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ON TERM LIMITS HELPING:--In this, and many cases, term limits helping is a farce. Congresspeople and senators are often eager to leave public service once they have attained power and connections, especially from powerful committees . Their next step is to put out their hands and make oodles of $ by using the influence gained during public service. Often powerful thinktanks and lobbying organizations are headed by former public servants. This is the vehicle for connecting the influence of private $ to public office. These are the people who present the lobbyist written agendas and take the payola, often in the form of sold out book tour dates, etc... And more often, nowhere near that sneaky. If a 3rd party were to be elected, this practice would most likely be made illegal. Just don't trust either of the "options" we have now to cut off their own ability to BANK !
ON NOT BEING AFRAID OF LOBBYISTS BUT GOVERNMENT: see above
Ironic that this should somewhat devolve into finger pointing at Obama(and props to those not letting it !). People who recognize that there is NOT a heap of difference between Dems and Reps ALSO DESIRE TO BE COVERED. The reason that DEMS will not have the persistence to see this through ? Most of them are centrist corporatists who are also on the take. Can't piss off the pharmy lobby too bad. Not them AND the AARP. How ya gonna get re-elected do gooder ????
My mom(in her early 60s) is currently forced to pay over 900 dollars a month for insurance in order to get her pre existing conditions covered. And they STILL are denying her and hassling her on issues that have formerly been covered with no questions asked.
She was formerly covered on my step dad's insurance.
He was a few years from retiring as an electrical lineman. They had it good. Full coverage, vision, dental, life, etc. These were offered to him as BENEFITS of his salary package.
Then he blew his knee out TOTALLY-on the job. After undergoing surgery for his knee, he developed massive internal bleeding, most likely from complications of the NO NO WORD!!! given to him to deal with the knee injury-blood thinners, painkillers, etc.
As a result of the bleeding, he entered into a coma, where he stayed for six months. During this time, my mom was approached by a private insurance company that his employer had contracted with to help cut down their workers comp claims. They were supplementary insurance -and my mom trusted them as a third party of her husband's employer and a partner to the state's worker's comp program.
Well-she shouldn't have. They strongarmed a settlement on her while her husband was in a coma. She was facing loss of much of their retirement and no way to pay these bills, as counseled by attorneys from this 3rd party insurer.
To spare you all the details of the years of heartache and pain that my family has endured, I'll cut to the chase. Step dad has about 50% company retirement and NO company benefits. Stepdad covered by Medicare. Mom covered by no one-too young for government relief(in her sixties), would have full coverage.
Who loses ? MoM, Stepdad, people who NEEDED gov. help who weren't owed by the private insurance companies who SHIRKED ALL RESPONSIBILITY.
900 a month and NO ability to work because of health problems.
Sorry, she just can't get another hostess job that DOES offer insurance.....
Last Edit: Aug 20, 2009 8:50:59 GMT -5 by red - Back to Top
There was a time my mom and stepdad were all about the Iraq and Afghani wars and the war on terrorism. They NEVER thought for an instant about the trillions being spent on faulty information and pride or whatever, and the impact that might have on our budget well into their grandchildren's adulthood.
But get a bunch of healthy wealthy Americans fired up about taxes, and the disadvantaged of this country are to be the ones who will sacrifice.
IF YOU WORK HARD FOR A LIVING, YOU SHOULD BE PROUD TO HELP THE DISADVANTAGED OF THIS COUNTRY. IT'S BASICALLY THE PREMISE UPON WHICH WE ARE FOUNDED.
and sorry to get all kanye-if I am not careful, I am sure to break my Macbook....
Forgive me for not being clear. What I was trying to get across was the fact that all these promises were made in order to pass the past bills. Fiscally, all the promises were broken. How can we believe any numbers the white house throws at us regarding healthcare.
Red, where on earth does it say an advantaged Americans job is to work hard, only to have the fruit of their labors taken away and given to the disadvantaged? Hell, I'm all for giving a helping hand, but where does it stop? Is there ever a point where someone says, "damn, we take too much from the rich.". Or is it ok just to keep on punishing the rich, as long as the poor are doing ok.
Punish the rich by taxing them Vs. punish the poor by killing them. My mom never had the opportunity to work in her father's doctor's office. But she worked hard all her life and now she is getting worked over. People who worked very little over their lifetimes are offered the safety net of social security as a meager step towards retirement. Why not a step towards universal coverage ?? Because those who have more want MORE.(in the form of paying less).
"Give us your poor, huddled,... ...."yada yada yada. That's at the gate to our fine country. Not on MY dime must be somewhere in the fine print.
Taxes are not a burden but a responsibility (dare I say a privilege) of citizenship. The "advantaged" made their money using the infratstructure, courts, laws, and hard workers of this country. A percentage back to help fund these is only fair.
The real argument is about the amount of taxes. In the 50's the top tax rate was over 90% and the rich stayed rich and the economy grew vigorously. In the 60's the top rate was 78% with the same results. I believe a 39% top tax rate (as was the case in the economic boom of the 90's) is not in the least bit unfair or unreasonable.
And a 39% top rate, with no increase to the middle class (lower 93%), would fund healthcare.
Last Edit: Aug 20, 2009 11:02:46 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
Red...I like the way leftists will use a phrase from some monument (or any other place, minus constitution or laws) when it's to there advantage. Why is it that some many leftist groups though shudder at the thought of "in god we trust" on their money?
Troo...I can see your argument on the top having to pay a "fair share"? And yes, those taxes would help tremendously. However, think five to ten years from now, and prob not that long, but how long will those funds last when our population continues to grow? We have tons of illegal women that have their babies over here, and bam, the kid is a us citizen with all the priveledges that it comes with. As soon as healthcare for all is passed, the flood gates from Mexico will be shattered. More so than they are today. Btw, I do not support the idea of an illegal mother having a child here to get benifits for her child. That kid should be considered illegal too, because then you can't separate them.
Sorry for seeming to get off topic, again. Just debating what has been asked of me. Let me tie in the whole illegal situation to healthcare. I'm sure we all know it, but don't say it. Hispanics, and in particular mexicans, breed like rabbits. They won't be satisfied with one kid. Please tell me how we will pay for all these should-be-illegal kids? Do we just keep taxing the rich?
If it weren't so sad and personal, I'd find it laughable that people make a politically charged mockery out of seeing to it that no citizen is denied adequate health care coverage.
All of these people that are so concerned about governmental efficiency....where were they when competitive bidding was removed from the federal contracting process ? Are they working hard to promote efficiency in the pentagon ? Are they townhalling because the gubment has screwed up our library system ??
The fact is, some regulation is needed in order to protect those who have been dealt poor genetics, changes of employment, bad luck, or whatever undesirable circumstance in life that has left them without access to proper healthcare. The corporations fighting so hard to stop any change to the system are doing it for bottom line. They have access to governmental policy making moreso than my sick mom to say the least. Anyone bitching about taxes or socialism in this instance, has been lucky enough not to be victimized by the current system, or they wouldn't interject the red herrings of immigrant healthcare or governmental ineptitude into this debate.
I am not a democrat, nor republican. Just a patriot. Knocking Obama doesn't fix the issues. Neither does repeating talking points. Find people who are suffering and find a way to help them....or go hide on your yacht and pray for a way to get your money into heaven...
Your question Jig: Red, where on earth does it say an advantaged Americans job is to work hard, only to have the fruit of their labors taken away and given to the disadvantaged?
My answer: "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Nothing leftist, rightist, or up and downest.
I believe everything else would be an effort to weaken my stance by lumping me in with a group you may find it easy to dismiss.
Respectfully decline to make this personal(between you and I) so as to not waste space where facts and testimonials might bring real help to suffering PEOPLE, or at least some UNDERSTANDING to people caught in the safety of repeating talking points....
i would say I'm similar to you, red, in the sense that I don't consider myself a rep or dem, but a patriot as well.we both see the need to help people, but have different ideas of how to achieve that goal. I do feel for the disadvantaged, I see them everyday. I just don't believe taking from the few to give to the masses promotes much. I believe that creates dependency. I remember a patient who went from Medicaid to chip due to a promotion at the mothers job. When the mother found out she had to pay a three dollar copay, she did everything in her power to get back on Medicaid. Dependence.
When you watch someone you love lose everything and hear the debate steered toward government efficiency ...you tend to discount the opinions of salvia steeped doctors sons.
I remember a patient who went from Medicaid to chip due to a promotion at the mothers job. When the mother found out she had to pay a three dollar copay, she did everything in her power to get back on Medicaid. Dependence.
Yea but that's just one isolated case to support your argument. Not every single person in the U.S. would do this. While you fear that it MAY create dependency in SOME people.....others would be greatly helped and appreciate it. Which is better? Helping some, while a portion abuse the system or helping none so we don't risk people becoming dependent? And let's face it....in just about every institution or government system there are going to be people who abuse it.
I'm really on the fence about this whole thing......maybe because i'm not as educated on these issues as everyone else.....maybe because I see some valid arguments from both sides. One thing's for sure....the irrational hating and misleading information has got to go (and that doesn't go for inforoo....just in general - this thread is filled with courteous discussion).
That actually hurts, red. I'm sorry about your mom. I'm sorry for the things that have been hurtful in your life. I'm sorry that I was born the son of a doctor, and that I enjoy things that others on here prob enjoy, too. I don't think though that my upbringing or choices decide whether my points are valid.
Believe me, I really do sympathize, and if there was a way I could help in easing your pain I would do it in a heart beat. Once again though, I don't believe over-taxing the minority to pay for the masses is the way to go.
I am just so tired of hearing about these "apparent" death panels. I'm not a hardcore democrat, but am a hardcore liberal and i will always refuse to be on the side of anyone who throws around the word "Hitler" as if its just some guy with bad healthcare practices.
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
Comparing Obama to Hitler (or anyone else to Hitler for that matter) shows how stupid these people really are. They are unable to reference any other "bad government" so they just use the only one they know, Hitler's Germany.
This is the reason we live in a Democratic Republic and not a true Democracy. It's one thing for a politician to listen to his/her constituents, but if they are spouting off this psychobabble from la-la land the representative needs to do what is good for his people and not necessarily what they want.
Well no need to take what I say personally Jig. Also, no need to be sorry for my circumstance.
You and I are but two separate example of citizens who have a stake in this debate. We each stand to lose something dear to us.
I'm just looking to give a testimonial for someone who is neither lazy nor illegal nor an Obama fan who is having it rough with NO COMPASSION from the greed of private healthcare corporations acting with no interference from the government and making record profits while denying minimal coverage.
I don't mean to be harsh and dismiss your opinion. But it should be clear that you and others who scream so loudly about Obama and socialism and taxes often have unrestricted access to healthcare and seem to take it for granted that people die broke over this injustice every day through no fault of their own. I guess the salvia comment was out of bounds-we all recharge our batteries in our own ways. Sorry.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Aug 20, 2009 21:21:27 GMT -5
I think far fewer brilliant minds will become doctors, and I think many doctors will retire. Also doctors are the ones leading medical research. When competition is eliminated (which will happen, the insurance companies will not be able to compete against the government), so is advancement.
Also to clarify something I said earlier, that Dr.s lead medical research, well obviously is the NO NO WORD!!! companies conducting and paying for research, so that wasn't a totally fair statement.
One thing you should notice about that list immediately is that 6 of the top 10 Pharma Co.'s are located in countries with nationalized medicine.
Of course, this still isn't an accurate assessment of how medical advances occur. Public universities and the NIH (i.e., govenment) fund most medical research in the US: newledger.com/2009/07/how-medical....-megan-mcardle/
For those of you interested in where medical innovation comes from, this article is much more comprehensive than the other link I provided: www.nybooks.com/articles/17244
Comparing Obama to Hitler (or anyone else to Hitler for that matter) shows how stupid these people really are. They are unable to reference any other "bad government" so they just use the only one they know, Hitler's Germany.
This is the reason we live in a Democratic Republic and not a true Democracy. It's one thing for a politician to listen to his/her constituents, but if they are spouting off this psychobabble from la-la land the representative needs to do what is good for his people and not necessarily what they want.
Um, there is plenty of bad government to reference. Should we start using "Stalin" or "Kim Jong Il" instead? Besides, more often than not, it's the left calling the right all the awful names (Nazi, terrorist, Hitler, hate-monger, evil). Well guess what? It's not evil to be rich. Some people are rich and some people are poor. That's life, and it's not the government's role to "fix" everyone's problems. When I was little, and complained that "it's not fair", my dad's response was always "that's right; a fair is a place to go to have fun, so no, life is not fair". And that's the truth.
I grew up with really young parents who were super poor. I remember my mom going to college when I was little. I watched them work so hard and bust their asses for 20 years to get into that top tax bracket--and the only reason they are in it is because of my dad's business, not because of their personal incomes, though they are still taxed that way (they had to pay many thousands in taxes this year, not to mention the insane payroll taxes and other monthly and quarterly taxes). So yeah, I don't want to see his hard work taken away. He was handed no special favors or opportunities, he just worked really hard. Same with my mom. In fact, if anything, the odds were against them. But they did just fine...and they managed to always have jobs where they had insurance so that they never had to have themselves or us (the kids) on government health care. Would life have been easier with food stamps? Perhaps. Instead my mom made bread everyday, and never wasted an ounce of food. It's not my fault other people don't want to work that hard. If you are lazy, it's not my problem. If you are one of the FEW heartbreaking cases of people who really can't get proper care, then I am happy to help. But those stories are the exception not the rule.
Um, there is plenty of bad government to reference. Should we start using "Stalin" or "Kim Jong Il" instead? Besides, more often than not, it's the left calling the right all the awful names (Nazi, terrorist, Hitler, hate-monger, evil).
I think comparing Americas gov't to either of those is pretty offensive. Do you really think Obama is going to have purges? If you really feel that way you do not know a lot about history.
As to your other points it is fine that your parents make money, I own a fairly successful small business myself. Everyone pays taxes on their income and payroll though in every country there is. If people making more than 500,000 a year get taxed back at the level they were under REAGAN I am not going to waste a lot of tears on them.
On a separate note I think Ayn Rand is ruining this country.
Last Edit: Aug 21, 2009 8:00:06 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
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Um, there is plenty of bad government to reference. Should we start using "Stalin" or "Kim Jong Il" instead? Besides, more often than not, it's the left calling the right all the awful names (Nazi, terrorist, Hitler, hate-monger, evil). Well guess what? It's not evil to be rich. Some people are rich and some people are poor. That's life, and it's not the government's role to "fix" everyone's problems. When I was little, and complained that "it's not fair", my dad's response was always "that's right; a fair is a place to go to have fun, so no, life is not fair". And that's the truth.
I grew up with really young parents who were super poor. I remember my mom going to college when I was little. I watched them work so hard and bust their donkeys for 20 years to get into that top tax bracket--and the only reason they are in it is because of my dad's business, not because of their personal incomes, though they are still taxed that way (they had to pay many thousands in taxes this year, not to mention the insane payroll taxes and other monthly and quarterly taxes). So yeah, I don't want to see his hard work taken away. He was handed no special favors or opportunities, he just worked really hard. Same with my mom. In fact, if anything, the odds were against them. But they did just fine...and they managed to always have jobs where they had insurance so that they never had to have themselves or us (the kids) on government health care. Would life have been easier with food stamps? Perhaps. Instead my mom made bread everyday, and never wasted an ounce of food. It's not my fault other people don't want to work that hard. If you are lazy, it's not my problem. If you are one of the FEW heartbreaking cases of people who really can't get proper care, then I am happy to help. But those stories are the exception not the rule.
Your story is much like mine. Only I left out the "hero works hard to overcome what life has handed to them", and fast forwarded to the part ..."only to be devastated by medical emergency and ensuing debacle of insurance cancellations and procedure refusals", etc., etc., etc.
I see you are twenty-four now. I am almost forty. I certainly would have been able to see things more in the slant that you do because of my PERSONAL experience to that point in life. I guess I'm glad that I did not make such widespread generalizations about the lazy/entitled people of the world AT THAT POINT, because I may feel guilt for that now. I guess taxes only matter until you can't barely breathe and no one will help.
I hope your family never gets sick. I hope that if/when they do, their is compassion that surrounds you instead of political talk of taxes/government/waste/Obama.
I hope , as you age, you gain compassion, yourself. For those other than your family, who are less better off, DESPITE ALL THEIR BEST EFFORTS AND DECADES OF PRIOR SUCCESSES.
I am not describing a red herring. I have read estimates that 40-60 people die in this country every day from issues related to being denied adequate care because of $. These people are veterans, retirees, youths, victims of chronic illness, and small business owners.
Given the suffering, can't we pick out a better issue to be passionate about than tax relief ?
I definitely was NOT comparing U.S. gov't to those that I mentioned...I was responding to his claim that "they were unable to reference any 'bad gov't' "
Oh-and one last thing. It was good of your dad to teach you not to expect that the world be fair. HOWEVER, I doubt he was saying that it wasn't worth working towards trying to make it a little more equitable for all--even those lowly, lazy immigrants that the Statue of Liberty used to welcome......
I do have compassion, though I will admit that was a kind of emotional post, so it may not have sounded that way. The truth is, I have said over and over again that a situation like yours is exactly the kind of situation that I support paying for. I mean even beyond taxes, if I had the money personally to help in a situation like that, then I would. Furthermore, those situations are not what usually happens. Fortunately, most people don't suffer from those same severe circumstances. I'm very sorry for what you've had to go through/are going through, Red; and who knows, maybe age will change me, but for now, I have to stand up for what I believe is best for the present and future. I'm not guaranteed tomorrow, so I need to do what I feel is right today.
Oh-and one last thing. It was good of your dad to teach you not to expect that the world be fair. HOWEVER, I doubt he was saying that it wasn't worth working towards trying to make it a little more equitable for all--even those lowly, lazy immigrants that the Statue of Liberty used to welcome......
I'm sorry if my posts are coming off as hateful. I am not a hateful person. I will try to be more careful with my words, and debating with fact instead of emotion.
The point is-NONE of us have the kind of money that would help my mom out. And she was just like your mom before tragedy struck. It has all been a manipulation by PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES with no help or intervention from the government. I cannot sit back and let this go the "Obama's a socialist" route because the issue is FINALLY getting some consideration. But then there are those who pipe in about government waste and taxes and yada yada bottom line talk. And I can't help thinking, "Where were THEY for ANY of the other instances to protest government waste???".
Thanks for the sentiment , though. However, it should be noted that even Glen Beck, Limbaugh, or O'Reilly would have compassion for MY case--it's just all those other wasteful so and so's in the Obama administration that impassion them to KEEP EVERYTHING THE SAME and to get people so worked up about lazy immigrants and whatnot-that we all forget my mom.
And for the record, I don't find you hateful. I find you passionate about that which you have experienced !!
Comparing Obama to Hitler (or anyone else to Hitler for that matter) shows how stupid these people really are. They are unable to reference any other "bad government" so they just use the only one they know, Hitler's Germany.
This is the reason we live in a Democratic Republic and not a true Democracy. It's one thing for a politician to listen to his/her constituents, but if they are spouting off this psychobabble from la-la land the representative needs to do what is good for his people and not necessarily what they want.
Um, there is plenty of bad government to reference. Should we start using "Stalin" or "Kim Jong Il" instead? Besides, more often than not, it's the left calling the right all the awful names (Nazi, terrorist, Hitler, hate-monger, evil). Well guess what? It's not evil to be rich. Some people are rich and some people are poor. That's life, and it's not the government's role to "fix" everyone's problems. When I was little, and complained that "it's not fair", my dad's response was always "that's right; a fair is a place to go to have fun, so no, life is not fair". And that's the truth.
Ok, apparently what I should have said was, "These people are unable to reference any other bad government that HAS ANYTHING REMOTELY TO DO WITH THE CURRENT ISSUE AT HAND." Any person could name bad governments but comparing Hitler to Obama (or Stalin or Kim Jong Il) is just silly. These people are extremists.
I grew up with really young parents who were super poor. I remember my mom going to college when I was little. I watched them work so hard and bust their donkeys for 20 years to get into that top tax bracket--and the only reason they are in it is because of my dad's business, not because of their personal incomes, though they are still taxed that way (they had to pay many thousands in taxes this year, not to mention the insane payroll taxes and other monthly and quarterly taxes). So yeah, I don't want to see his hard work taken away. He was handed no special favors or opportunities, he just worked really hard. Same with my mom. In fact, if anything, the odds were against them. But they did just fine...and they managed to always have jobs where they had insurance so that they never had to have themselves or us (the kids) on government health care. Would life have been easier with food stamps? Perhaps. Instead my mom made bread everyday, and never wasted an ounce of food. It's not my fault other people don't want to work that hard. If you are lazy, it's not my problem. If you are one of the FEW heartbreaking cases of people who really can't get proper care, then I am happy to help. But those stories are the exception not the rule.
I also come from a small business family. My dad started our business when I was 3 months old, so it has paralleled my entire life. So I know a thing or two about small business. And let me tell you, payroll taxes are not "insane," same goes for quartlies. That is the cost of doing business. Anybody who gripes about the purpose of taxes has no idea what goes on in the real world. Saying that you are willing to help "the FEW heartbreaking cases of people who really can't get proper care" is crazy. As if there were some type of panel that would hear each claim for government aid? That would be a real "Death Panel." That is like saying "I don't have kids in school so I don't want to pay taxes toward education."
Also, as a small business family we've always had catastrophic insurance. That's it. No dental. No vision. Why? Because it costs way too much for us to be covered. This is the way it is for the majority of small businesses. Everyone talks about the uninsured, but they forget the under-insured.
Sometimes I think conservatives live in an alternate reality where everything is black and white and there are no gray areas. Where the world was frozen in time circa 1950.
I see you are twenty-four now. I am almost forty. I certainly would have been able to see things more in the slant that you do because of my PERSONAL experience to that point in life. I guess I'm glad that I did not make such widespread generalizations about the lazy/entitled people of the world AT THAT POINT, because I may feel guilt for that now. I guess taxes only matter until you can't barely breathe and no one will help.
I hope , as you age, you gain compassion, yourself. For those other than your family, who are less better off, DESPITE ALL THEIR BEST EFFORTS AND DECADES OF PRIOR SUCCESSES.
One thing I've learned as I've gotten older and had more contact with people from different socio-economic backgrounds and cultures is that I don't have enough knowledge or insight to determine who does or doesn't deserve things like health care.