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I agree as well. I'm not against having a gun. I just don't think you need to take it on the road. My (probably dimwitted) interpretation of the Constitution is that you can have a gun at home to defend that home. I know that's not what is the law in most of the country. I think most of the problems with guns occur when people take them for a ride.
I agree as well. I'm not against having a gun. I just don't think you need to take it on the road. My (probably dimwitted) interpretation of the Constitution is that you can have a gun at home to defend that home. I know that's not what is the law in most of the country. I think most of the problems with guns occur when people take them for a ride.
Well responsibility plays a role if you choose to carry a gun, but the reasons for doing so do not end at your front door.
That's kind of what we were getting at, how the left has no ownership of that particular issue. We've got something like nine guns for every ten Americans these days, which makes for a pretty big demographic to just be ceding to the other side of the aisle.
For the most part, I have no problem whatsoever with other people having guns. I certainly don't have a problem with Democrats that favor gun rights. They are, rather, the ones I've thrown more of myself into supporting.
My preferred presidential candidate in 2008 was former New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, for whom I spent my final winter break of college volunteering in Iowa & New Hampshire. He was the only Democratic governor to have an A grade from the NRA as well as their endorsement for his gubernatorial reelection.
There Wisconsin's former Senator, Russ Feingold. He wrote a three hundred page thesis on the Second Amendment his senior year of college, deciding that it conferred an individual right upon citizens. He was an author of Wisconsin's constitutional right to bear arms. (Before being elected U.S. Senator, Feingold was a Wisconsin state senator.) He may have had a bit of a mixed record as far as the gun lobby was concerned, but he always had that maverick determination to do what he thought was right and best regardless of political affiliation. I'll quote the man himself, as he once put it on the floor of the Senate: I have never accepted the proposition that the gun debate is a black and white issue, a matter of 'you're with us, or you're against us.' Instead, I have followed what I believe is a moderate course, faithful to the Constitution and to the realities of modern society. I believe that the Second Amendment was not an afterthought, that it has meaning today and must be respected. I support the right to bear arms for lawful purposes — for hunting and sport and for self-protection. Millions of Americans own firearms legally and we should not take action that tells them that they are second-class citizens or that their constitutional rights are under attack. At the same time, there are actions we can and should take to protect public safety that do not infringe on constitutional rights. I couldn't have said it better if I tried.
So yeah, self-protection... If I'm not mistaken, I am writing this in the wee hours of Day 132. Our resistance would have been quashed and declared an unlawful assembly long ago had there been any violence afoot. We all know Walker & Co. would've gladly jumped on any reason to step it up on the law enforcement front. That never happened, because we are and have always been peaceful out there. We never gave them that reason, to which the longevity and tenacity of what we're doing owes itself. As far as I know there have only been two incidents involving physical violence associated with this movement, and each of the victims were opposing Walker. A man in Germantown (north of Milwaukee) gathering recall signatures against Sen. Alberta Darling in front of a golf course was punched in the stomach. (This man, strangely enough, shares a surname with me but appears unrelated... I tracked him down on Facebook and we've slowly but surely been having a dialogue.) The other incident was the one at the capitol this week, where former Sen. Zien and his goons disrupted the daily Solidarity Sing-A-Long and punched one of the singers in the face. There have been situations which took place but fell short of physical violence, too... and those mostly happened in the earlier parts in February/March. I can't say I heard much in the way of nonviolent incidents since Dave Name-Sharer got punched in the stomach collecting signatures. It's not some varying or alternating, but seems to me more of a gradual escalation. Given that things are only going to heat up as recall elections approach, I can sadly imagine that trend continuing.
Now, I am an intern with the Democratic Party of Wisconsin. I do so in a field office focused exclusively on the upcoming recall elections, located about a half-mile from the capitol. There are days our office makes more phone calls than our sister offices around the state combined. We make no secret who we are, what we're doing or where we are. If I were armed, angry, and possibly unbalanced enough to disregard others' right to life... well, ideally, I wouldn't want to think about what would/could happen in that situation. The way the office is set up, it would be quite easy to get between the majority of people in there and the way to either exit. Could get ugly. Now, I'm not exactly itching to be packing heat around the office - if it's even allowed. But these thoughts and other matters of personal protection are on my mind.
I saw an earlier reply on this subject using the word "sabotage" to describe what was being discussed when we talked about filling firearm safety courses. I disagree with that assessment. We were not talking about any plan to disrupt or derail such courses - our concealed carry bill doesn't even mandate taking them - but we were talking about going in there and taking the classes as any citizen would. I'm confident the content of this and a couple of my other recent posts shows that I'm not just interested in this subject as a Trojan horse to make a political point. My curiosity is legitimate. What I'm wondering is when/whether it needs to go beyond just plain curiosity.
Like I said at the beginning of this, we've got about nine guns for every ten citizens in America... and it seems I'm that tenth guy who's not armed.
I hate to have to keep discussing violence and potential violence in this thread, but it decided to rear its ugly head once again since the writing of my last post.
Breaking story from the Wisconsin Supreme Court that began trickling out yesterday: On June 13th, the eve of the announcement of the court's 4-3 decision overturning the injunction of the budget repair bill & thus allowing it to take effect, an argument between Wisconsin Supreme Court justices got physical. There are anonymous sources reporting to the media; the judicial oversight agency watching these things will neither confirm nor deny a pending investigation; all seven Wisconsin Supreme Court justices and Capitol Police Chief Tubbs have refused to publicly comment on the incident. All the accounts I've read thus far agree on this much: Six of the seven justices were in the office of Justice Ann Walsh Bradley, discussing the decision which had been reached. David Prosser, who narrowly won reelection in the suspect-yet-never-investigated April vote, made a disparaging remark about Chief Justice Shirley Abrahamson. (Prosser - rightfully - took heat during the campaign for referring to Abrahamson as "a total bi.tch" in vowing to "destroy" her.) At this point, Justice Bradley asked Prosser to leave her office. He did not.
At this point, it seems one eyewitness account varies from others: In what I've read, there is a lone account saying at this point Justice Bradley charged Prosser with fists raised. Other accounts given by sources did not seem to include this allegation.
Back to all accounts agreeing again: David Prosser put both his hands around Justice Bradley's neck.
I'm sorry, but the way I see it: even if someone is charging at you, which has not been proven, if you have time to go for their neck you most likely have time to simply step out of the way.
With a few exceptions (mostly sports/entertainment) I cannot think of a single workplace where an employee can lay hands on another employee in that manner and not be fired.
Here's where it gets a bit tricky: As I understand things, and I could be wrong here, how Prosser is replaced varies by when it would happen. If Prosser were to resign in the near future because of this, Walker would get to appoint someone different to fullfill the remaining 9.5+ years of his current term. If Prosser were to stay in office, he would not be eligible for a recall until April 5th, 2012. He would not be eligible for recall concurrent to Scott Walker and state senators elected in the November 2010 election along with him, that would have to be a separate effort.
I personally advocate the latter course of action, as much as I'd hate to have him around another ten months.
Would love to go on, but I'm probably late for work because of this post.
Of all the stuff I posted, including a bunch of potential rants I've put thought into, y'all wanted to talk about guns. It's one of those moments that makes me realize I'm a damn Yankee on a southern-dominated board. Just sayin'.
That being said, I don't think I've shared any photos with this thread in a while... and I think the thread could use a change in direction. Those will be up shortly.
Early June saw the state legislature debating the state budget (as opposed to Walker's budget repair bill which sparked the initial protests.) With the renewed debate came the return of Walkerville, the protest tent city. Walkerville's initial incarnation happened on the grounds during the occupation of the capitol when the building itself was closed to the public with protesters inside. The capitol grounds are under Department of Administration jurisdiction, who most certainly would not let us sleep on the capitol grounds as we were in February & March when things were not as under control. This time, Walkerville had to be done with a permit through the city of Madison. The permit went beyond a week, and Walkerville remained as long as the debate was ongoing. Each day of Walkerville redux highlighted a particular area of society that would be affected by the austerity measures in the budget. I was only able to spend one night there, on Tuesday June 7th.
Sign at the Walkerville information booth.
Message boards for citizens to opine for all to view.
Lady Forward oversees another rally.
This is Joanne, one of the many new friends I've made since this all started. She wound up doing laps around the capitol square waving that state flag until 3am.
I am an intern in a Democratic Party of Wisconsin field office, and we have lots of volunteers coming in and out all day long. I could go on about the various people I've met coming in and out of the office, and perhaps I should another time... but there's a particular demographic I want to focus on for now.
When people bring their children in during their volunteer shifts, we give the kids something to do as well. We have plenty of paper, writing materials, and wall space, so when we have kids in the office they make signs while their parent does phone banking or whatever. I always enjoy these signs for perspective on how the younger generation perceives all of what is going on.
Here are some of those signs.
The fact that Fox News portrayed these protests as taking place with palm trees in the background is not forgotten by the children.
Yet another palm tree sign here, although I couldn't move the monitor far enough aside for a good shot.
This picture is kind of crappy and I should probably retry capturing it. The sign says "Just say no to Walker." The character on the left, presumably a grownup, is looking at a box that says "Fox News" on it. The character on the right, presumably a child and possibly representing the artist, has a circle-slash/No Walker sign over his head. He's pointing a remote control at the TV and his speech balloon says "That's my opinion."
Arguably my favorite: "I am so mad I do not know what to write." Madison's Medusa is obviously the work of an adult.
A word of explanation: #WeeUnion is an offshoot of the #WIunion Twitter hashtag, in which parent protesters arrange playdates amongst their children.
Here's another one of the children's signs which is arguably my favorite. The text might show up a bit small, so I'll repeat it. "Scott Walker's Got to Go!" by Henry, age 4. So much of this doesn't make sense to me, but there's one part I love - the part which has an explanation in adult (parental?) handwriting: The arrow is pointing out "Angry newt, angry because Scott Walker is taking away his rights."
"Walker is a Weasel" "Hey hey, ho ho, Scott Walker has got to go" Henry's angry newt "I love Fab 14" Two or three unintelligible signs
This sign was only up for a day, probably until the powers that be in the office deemed it inappropriate and/or offensive. I thought it was awesome.
I just don't talk about my views on guns/gun control. I'm not extremely educated on the subject, but I'd rather have all guns illegal than our current system. I think.
Post by pondo ROCKS on Jun 29, 2011 14:31:43 GMT -5
KDogg...I applaud your effort for all that you do. Scott Walker and the cronies like him NEED to understand that they are nOT representing the peoples BEST interests. The Pondo Army (which you are more than welcome to be a member of) salutes you.
Providing an outlet and a voice for music lovers to unite under the common theme of music for all. Join The Pondo Army to show your allegiance to musical freedom! Fighting for no censorship of the arts & music education in schools, The Pondo Army will triumph! The Pondo Army Movement
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KDogg...I applaud your effort for all that you do. Scott Walker and the cronies like him NEED to understand that they are nOT representing the peoples BEST interests. The Pondo Army (which you are more than welcome to be a member of) salutes you.
Amen to this. I could go long on getting into this. Instead, I'm going to quote/link the Wikipedia page's abstract definition on the topic before I move on.
The Wisconsin Idea is the political philosophy developed in the American state of Wisconsin that fosters public universities' contributions to the state: "to the government in the forms of serving in office, offering advice about public policy, providing information and exercising technical skill, and to the citizens in the forms of doing research directed at solving problems that are important to the state and conducting outreach activities." A second facet of the philosophy is the effort "to ensure well-constructed legislation aimed at benefitting the greatest number of people." During the Progressive Era, proponents of the Wisconsin Idea saw the state as "the laboratory for democracy", resulting in legislation that served as a model for other states and the federal government.
Oh, how times have changed. Fortunately, that same Progressive Era - led by Wisconsin's own "Fighting Bob" LaFollette - gave us citizens the right to recall our elected officials for failing to do just that. The bastards have to deal with us whether they like it or not.
This is a graphical representation of the nine recall elections I'm working on this summer in the Taking Back Wisconsin office. If it looks confusing... believe me, it can be. The Republicans in this state like it this way. I'll try to simplify it. There are six districts where Republican senators are facing recall; these six have the word "Recall" across their picture. There are also three districts where Democratic senators are facing recall; these three are the only one pictured with their district (their opponents' names & faces are cleverly missing - this was clearly designed with partisan purposes in mind rather than full disclosure.)
I'll get to them in chronological order by date of general election. Altogether, there are votes on July 12th, July 19th, August 9th and August 16th.
July 12th is the date for the six Democratic primaries, in which Republicans are running as Democrats to extend the process for their fellow Republicans.
July 19th is the first general election. Longtime Democratic Sen. Dave Hansen, who represents parts of Green Bay and the surrounding area and serves as the assistant senate minority leader, faces recall. In the past, he has been a teacher, an usher at Lambeau Field, and at one point a garbage man. It's definitely gives you a good egalitarian warm and fuzzy feeling, making phone calls on behalf of a senator and having people say "yeah, he used to be my garbageman..." This race was originally intended to include a Republican primary, but the Republican establishment's preferred candidate failed to turn in sufficient nomination papers to get on the ballot. (Sitting Assembly representative was two votes shy of making the ballot - and he & his wife did not sign his nomination papers ) There was only one candidate who met the requirements, so this particular race goes directly to the general election. His opponent is a GOP activist named David VanderLeest, who spearheaded the effort to gather the signatures needed to trigger his recall. Here is an actual recent press release from VanderLeest, just to demonstrate the intellectual powerhouse we're up against here: VanderLeest Campaign: Response to Mike Tate's false accusations 6/30/2011
Statement from David VanderLeest: I am an advocate for truth in Brown County. I have sued public officials for curruption and abuse of power, as an attempt to protect the hard working taxpayers, of NE WI. (see federal court case number 07-c-318) I am inocent of every criminal case ever brought against me. Every accusation ever brought fourth, happened because my then wife had a drinking problem, and made false accusations that she later recanted. These cases were intensified at the hand of currupt officials, who viewed me as a political threat, and wanted to silence, suppress, and minimize me, like Democratic Party of Wisconsin Chairman Mike Tate tryed to do today. Crooked public officals like this do not deserve the public trust. They fear my ability to polarize the public and expose true corruption that takes place at the hand of public officials who have different political views then me. People like this have no morals, and only care about winning, at any and all cost. These officials do not care who they hurt in the process, they are simply interested in protecting their place at the public trough. Hurting David VanderLeest and his seven year old son James, are just ways of getting currupt official the means they desire. I'll fill in where VanderLeest sidesteps: [urhttp://bloggingblue.com/2011/06/14/david-vanderleest-now-with-police-reports/]he's been the inspiration for a handful of domestic violence police calls[/url]. This being the first decided race of all the recall elections, we know that this is not only going to be the focus of a media frenzy however it turns out but furthermore define momentum going into the other recall elections. We're actually somewhat pleased to begin this stretch by defending a lone seat against a relatively weak opponent.
August 9th will be the biggest day in all of this. There will be six Republican senators facing recall on this day. Assuming the six legitimate Democratic candidates win their primaries, and they should, these recall general elections will be (by district): 2nd: Sen. Robert Cowles vs. Nancy Nusbaum 8th: Sen. Alberta Darling vs. Rep. Sandy Pasch 10th: Sen. Sheila Harsdorf vs. Shelly Moore 14th: Sen. Luther Olsen vs. Rep. Fred Clark 18th: Sen. Randy Hopper vs. Jess King 32nd: Sen. Dan Kapanke vs. Rep. Jennifer Shilling Before I go into a bit more detail on the individual races, I want to point out one thing: six Republicans have been recalled, and five of our six Democratic challengers will be women. I think that's awesome.
2nd: Sen. Robert Cowles vs. Nancy Nusbaum I have to admit that I'm not terribly familiar with the 2nd District race. I am in the Madison office in the south-central part of the state, and aside from offices in the recall districts, Democratic Party of Wisconsin offices concentrate on helping with races in closer geographic proximity. I do know that our candidate Nancy Nusbaum is a former mayor and county executive, and earned a lot of respect for her handling of contentious budget/deficit issues during her time as county executive.
8th: Sen. Alberta Darling vs. Rep. Sandy Pasch The 8th senate district is north of Milwaukee, an area rather friendly to Republicans as far as senate districts go. This is the district where a man collecting recall signatures was physically assaulted, after all. Quite frankly, I'm surprised there were even enough signatures to recall Darling to begin with considering the political landscape in that part of the state. Darling is a co-chair of the legislature's Joint Finance Committee, which means she had a big part of the legislature's role in rushing through so much of Walker's agenda. Hers is one of the scalps we would most like to collect in this wave of recalls, but nobody is holding their breath waiting on it for it to happen. That's a shame, because our candidate Rep. Sandy Pasch - currently serving her second term in the Assembly - seems like an amazing woman and candidate. Before being elected, she was both a nurse and assistant professor of nursing, holding master's degrees in both psychiatric nursing and bioethics. All that, and she still had time to raise three kids.
10th: Sen. Sheila Harsdorf vs. Shelly Moore The 10th district is in a part of the state we call Minnesconsin, bordering our neighboring state along the Mississippi. Incumbent Sen. Harsdorf has been a Republican legislator for over twenty years now, largely due to the fact that she never faced such a strong challenge in regular elections. Her Democratic challenger is Shelly Moore, a National Board certified teacher and board member of a domestic/sexual violence center in the region. If one is to be pragmatic in assuming Sen. Darling retains her seat, this is the reddest district that is in play. I somehow doubt that it's coincidence that the Walker administration, who has already turned down hundreds of millions in federal transportation funds, somehow found a way to secure federal funding for a long-anticipated bridge across the Mississippi just as these recalls started heating up. It seems to have given Harsdorf a bit of a bump in the polls. As it stands (and I won't be quoting any polls I haven't heard in the past week here) Harsdorf has a slim edge over Moore, leading 50-45. Those polls concluded just as Moore's campaign first hit the airwaves, and we have reason to suspect that Harsdorf's five-point lead may diminish in the weeks to come.
14th: Sen. Luther Olsen vs. Rep. Fred Clark Sen. Olsen initially called Walker's controversial collective bargaining provisions "pretty radical," but voted for them anyway. It seems he has cast a few votes which personally benefited his businesses and lined his own pockets. In this political environment, that might not play so well, but Olsen-Clark is still a very competitive race - in large part due to Clark (the "token man" amongst the Democratic challengers) himself. Fred Clark is a second-term Assembly representative in the Portage/Baraboo area not too far north of Madison. As a businessman, he is a forestry contractor. Prior to becoming a member of the Assembly, Clark had been appointed by governors of both parties to state boards on the environment and tourism. Things would normally be looking better for him than they currently are. There was an incident. Clark was making a phone call to a voter, much like the calls myself and everyone else around the office make on a daily basis, and had himself a bit of a stupid moment. He made a phone call, the answering machine picked up shortly before the woman with whom he spoke picked up. She rudely and abruptly ended the conversation, replying with "well, isn't that a crime?" when he introduced himself and why he was calling. She hung up on him, and in a moment of frustration - one that he thought was private - he turned to a volunteer (staffer?) nearby and said "I feel like calling her back and smacking her around." The woman's answering machine was still recording. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know why this just might be a problem for his campaign.
18th: Sen. Randy Hopper vs. Jess King This is in the Oshkosh & Fond du Lac area of the state; I've mentioned this race before. At one point after the bill rescinding collective bargaining rights was introduced, a group of protesters were outside the Hopper residence. Mrs. Hopper came out to speak to them... and informed them that Sen. Hopper had no longer lived there. He instead, she alleged, had moved to Madison to live with a 20something staffer with whom he was having an affair. Probably didn't help his campaign much. Even his wife signed his recall petition. Hopper claims he has rented another residence in the district, the address of which he refuses to share - if it even exists. It will be curious to see where his listed address is come Election Day. It probably doesn't help that he also has a relatively high number of public sector employees in his district. Rumor has it he turned white as a ghost when he saw Walker's bill... but he still voted for it. This is what hypocrisy looks like: here he is rocking an AFSCME shirt with some prison guards. (Fun fact: AFSCME was born in Madison.) Hopper's opponent is Oshkosh deputy mayor Jess King, whom I find to be arguably the most impressive candidate we're running - it's a tough call for me with Rep. Pasch in the mix. This race is actually a rematch of the 2008 election (more on that soon.) Jess King was born to disabled parents, becoming a ward of the state while in high school when they were no longer able to care for her. She earned scholarships to put herself through college, ultimately graduating from law school elsewhere. She later returned to the district to care for her parents. She opened up a practice assisting families struggling with bankruptcy and was an adjunct professor of law at UW-Oshkosh. In the 2008 state senate race, King lost to Hopper by 163 votes. Both her parents died in the month leading up to that election, one of them passing away within a week of that election. Without such a hard-hitting personal loss at the 11th hour, it's arguable that King could be this district's senator already. She still has a good chance: the recent poll shows she leads Hopper, 50-47. I feel particularly attached to this race. In my Walkerville Redux pics, there was a shot of my new friend Joanne. She lives in Oshkosh and has been nothing short of a recall rockstar with her volunteering; I hear about the details of that campaign more than others and have an invite to crash whenever I can come up and volunteer with that sister office. On the subject of sisters, my own younger sister attends UW-Oshkosh and gets to vote in this recall. I am so damn jealous.
32nd: Sen. Dan Kapanke vs. Rep. Jennifer Shilling This race is in the La Crosse area, which is on the Mississippi just across from southern Minnesota. I've written a lot thus far, and I have more to go after this, so I'll keep this one short and sweet. Sen. Kapanke won election to his current term with the narrowest margin of any sitting state senator. Rep. Shilling leads Kapanke in the polls, 56-42. This is the one race which is definitely a lock for us to flip.
August 16th finds Democratic senators Jim Holperin (from the Northwoods northwest of Green Bay) and Bob Wirch (from Kenosha in the far southeast corner of the state) defending their seats against Republican challengers to be determined. Both of those primaries seem to be battles between mainstream Republicans and Tea Party activists. Holperin has a long history of involvement with environmental and tourism issues in the state before becoming a legislator. He is, thus far, the only person I'm discussing in this post whom I've actually met. I gotta admit, I got a big goofy grin on my face when his official Twitter account included me in a shout-out to "talented tweeps." Wirch was a third-generation factory worker before being elected to public office, employed in the same factory his father and grandfather worked in. Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller was just telling us all the other day that Wirch is always the member of the caucus who interrupts a conversation to ask how the subject at hand will affect the regular working man. I suspect that question doesn't get asked too much on the other side of the aisle...
That's my brief roundup on the races and candidates I'm working for.
As far as the political calculus is concerned: the Wisconsin State Senate is presently split 19-14 in favor of Republicans. Overall, we need a +3 result in these recalls to flip the state senate. We definitely have Shilling, most likely have King, and will need just one more to retake control of the Wisconsin Senate. Assuming our three Democrats defend their seats, we need to win just one more of the other four races... and we consider three of those four to be still in play. It's going to be one hell of a six weeks between now and then, but well worth the effort.
I am kicking around the idea of creating a post-recall event. Basically, I want people to meet at the capitol on August 10th, which would be the day after the six Republican senators face recall. I want to do the neighborly/"Midwest nice" thing and have people bring in cardboard boxes to assist the ousted senators accelerate their moving-out process. Ideally, these boxes will come with (again, Midwest nice) notes inside them explaining why the people who brought them worked to end their careers. Plus one special box for someone who isn't facing recall - yet - left in the vicinity of the governor's office with a note that says "Scotty, we're coming for you!"
That is, after all, the next step in the right direction...
Thanks fer keepin' us all in the loop, kdogg! Looks like y'all fightin' fer truth and justice will have a busy few weeks ahead of you, but keep your heads up! The rest of us around the country support you.
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson
"I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - Thomas Jefferson
"Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or ever will do good." - John Adams
"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. The banking powers are more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. They denounce as public enemies all who question their methods or throw light upon their crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe." - Abraham Lincoln
"We may congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its end. It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood … It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless." - Abraham Lincoln
"As we view the achievements of aggregated capital, we discover the existence of trusts, combinations, and monopolies, while the citizen is struggling far in the rear, or is trampled beneath an iron heel. Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people’s masters." - Grover Cleveland
"The great corporations which we have grown to speak of rather loosely as trusts are the creatures of the State, and the State not only has the right to control them, but it is duty bound to control them wherever the need of such control is shown." - Theodore Roosevelt
"Our aim is not to do away with corporations; on the contrary, these big aggregations are an inevitable development of modern industrialism, and the effort to destroy them would be futile unless accomplished in ways that would work the utmost mischief to the entire body politic. We can do nothing of good in the way of regulating and supervising these corporations until we fix clearly in our minds that we are not attacking the corporations, but endeavoring to do away with any evil in them. We are not hostile to them; we are merely determined that they shall be so handled as to serve the public good. We draw the line against misconduct, not against wealth." - Theodore Roosevelt
"We wish to control big business so as to secure among other things good wages for the wage-workers and reasonable prices for the consumers. Wherever in any business the prosperity of the businessman is obtained by lowering the wages of his workmen and charging an excessive price to the consumers we wish to interfere and stop such practices. We will not submit to that kind of prosperity any more than we will submit to prosperity obtained by swindling investors or getting unfair advantages over business rivals." - Theodore Roosevelt
I feel remiss not including some random updates after a couple other lengthy posts.
Various murmurings I hear suggest Russ Feingold will run for governor rather than U.S. senator. I think I mentioned a while back that at the state convention, he said about 75-80% of the people he talked to wanted him to run for governor. He's also said that he doesn't really want to go back to Washington, and that he enjoys being able to spend his time in his home state. Signs seem to be pointing towards Russ Feingold running for governor in a recall election against Walker. The latest polls show "Recall Walker" leading 50-47 (keep in mind only 1/4 as many who voted last November have to sign) with Feingold crushing Walker in a hypothetical matchup, 52-42.
There was a garden party at the governor's mansion yesterday. As I understand it, Walker prefers to use his primary residence in the Milwaukee suburbs area and commute and does not actually inhabit the governor's mansion. Anyway, in keeping with the theme that this guy can't go anywhere without being hounded, protesters organized a small but dedicated flotilla in public waters near the lakeside governor's mansion with a more sizable number gathering to greet their guests at the shuttle pickup point.
In a related note, Rep. Paul Ryan - the third-most-unpopular Republican in the nation, according to another recent poll - backed out of his appearance in his hometown Kenosha's 4th of July parade today. There had been an email going out to Republicans in his district which seemed kind of desperately seek people to join him which wound up being mocked after it became public, but I'm not sure whether lack of interest was his motivating factor for canceling his appearance.
One of my volunteers on Wednesday was Ginger, who's in her 70s. She was one of the gym teachers in my school district, but I don't think I actually had her for anything but the dance units what with gender breakdowns in classes. I remembered her, though, and mentioned it to her before I gave her the phone bank training. She didn't remember me, but hey... gym class wasn't exactly my forte. She kind of grumbled just to be reminded of the heavily-Republican district in which she used to work, so I didn't go too far into the subject. It gave me this cool "full circle" feeling to be showing a former teacher how to be doing things. She gave me this: I haven't taken it off yet; I won't until we actually do it.
The heart balloon is no longer up in the rotunda. It ceased being up there this past Wednesday or Thursday. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but it sounds like it had something to do with moisture gathering on the paintings up there and air vents being opened... once the air vents were opened, the balloon lowered to reachable levels. There, as I understand it, a capitol staffer took possession of it for safekeeping and contacted the Wisconsin Historical Society. I don't know if there has officially been a donation yet, as there has not yet been a comment from the historical society. I know that the historical society has periodic meetings to determine whether/how to accept donations from talking to them about (eventually) donating my Forward cheesehead when its job is done. It is expected that the heart balloon will make its way to the Wisconsin Historical Museum on the capitol square, where we can all visit it in a more up close and personal fashion. Four and a half months was a very good run for a balloon whose expected lifespan usually is measured in days.
I have arranged a place to stay in Green Bay for the Get Out the Vote effort in the initial recall election, where Democratic Sen. Dave Hansen is defending his seat against recall. It doesn't get much more "on the front lines" than that.
A Wisconsin expatriate active on our Twitter hashtag (#WIunion) is putting together a museum exhibit. Signs I made are going on display as part of a traveling exhibit about our protests. These signs are going on display in various venues in California this month, going up to Alaska next month, and doing another California tour in September before being donated to the Labor Archives at San Francisco State University when the exhibit is done touring. I never expected that I'd have "works" of any sort hanging in a museum. I made sure to take a parting shot of the signs before sending them off. Update: I had handed off my signs to the Jenni, who puts together the monthly Democracy Addicts meetup at our last meeting, for mailing along with others' signs. I hadn't talked to the Joanie putting together the exhibit myself until I sent her a message about my signs earlier tonight. I just got a response from her out in California: "Kevin, that was YOU in the Forward Cheesehead?!? I may have photos of you. Let me look..." ;D
A few other random updates from abroad: A government shutdown has been in effect since midnight Thursday. It sounds like the sticking point in negotiations was taxation of the ~7700 highest earners in the state - the Democratic governor wanted to increase their taxes & the Republicans who control their state legislature will not consider it. There have been just a handful of government shutdowns across the country in the past decade, most of them lasting just a few hours. I know one of these states is Tennessee; if any of you can give me some details on that I would love to hear it.
Ohio citizens are challenging Senate Bill 5, Gov. Kasich's measure similar to Walker's in Wisconsin. In that state, citizens can gather signatures to put a bill up for a public referendum before enactment in lieu of legislative business as usual. Opponents needed to gather 231K signatures in order to initiate a referendum against SB5. They submitted nearly 1.3 million signatures, one million more than they needed, delivered on an 18-wheeler with a parade of six thousand people.
In the UK, public sector workers facing similar circumstances are on general strike number about 750K participants. Greece is also dealing with a similar strike as well as civil unrest to go with it. I've heard interviews with thickly-accented Scottish labor activists citing solidarity with my state, and I've seen signs in Greece expressing a similar sentiment. I love the solidarity, I just wish it could have come under more preferable circumstances. I would simply love to know what their citizens are onto that most American citizens aren't.
I showed up late to the Democracy Addicts meet/drink-up, so I wasn't entirely sure what was going on in the corner of the patio with the laptop. I thought Jenni, who is basically the leader of the group, was interviewing people. Instead, she was just asking people to explain why we are still out there involved with the movement. I was on my 3rd or 4th 10%er doppelbock on an empty stomach at the time. I had a lot more of a buzz than I had a game plan when it came time for me, the final arrival, to get drafted to do one. First link is the final collaborative video, and the second link appears to be to just my raw footage. I have yet to watch either of these, for the record. I just have the feeling that it's another one of those details I'll let slip through the cracks if I don't mention it right away.
host.madison.com/ct/news/local/govt-and-politics/capitol-report/article_22927d8e-a1c5-11e0-9cd2-001cc4c03286.html I am linking this article because: 1. Joanne, whom I know from our #WIunion twitter tag, Democracy Addicts and Walkerville, made the cover; I plan on going up to do some field work on that particular campaign. 2. Also quoted are Nick & Zach, the two guys in charge of my office. 3. There's a snapshot in there of another of my volunteer leads team members, Joannie, rocking the phones in the front room of the office.
I also think I neglected to link this article that ran about six weeks ago in The Isthmus, Madison's local alternative weekly newspaper: www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=33473 Entitled "The New Activists," the article contains some profiles of some prominent figures in our nascent movement, about half of which I've had the fortune to interact with.
As far as updates go: There's some more shenanigans in the pipeline, in which the Republicans are trying to call an extraordinary session for redistricting the state - conveniently cutting Democratic challengers out of the relevant districts mere days before the recall elections. It's too developing of a story, and I am too tired in need of a nap between jobs, to elaborate on this at the moment.
Post by chicagorooer on Jul 10, 2011 19:14:14 GMT -5
Don't be fooled. This whole scott walker is going down is simply garbage. The state is broke and Walker has to finally put a nail in the coffin which is the corrupt and greedy labor unions. Finally we get a leader in office who really wants to get to the root of the problem instead of simply raising taxes across the board that hurts business.
It's pathetic that the labor unions are turning this into some sort of class warfare. The unions leaders the BA'S ECT by a wide margin are still employed. They still have their nice cars and fancy union halls all on the backs of the people they are supose to represent.
It's the greedy unions that make it impossible to do business. Inflated pay and over generous healthcare and pensions have crippled the state. People in the private sector dont even come close to these cadillac benefit packages many union members have
It's a very easy test. Tell the current union leaders you want them out. You as laborers ect will still mobolize and have a union just not with the current crop of greedy and selfish union leaders. You would see at that point it has nothing to do with saving the middle class or protection worker rights it will have everything to do with the union leaders trying to save their own jobs, and their fat cat salaries.
The union leaders dont give a shit about the business or the people they represent. They simply want to keep their power base in play along with the all the $$$ they have enjoyed. So kick the current leaders out ALL OF THEM and start over with a union that really does want to be the voice of the people and not simply looking after their own ass..
Thanks scott walker for finally having the guts to stand up to the bully unions. We'll see how this all plays out. However asking people in wisconsin to boycott their homegrown brewery isn't going to happen. I just popped open a cold shanty
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson
"I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - Thomas Jefferson
When we first created this country. Our nation's conscience sided with Jefferson over Alexander Hamilton's Federalist party because it favored farmers and common workers over industrialists and bankers. It is a shame that our nation is starting to look more like Hamilton's vision. Back then, a national bank was unconstitutional. Now after the financial collapse of 2008. The top ten banks in the nation (Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan and Chase, among others) now own 77% of all national banks. We are slowly letting our dollar being the ruling paper in this land and not the Consitution.
We should be Aaron Burr and shoot motherfucking Hamilton in the ass.
The state is broke and Walker has to finally put a nail in the coffin which is the corrupt and greedy labor unions. Finally we get a leader in office who really wants to get to the root of the problem instead of simply raising taxes across the board that hurts business.
If you've read this thread, perhaps you missed the part where I said there are areas (such as financial concessions) where I do not agree with the unions. That being said, they do have their rights to negotiate those unfair deals - and I will defend that or any other right which is being taken away from people. This country was built on an expansive view of rights, not a restrictive one. I hear so many complaints about the contracts which were made, but I rarely hear a word of criticism levied at the public officials and administrators who negotiate those deals with the unions. I think the reason you and so many of your ilk neglect to mention this is because it's not on your talking points list.
It's pathetic that the labor unions are turning this into some sort of class warfare. The unions leaders the BA'S ECT by a wide margin are still employed. They still have their nice cars and fancy union halls all on the backs of the people they are supose to represent.
It's the greedy unions that make it impossible to do business. Inflated pay and over generous healthcare and pensions have crippled the state. People in the private sector dont even come close to these cadillac benefit packages many union members have
You're telling me you would rather have a union leader's compensation and benefits than a corporate executive's compensation and benefits, then? I highly doubt that. Saying that inequality exists is not the act of class warfare; the policies and actions which create that inequality are the true class warfare. If being poor and driving a lesser car are your measures for measuring whether one is right, well... I'm probably more right than you. As such, you should probably defer to me... but only if you think your own logic has a solid foundation.
It's a very easy test. Tell the current union leaders you want them out. You as laborers ect will still mobolize and have a union just not with the current crop of greedy and selfish union leaders. You would see at that point it has nothing to do with saving the middle class or protection worker rights it will have everything to do with the union leaders trying to save their own jobs, and their fat cat salaries.
You must have missed the part where the unions agreed to all the financial concessions, but Walker still sought to rescind their rights. Your proposal alters the leadership of unions, but you make no recommendations for altering the rights of unions to collectively bargain. Even when you argue against the unions with your own proposal, you don't include the measure which made Walker's budget repair bill such a controversial piece of legislation. Just sayin'.
The union leaders dont give a Leno about the business or the people they represent. They simply want to keep their power base in play along with the all the $$$ they have enjoyed. So kick the current leaders out ALL OF THEM and start over with a union that really does want to be the voice of the people and not simply looking after their own ass..
So, may I ask why you're in favor of kicking out all the union leaders out and starting fresh... but I'm off base for wanting to kick the political leaders out and start fresh? I'm sorry, but I was out there on that capitol. Those crowds were full of good people, from grade schoolers to grannies. They are our police, our firefighters, our teachers, our nurses, our janitors. They do a lot of oftentimes thankless jobs, jobs that are essential to our society - and they do it for less money than they would taking their skills to work in the private sector. As such, I am fine with the society they help run taking care of their needs. We need them. As far as the voice of the people goes... I seem to remember your tea party buddies being in attendance at the rallies, yet vastly outnumbered by multiples. When Americans for Prosperity sent a ten-party bus stop tour around this state, and they claimed their largest event (and they noted that it was, by far) was six hundred people. AFP bused all those supporters a couple miles away from the capitol to listen to speakers in a heated exposition center - where they were outnumbered by those in opposition; meanwhile, we Walker protesters were out on the capitol square in sixteen degrees in snow - oh, and there were a hundred thousand of us.
However asking people in wisconsin to boycott their homegrown brewery isn't going to happen. I just popped open a cold shanty
A resident of Chicago, Illinois drinking a Leinenkugel's is proof that Wisconsin won't go for it how? Looks like you ran into another one of those logic fails there. Look, I'm sorry the best you've got to offer down there is Goose Island, but you can do better for yourself than that. If you're calling a multinational company the "hometown brewery," your understanding of the situation obviously doesn't fit the reality of things. You're citing as a counterexample about the only brewer in the state which is not affected by that law. Your logic fail is noted.
Thanks scott walker for finally having the guts to stand up to the bully unions. We'll see how this all plays out.
A ten year old girl waving a pro-union sign was spit on back in February. Scott Walker joked to "David Koch" about having a baseball bat to negotiate with Democrats. The state supreme court justice who choked his female colleague was a former Republican Assemblyman. I'm assuming these are the examples of the Walker supporter civility which gives you the moral authority to call me a bully?
When the governor and his allies in Wisconsin get out of line, we get out there in the streets, we make them fight for their political lives, and they run scared. We are something like rock stars or heroes in certain circles from coast to coast - and beyond. What do you do when governors in your state get out of line, other than just sit back and wait for the inevitably corrupt successor to get out of line?
I also have a vocabulary word for the readers out there not familiar with some of the regional dialect. Technically, it's an acronym. FIB. Fucking Illinois Bastard. I can use the term with complete strangers from Minnesota to Michigan and have people know exactly what I mean. I think chicagorooer here just demonstrated a bit of why they have a reputation which precedes them so.
That makes me proud, too. That is out in La Crosse on Thursday night, in the southwestern part of the state along the Mississippi. This is in the district where the incumbent Republican senator is expected to lose his seat by double digits. This bar has decided to no longer stock MillerCoors products, and invited their customers to help them in doing so. The Fire House offered patrons a Wisconsin microbrew at the lower MillerCoors price if they were willing to dump out the MillerCoors product. As you can see, plenty of people were willing to take them up on it - enough that this was the second round of beer dumping. Check out the "Recall Walker" bumper stickers on that garbage can ;D
I feel remiss without an update. It's Get Out The Vote week at the office, both this and next week. I'm going to be quite busy, so I wanted to get some updates out now.
The primaries for the first wave of recall elections are on Tuesday. There are six primaries in which legitimate Democrats face challenges from Republican operatives/supporters posing as Democrats. I believe the voting situation in this state is different from many others in that we have open primaries. Any voter can request whichever party's ballot they like at the polls without pre-registering as a member of a political party. State Republicans, in all six races where they have an incumbent facing recall, are encouraging Republican voters to go vote for their fake Democrats in the recall primaries. Tuesday, our six Democratic challengers face the first hurdle of defeating the faux Democrats.
Republicans are trying to force through a redistricting plan before they potentially lose the state senate. Usually, due to split control of the legislature, this type of thing is done by a panel of retired judges. Not this time, not with one-party rule. The plan is still in the works, but they are manipulating things for partisan advantage on both the federal and state level. On the federal level, the party plans to redraw the 7th district to protect freshman Congressman and former Real World cast member Sean "Struggling on $174K" Duffy to force a handful of the Democratic-leaning cities out of his district. In the state senate, a minimum of two Democratic recall election challengers would be drawn out of the senate districts in which they are running. If these challengers win, they will be forced to relocate their primary residence in order to claim their seat. In one case, it was so blatant that the proposed redistricting line leaves the Democratic challenger a half-block outside the district in which she is running. In the Assembly, one of the Madison area's representatives is threatened to lose a seat when new lines will force two incumbent Democrats to oppose one another. They're trying to carve themselves a seat out of the Racine/Kenosha area. Racine & Kenosha are two cities which are also county names. The cities themselves favor Democrats, leading to two Democratic seats in the Assembly. Rather than overlap those two districts with their respective counties, the two counties have been carved in a rural vs. urban fashion - so as to turn one of those reliably Democratic seats Republican. Nothing is final with these plans yet, but it seems every change from the status quo seems to be being done to benefit Republican candidates. It is expected that this will be done via extraordinary session, which is not subject to open meetings law. (Because transparent government is so bad, you know.)
Oh! Another thing related to this redistricting has been on my mind as of late. The district for my city is expected to change - to a district which would not currently have an incumbent of either party. There will be an open Assembly seat up for grabs in 2012 in my hometown. Don't worry, I'm not crazy, I'm not going to run for the seat... I would much rather convince my honest, trustworthy and hard-working father - a better man than I - to run for the seat instead.
Only three of my five signs made it to California; the two foamboard signs were prohibitively expensive (~$70) to ship so they stayed with the woman gathering them in Madison. I think I'll just hang onto them for my inevitable Wisconsin Historical Society donation along with the cheesehead.
Arlo Guthrie is playing a fundraiser show for the We Are Wisconsin group in Madison on Thursday. I want to go, money situation permitting. I am also starting to hear some chatter about a potential fundraiser event with organizers seeking a venue which would hold 50,000 people. It would take place in October or November, not too long before the recall process against Walker can begin. I am intrigued.
Finally, Republicans in the state legislature are again trying to change the rules to their advantage. Wisconsin's presidential primary has usually been held in the month of February the past few cycles. The legislature is working on a bill which would move the state's primary to coincide with the April spring elections. So many other states trip over one another trying to get a good position in the primary calendar... and Wisconsin's is moving in the opposite direction? Of course, there's a reason: they cannot change the timing of how Walker's recall election would play out... but they can push back the date of the Wisconsin primary to coincide with Walker's recall. The side with an open field in a primary will see more turnout than the side with a decided incumbent, or so they seem to think.
With increasing frequency these days, I've wondered why we spent so much time chanting "Shame!" at people who obviously have none...
Post by chicagorooer on Jul 11, 2011 12:48:42 GMT -5
You're telling me you would rather have a union leader's compensation and benefits than a corporate executive's compensation and benefits, then? I highly doubt that. Saying that inequality exists is not the act of class warfare; the policies and actions which create that inequality are the true class warfare. If being poor and driving a lesser car are your measures for measuring whether one is right, well... I'm probably more right than you. As such, you should probably defer to me... but only if you think your own logic has a solid foundation.
no kdogg you missed the point but then again i am not surprised. The point being that the union leaders are all making a VERY VERY nice living. They ALL still have their jobs YET the people they represent are jobless? The unions care nothing about the workers or the business. They care only about their power and their $$$$. In todays job force why do u need a union anyway? If I do a better job them some slacker we get paid the same? Times are changing. Unions have nobody else to blame but themselves....Like u stated the people in the streets are good people. JUST like the tea party folks. Just regualr people sick and tired of being taxed to death. YET the main stream media and others on the right only want to discredit and call them sheep and evil. I guess it's only ok to hate and label people if your liberal when you don't agree with them. It's sad a little girl got spit on but in the end the union leaders have spit all over the people they represent. In the end your doing the bidding for rich people that want to ensure they have a seat at the table. You are trying their powerbase. that poor little girls dad probably isn't getting paid but guess that that union leader sure is...plus his nice car all paid
Post by chicagorooer on Jul 11, 2011 15:47:49 GMT -5
nah I love music and certainly bonnaroo. However after seeing 10 plus pages of this rant along with the fact this rant is ending up in different threads and NOT one person has come on board to offer an alternative viewpoint just seemed really weird. I mean really not one person challenged this thread or offered an alternative to his thinking. The title says it all. Scott walker is going down not b/c what he might be doing may actually help but he's going down so the union leaders can stay relevant.
certainly Mr forward feels comfortable expressing his viewpoint it's sad that others on this board don't simply b/c they will be slammed for not being in lock step with liberal talking points.
I dont like republicans or democrats however I do believe a healthy open discussion is needed not simply one man's rant so he can earn college credit
nah I love music and certainly bonnaroo. However after seeing 10 plus pages of this rant along with the fact this rant is ending up in different threads and NOT one person has come on board to offer an alternative viewpoint just seemed really weird. I mean really not one person challenged this thread or offered an alternative to his thinking. The title says it all. Scott walker is going down not b/c what he might be doing may actually help but he's going down so the union leaders can stay relevant.
certainly Mr forward feels comfortable expressing his viewpoint it's sad that others on this board don't simply b/c they will be slammed for not being in lock step with liberal talking points.
I dont like republicans or democrats however I do believe a healthy open discussion is needed not simply one man's rant so he can earn college credit
You did not read the thread then there have been plenty of alternative viewpoints. My point was that you had not logged on in 5 years before now, so I am sure how you see we might think you are only coming here to pick a fight. When I go back and look at your last 100 posts all have consisted of political partisan ranting. Kdogg, and I might do our fair share but you know we also talk about music and festivals and Bonnaroo on occasion.
Now go back read the entire thread (There are arguments on the first page btw) and report back before just jumping into the middle of this and accusing us of having a one sided conversation and I will be a little more likely to reply to your points. If you just want to go argue partisan politics on the internet try the comments section on the Huffington Post.
Whether or not you support kdoggs position btw, you need to give him a lot of respect for the direct action stance he has taken with involving himself in local and statewide politics. If more people of every political bent had his kind of dedication we would have a much better crop of elected politicians than the lazy self absorbed partisans we have now.
no kdogg you missed the point but then again i am not surprised. The point being that the union leaders are all making a VERY VERY nice living.
You missed the point when you refused to answer my question. Now, are you taking the union leader's compensation package or the corporate executive's compensation package? It's a bit hard to have a discussion with someone who won't answer your question. I am asking you this question again. Answer it. Honestly.
They ALL still have their jobs YET the people they represent are jobless?
Logically impossible. You have to be an employee or member of a trade to join a union. They don't come into being, and workplaces' employees don't join them, without the majority vote of those affected employees. It's democracy extended into the workplace. People out there who are jobless because the predominant economic worldview under which this country has been operating under for my entire lifetime has been a complete and utter failure.
The unions care nothing about the workers or the business. They care only about their power and their $$$$.
The unions are made up of workers. Your logic is getting fuzzy here again. Your use of the word "business" also shows you don't fully understand the situation, as Walker's law pertains to public sector employees only. Those people do not work in businesses. If the unions truly only cared about political power, this would have happened thirty years ago when Reagan fired the air traffic controllers. If the unions only cared about money, then why were they willing to agree to Walker's financial concessions but not Walker's demands on collective bargaining rights. If eliminating collective bargaining rights is strictly a matter of money, then why did Gov. Walker - having taken an oath under penalty of perjury to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help him God - say that rescinding these rights "doesn't save any" for the state of Wisconsin when he was testifying before Congress in April. It's not about the money. It's about the rights. Even Scott Walker admits it.
In todays job force why do u need a union anyway? If I do a better job them some slacker we get paid the same? Times are changing. Unions have nobody else to blame but themselves....
You can thank the labor movement and unions of this great nation for the weekend, the eight-hour work day, child labor laws, minimum wage, maternity leave, workmen's compensation, employer-based healthcare, workplace safety standards... I could go on. The point is that unions advocate for contract provisions other than salary, and that these things - when undertaken by unions - are implemented with externalities which benefit the working class as a whole. You must have missed the part in my earlier response to you, and you probably also missed it earlier in this thread... I agree with you on some of the financial concessions. I've said it before and I'll say it again if I have to. I agree with you that there's certain provisions in contracts which create inefficiencies in more important goals. I just happen to think that these goals can be accomplished without taking away collective bargaining rights. It is the unions' right to make these contracts, yes, but it takes two to tango. The people already have elected officials, those officials' appointees and such to negotiate with unions on their behalf. Those contracts don't go into effect without the approval of someone representing the people - so I take issue with your point that it is only the unions to blame.
I guess it's only ok to hate and label people if your liberal when you don't agree with them.
I'm sorry, but you're the first one of us who used the term "bully" here. I just pointed out that the vast (if not complete) majority of incidents I've seen in the public/journalistic record describing physical altercations going on, it is coming from Walker supporters rather than opponents. If there's hate and labeling going on here, it came from your end by way of using the term first. I used your terminology. Why was it okay when it was you, but a point of contention when it's me?
Like u stated the people in the streets are good people. JUST like the tea party folks. Just regualr people sick and tired of being taxed to death. YET the main stream media and others on the right only want to discredit and call them sheep and evil.
Yet you call them greedy, power-hungry bullies? You can't have it both ways here. Believe it or not, I can agree with the tea party on certain issues - I can agree with them on some issues, mostly on the Libertarian/Authoritarian axis of the compass. Believe it or not, it seems you feel about your tea party the same way I feel about my Cheddar Revolutionaries here. Misinformation makes people just call us evil sheep (or in our case, "union thugs" and "slobs") without properly investigating the story. I think your posts in this thread the past couple days make you a good case study for that.
It's sad a little girl got spit on but in the end the union leaders have spit all over the people they represent. In the end your doing the bidding for rich people that want to ensure they have a seat at the table. You are trying their powerbase. that poor little girls dad probably isn't getting paid but guess that that union leader sure is...plus his nice car all paid
I went into this before. Unions represent unions. Taxpayers had representation at the table too. Quite frankly, I find it best that both workers and employers have a seat at the table. Why is this such an offensive concept to you? Again, I think you're flipping some of your own insecurities onto me. You advocate for denying the workers their seat at the table AND you say I'm doing the bidding of the rich? You are familiar with the "David Koch" prank call, yes? My governor will drop everything he's doing when he thinks he's getting a call from a billionaire contributor. There's no way that a prank call like that gets scheduled with the governor's office. He and his brother Charles heavily fund Republican candidates directly and through a series of organizations such as Americans for Prosperity (which sponsors/conducts tea party events,) ALEC (which drafts model legislation for politicians it's purchased nationwide to introduce in their state legislatures,) and a host of think tanks and front groups to advance their agenda.
I didn't participate in the initial Tax Day 09 tea party rallies. I was a convenience store clerk three blocks from the capitol on duty that day. I did see that there's a lot of decent people there who, as I said, I can agree with one some assessment of the problem (though I disagree on the exact remedy for the ailment.) They're not all bad people. I know what it's like to be at a rally and roll your eyes because somebody brought a Hitler sign. (For what it's worth, I saw exactly one Hitler sign throughout all the Wisconsin protests - pointing out that he too engaged in union-busting - and some multiple of that just watching people walk to the first tea party rally a few blocks away.) I just think that that energy was coopted too early on by wealthy/corporate interests. What happened at the capitol in February and March, I think that's the kind legitimate populist expression of what the corporate minds behind the tea party are/were trying to harness. I think that the tea party was undermined by the Kochs' AFP and similar interests, and I am sad to say that I think they've been molded into something of corporate America's useful idiots despite their best intentions.
I just think that that energy was coopted too early on by wealthy/corporate interests. What happened at the capitol in February and March, I think that's the kind legitimate populist expression of what the corporate minds behind the tea party are/were trying to harness. I think that the tea party was undermined by the Kochs' AFP and similar interests, and I am sad to say that I think they've been molded into something of corporate America's useful idiots despite their best intentions.
Forgive me if I misinterpreted the above section, but: The Tea Party movement was pretty much created by AFP and similar interests, it never hijacked any populist movements in development.
) There was only one candidate who met the requirements, so this particular race goes directly to the general election.
