurbishment.
I've always wanted to have some sweet tube power amps for speakers but have never pulled the trigger on one. All my experience comes from tube headphone amps. I currently have a tube headphone amp and a solid state headphone amp. The tube headphone amp clearly sweetens the midrange a bit and adds some bass bloom, which again isn't accurate but it sounds really nice to my ears.
Another thing to note is that tubes do die eventually, so you'll have to factor in the cost of future tubes on whatever tube amp you purchase. Tubes are generally way more finicky than solid state, as tubes can develop microphonics, or have to be biased, or sometimes even blow your transducer up. I had a bad tube (or maybe a bad tube amp, given the reputation of the manufacturer) blow the driver on my Grado RS-1 a few years back. Luckily I had them around my neck when I powered up the amp, because the driver put forth an incredibly loud pop that no doubt would have left my ears ringing for days had I had them on. Luckily Grado fixed them out of warranty for pretty cheap.
So my system is all set up and has been functional since last night. There are a few changes to be made to the turntable but I'm 90% there. The turntable I went with was the Rega RP1. There is a deal on Amazon, link here that had the RP1 sold with a record washing system for the same price as the RP1. The issue was it didn't mention there being a cartridge sold with the system and as I wanted a nicer cartridge than what came with the RP1 anyway so I went with the combo deal and bought a cartridge separately. I was surprised to find the RP1 came with the Carbon cartridge even though it wasn't listed on the Amazon site. So for anyone buying a RP1, definitely go with that deal as it was the default RP1 package with a free spin clean. The cartridge I bought separately was the Rega Bias MK2 but now that I have the default Carbon cartridge, I think I'm going to return the Bias cartridge and just buy the performance pack as it also has the Bias cartridge but also the upgraded belt for only $30 more.
The amp I went with is the Marantz PM5004. It was listed at $300 on that refurbished site but I bought it for $370 from an online retailer as their site offered a new, unopened item and came with a full 3 year warranty and not 1 year like the refurbished site. My TV has an analog out so I have the TV, video game system, mobile phone, and turntable all running music from the amp. Speakers... I went with the B&W 658 S2. Best Buy had an opened S1 for $450 but even though they were new, the technology was 7 years old so I went with the new model. I need to spend more time moving them around to get the best sound but when I turn it up and let it show off some, I come away very happy. The Best Buy/Magnolia guys took me for about $200 in cables and connectors for everything and I know its a ripoff but I really didn't feel like terminating cables.
Once I return the cartridge and the buy the RP1 performance pack, I will be at about $2100. I could have done it for $1600 and I'm sure I will add stuff eventually but I wanted a system I would be fine with for at least a few years. I saved some of my budget for upgrade to the PS3 and TV around Black Friday. More than anything, I really enjoy having conversations with people at record stores and it was always so embarrassing when someone asked me what system I had and I had to say a Crosley and find a way to laugh it off. Thanks to postjack for the help. I owe you a few beers.
Sounds like you made quite a few excellent purchases. I have one question for you, because it became an issue for me. The Marantz integrated receiver... I had an integrated receiver and eventually had to get an amp instead because I could hear the interference (best I could describe it was a buzzzz-whee) when I listened to my records. It was faint, but the longer it was there the louder I perceived it to be. Telltale heart style. Once I got an amp and stereo receiver just for the turntable, it was gone instantly. My question is this: did it come up at all when shopping? If so, what are your thoughts on the matter? Its crazy how much of a sound snob I became once my system started to take shape. Is that happening to you at all? Did it happen to anyone else or am I just a obsessive freak?
One more question, unrelated to the above. I inherited my mom's old records a long time ago, like many of us I'm sure. One of the things I got was an original V6 of The Velvet Underground with an unpeeled banana....with no record inside. I don't really know what to do with it. I have a repress of the record, and listen to it and it sounds fantastic. What should I do with this cover? I know it has value, but I don't really know what value it has and if I will regret selling it or trading it away. And I don't really feel good about buying a peeled copy just to empty the jacket and make the set. Any thoughts?
One more question, unrelated to the above. I inherited my mom's old records a long time ago, like many of us I'm sure. One of the things I got was an original V6 of The Velvet Underground with an unpeeled banana....with no record inside. I don't really know what to do with it. I have a repress of the record, and listen to it and it sounds fantastic. What should I do with this cover? I know it has value, but I don't really know what value it has and if I will regret selling it or trading it away. And I don't really feel good about buying a peeled copy just to empty the jacket and make the set. Any thoughts?
Frame that shiz. I "inherited" a bunch of Impulse records that way (cover/no record) and had them framed for my record room.