Whether it's your first Bonnaroo or you’re a music festival veteran, we welcome you to Inforoo.
Here you'll find info about artists, rumors, camping tips, and the infamous Roo Clues. Have a look around then create an account and join in the fun. See you at Bonnaroo!!
UGK, i've heard of them. Not too familiar with their work. But they are legends in the Houston scene. Didn't they invent that chopped and screwed sound?
UGK (Underground Kingz) was a rap duo made up of Pimp C and Bun B. Bun B is still around, but Pimp C died (no joke) from a sizzurp overdose. But they were one of the first ever real southern rappers, and along with Outkast, broke open the entire Southern rap genre and took it mainstream.
I humbly submit one of the greatest rap songs, ever.
How have I not heard about this song? That was awesome. That just got added to the Outkast/Big Boi/Andre 3000 library.
Post by LoveLuckLaughter on May 26, 2011 2:02:00 GMT -5
I'm going to mix groups/duos with solo rappers, in somewhat of a particular order.
1) Tupac 2) Biggie 3) Wu-Tang 4) Public Enemy 5) Outkast 6)Run-DMC 7) Jay-Z 8) LL Cool J 9) Common 10) Eminem 10) Nas 10) Mobb Deep 10)Lil' Wayne 10) Ghostface Killah 10) Bone Thugs ("2nd home" field advantage) 10) Snoop 10) Tech N9ne (home field advantage) 10) Lupe Fiasco 10) Beastie Boys 10) The Roots 10) The Fugees 10) E-40 10) Too Short 10) NWA
Also, I can't live in the constraints of a top 10 list, sorry.
I work in the hood, and so I treat a lot of local "rappers" for various injuries (GSWs, knife wounds, Sickle Cell crisis). Anyways, I always ask the ones who are awake and alert who they think the hottest rap artist in the game is right now. The last one said "Drake". For realz.
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
I work in the hood, and so I treat a lot of local "rappers" for various injuries (GSWs, knife wounds, Sickle Cell crisis). Anyways, I always ask the ones who are awake and alert who they think the hottest rap artist in the game is right now. The last one said "Drake". For realze.
Really?! there are certain areas of dc and Baltimore one might get said gunshot or knife wound for saying that. But if some 6'10 350 lbs dude named K-Dub or some shit said Drake was his ***ga fo'real. Id have a hard time containing my laughter.
1.nas 2.gza 3.rakim 4.krs-1 5.guru 6.andre3000 7.black thought 8.talib kweli 9.common 10.jay-z/b.i.g. (i never ranked them high myself, but everyone rates them so high i guess i shouldn't leave them out of the top 10)
honorable mention: pretty much all of wu-tang- ghostface, raekwon, method man, odb, rza, inspectah deck, masta killa, killah priest. mos def, saul williams, big l, big pun, 2pac, scarface, slick rick, chuck d, q-tip, busta rhymes
1.wu-tang 2.outkast 3.black star 4.a tribe called quest 5.mobb deep 6.goodie mob 7.de la soul 8.epmd 9.nwa 10.public enemy
honorable mention: run dmc, beastie boys, geto boys, fugees, the roots, brand nubian, boot camp clik, d.i.t.c.
Post by arizonalovesyou on May 30, 2011 1:15:10 GMT -5
i love me some dr. dre, snoop dogg, atmosphere, wiz khalifa, eminem, kid cudi, salt n pepa, notorious b.i.g., 2pac, lady sovereign, cypress hill.........
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
So, if we are talking rappers and rap groups, I must post the the greatest rap song of all time, which happens to be a cappella. (which means this song is just two guy and two mics) Without further ado, The Human Beat Box and MC Ricky D.
Here's my attempt at a list, in no particular order...
1. Andre 3000 2. Tupac 3. Ludacris 4. Eminem 5. Jay-Z 6. Biggie 7. Nas 8. Kanye (Monday me if you must, but I think he's brilliant, aside from when he fucked me over big time in '08 of course) 9. Method Man 10. Tupac
Honourable mention goes to J.Cole, his Friday Night Lights mixtape has seriously got me purring these days ^_^
Has anyone in this thread ever heard of Big Daddy Kane??!! WTF. You guy can't be serious with some of these lists. Rakim is like a throw away on most of your lists, like you had to add him as an honorable mention or at the bottom of your top ten out of respect. He's AT WORST #3 of all-time but I'm sure someone with a compelling argument can argue him down to #5 (doubtful though). Plus these lists reak of post-suburban explosion and are very east coast heavy (besides the obligatory Dre, Snoop, Eminem). They are also very mainstream heavy, put I have less of an issue with that.
I love 90s east coast hip-hop, probably my favroite subgenre of any music, but even I would never dismiss the contributions of the 80s NYC and would even be more analytical with some more west coast and southern acts that came to the forefront post '88. I just can't see how you have a top ten without Kane and a top 5 without Rakim. Rakim for all accounts and purposes is still the perfect emcee, and possibly only Nas is version 2.0 but possibly not.
I am always reluctant to create my own top 10, but wow guys. Some of these lists miss the mark and then some. I don't believe I saw a Kool G Rap on anyone's list either, but I could be wrong. Obviously any list is open for criticism, so I'll give you props for attempting to compile them but I don't understand the motivation behind some of these lists.
The great thing about recorded music, you can go back and listen to it. Especially with today's technology. So if something was 'before your time", you can go back. No one uses that excuse with the Beatles when talking about rock acts, so why use it in a hip-hop ranking discussion? It's illogical.
Here's my attempt at a list, in no particular order...
3. Ludacris 8. Kanye (Monday me if you must, but I think he's brilliant, aside from when he quacked me over big time in '08 of course) 9. Method Man
Honourable mention goes to J.Cole, his Friday Night Lights mixtape has seriously got me purring these days ^_^
Are you intentionally trying to troll? Luda isn't even top 50. Kayne is really not known for emceeing, though I'll admit he is growing. This isn't a list of top producers. And Meth, well he's not even top 3 in the Wu - just most visible. Actually I put a bunch of Wu heads ahead of him, including the extremely underrated Inspecktah Deck.
Even with the groups, I have a hard time qualifying things. For instance, are the Roots technically a rap group? To me, "rap group" implies more than one rapper. They've really only got one MC, and while there are many other members, they act as production/instrumentation. I'm going to leave them off my list of groups because I don't quite know how to properly utilize them.
Correct, a hip-hop group is at least two emcees with or without a credited DJ. Thus, Gangstarr is technically a emcee and a DJ, not a group. EPMD is a group. Boot Camp Clik is a collective, not a group since it encompasses multiple groups. Then there are crews/posse that encompass multiple solo emcees like the Juice Crew. This is where the term posse cut comes from. So 'Symphony' is technically a posse cut, but 'Protect Ya Neck' or 'Triumph' technically is not (since it's cut by one group despite multiple emcees going at it). However, it's not a big deal when the term is used for a heavy Wu cut with 5-9 emcees spitting.
Post by RadioSpirit on Jun 19, 2011 14:59:58 GMT -5
If you want to criticize you must create your own! I was about to start arguing with some people, but then I tried to put together my own list and realized how hard it actually was and decided that until I made my own Top-10, I wouldn't be the guy that shoots down everyone else's
If you want to criticize you must create your own! I was about to start arguing with some people, but then I tried to put together my own list and realized how hard it actually was and decided that until I made my own Top-10, I wouldn't be the guy that shoots down everyone else's
There's no real criteria. Set it and I will attempt. Are we eliminating 80s emcees besides Rakim? Are we counting groups or not (LOL)? Are we choosing personal favorites instead of "best" (as displayed by someone choosing Ludacris)? Give me a focused criteria and I will put together a top 10.
Post by RadioSpirit on Jun 19, 2011 23:52:28 GMT -5
Yeah, that was my other problem haha. I think they're saying that it has to be based soley on individual rapping skills/quality as an emcee. So that would obviously exclude groups, it would have to be a single person. But nobody said anything about time periods. In fact, I think the exact critera was "All Time" Greatest. So, Rakim, KRS-One, Chuck D, Big Daddy Kane, etc. Anyone from any era.
I think that's why underground rap stays undeground, they focus on lyrics. Not beats. IMO
???
El-P Necro Stoupe Dan the Automator Madlib J Dilla (RIP) The Supervillain RJD2 The Alchemist Prince Paul (post '97)........
just to name a select few would all disagree with that baseless statement.
RJD2, he's more of a edm DJ than a rap act. As far as the "baseless" statement, are any of these guys known outside of an insiders knowledge? These guys don't have the mainstream appeal, thus being undeground.
I love Stoupe, his work on Jedi Mind Tricks is amazing but there is a big difference in the production of his beats according to more mainstream hip-hop. He goes, along with Dan the Automator, for a more retro-style of beats. Stoupe's beats are heavily influenced by Wu and Dan the Automator beats are more of a throwback to 80's beats. Because these beats are more minimalist, it removes the beats made for dancing and accents the lyrics. Thus focusing on the lyrics.
Examples of beats over lyrics, Swizz Beatz. Alot of Timbaland's work IMO. And Did It On 'em by Nicki Minaj. While her rapping is okay, that fuckin beat is killer.
Take a look at the first page of the thread, where we talked about what the criteria was. Maybe you'll get a better sense. It veered off (this was supposed to be only MCs, not groups, but people didn't really pay attention), but that'll clue you in.
As for your point about older MCs missing the cut, I can't speak for anyone, but I can tell you why I trended away from them on my list. Frankly, while I recognize many of them for their influence on building the artform, if I'm going off of pure skill/technique/songcraft, to the point where it's pleasing to my ears, they don't make it. It's kind of like when discussing athletes - I don't dispute that Bill Russell was great, and that he reinvented the game, but if you put him on a court today against, say, Dwight Howard, he'd get absolutely destroyed. Now, if we're looking at historical legacy and/or only discussing him in terms of how dominant he was in his era, he's top-10 all time.
For me, it's the same with rappers. I don't dispute that Rakim, Kane, Kool G Rap (though you might be stretching there), etc. are all-time greats, and if you look at them in terms of their era, or their influence, they're head and shoulders above their peers. However, when I listen to them the rhymes/verses are often simple, and sound quaint compared to today.
And you're right, nobody discounts the Beatles when talking about rock music. But the Beatles came along some 10+ years into rock and roll's existence - there were plenty of acts that came before, that were great, that set the tone for them, and nobody talks about them or puts them up in a top-ten. It's the same for hip-hop: a lot of the acts from the 80's were great in their time and place, and have an undoubted influence, but the genre didn't really start growing and pushing boundaries and frankly, getting consistently excellent until the late-80's early-90's.
Rakim ushered in the new school ('86 witness) of hip-hop that changed the genre forever as the Beatles brought in the British invasion that transformed rock. Rakim's rise was 10+ after Kool Herc's first block party and a strong 7 years after rap on wax. I'm not comparing Rakim, Kane, or G Rap to the now antiquated Melle Mel or Grandmaster Caz. Rakim, Kane, and G Rap's style all hold up to today's standards. Hell, to this day, with the same style he had 20+ years ago, every time Kool G Rap guest appears on a track he usually bodies the beat and shows up the younger emcees on the track. Dismissing the aforementioned "Big 3" as merely influential is absolutely absurd. Think Wilt or MJ when you think Rakim, someone who would be dominant in ANY era. His style still hasn't been duplicated.
If you are going to allude to the whole "influential but not necessarily superior" mentality, than KRS-One is a much better candidate. His influence in political stylings, black awareness, and of course a famous beef helped push hip-hop and social issues attached to it to the mainstream. But if you go back in listen, his most notable track of all time, "The Bridge is Over" is extremely elementary and did not hold up well over time. But it changed the face of battle raps as his albums attached a face and a voice to black awareness philosophies. Combine that with the fact that his style didn't hold up over time, most notably in lackluster guest appearances with newer emcees, KRS-One is a much better candidate to be pigeon holed as merely influential, albeit to an extremely high degree. Furthermore, anyone who included KRS on their top ten, I question if they have listened to 90% of his material. If we had truth serum, I suspect they included him based on influence and prestige.
I'm not saying definitively that Kool G Rap and Big Daddy Kane are surefire top ten, but they are at worst right on the cusp and should be considered strongly. Rakim is a surefire top 3, still the perfect emcee in every way. As I stated before, possibly Nas has passed him based on versatility of changing his style 3-4 times over the course of his career without changing his core. I admit Rakim loses points for not staying considerably relevant post-2000 but his style never diminished. He just never wanted to change his overall style. But the people who use that against him cannot turn around and make excuses for the short careers of Bigge, Pac, and even Big L. Rakim's prime '86-'92 was the greatest prime in hip-hop history, in any era. And the only emcees you can put ahead of him are the ones who've added longevity to their careers. It plays into the Beatles/Stones argument based on the Stones amazingly long career. Or plenty of sports arguments pitting brilliant players with short primes versus plays who churned out a long career (Sandy Koufax vs. Nolan Ryan).
Bottom line in all this, Rakim and, to a lesser extent, Big Daddy Kane & Kool G Rap's prime hold up in any era. Where you can lump Grandmaster Caz, Melle Mel, etc as Chuck Berry-type emcees, the "Big 3" should receive Beatles-era consideration. We go back to the beatles when talking about the greatest rock acts, it is necessary to view '86-'89 in the same way. It was a good 10+ years after hip-hop's inception and some music from that era is hardly antiquated and much more than just influential.
Take a look at the first page of the thread, where we talked about what the criteria was. Maybe you'll get a better sense. It veered off (this was supposed to be only MCs, not groups, but people didn't really pay attention), but that'll clue you in.
As for your point about older MCs missing the cut, I can't speak for anyone, but I can tell you why I trended away from them on my list. Frankly, while I recognize many of them for their influence on building the artform, if I'm going off of pure skill/technique/songcraft, to the point where it's pleasing to my ears, they don't make it. It's kind of like when discussing athletes - I don't dispute that Bill Russell was great, and that he reinvented the game, but if you put him on a court today against, say, Dwight Howard, he'd get absolutely destroyed. Now, if we're looking at historical legacy and/or only discussing him in terms of how dominant he was in his era, he's top-10 all time.
For me, it's the same with rappers. I don't dispute that Rakim, Kane, Kool G Rap (though you might be stretching there), etc. are all-time greats, and if you look at them in terms of their era, or their influence, they're head and shoulders above their peers. However, when I listen to them the rhymes/verses are often simple, and sound quaint compared to today.
And you're right, nobody discounts the Beatles when talking about rock music. But the Beatles came along some 10+ years into rock and roll's existence - there were plenty of acts that came before, that were great, that set the tone for them, and nobody talks about them or puts them up in a top-ten. It's the same for hip-hop: a lot of the acts from the 80's were great in their time and place, and have an undoubted influence, but the genre didn't really start growing and pushing boundaries and frankly, getting consistently excellent until the late-80's early-90's.
Rakim ushered in the new school ('86 witness) of hip-hop that changed the genre forever as the Beatles brought in the British invasion that transformed rock. Rakim's rise was 10+ after Kool Herc's first block party and a strong 7 years after rap on wax. I'm not comparing Rakim, Kane, or G Rap to the now antiquated Melle Mel or Grandmaster Caz. Rakim, Kane, and G Rap's style all hold up to today's standards. Hell, to this day, with the same style he had 20+ years ago, every time Kool G Rap guest appears on a track he usually bodies the beat and shows up the younger emcees on the track. Dismissing the aforementioned "Big 3" as merely influential is absolutely absurd. Think Wilt or MJ when you think Rakim, someone who would be dominant in ANY era. His style still hasn't been duplicated.
If you are going to allude to the whole "influential but not necessarily superior" mentality, than KRS-One is a much better candidate. His influence in political stylings, black awareness, and of course a famous beef helped push hip-hop and social issues attached to it to the mainstream. But if you go back in listen, his most notable track of all time, "The Bridge is Over" is extremely elementary and did not hold up well over time. But it changed the face of battle raps as his albums attached a face and a voice to black awareness philosophies. Combine that with the fact that his style didn't hold up over time, most notably in lackluster guest appearances with newer emcees, KRS-One is a much better candidate to be pigeon holed as merely influential, albeit to an extremely high degree. Furthermore, anyone who included KRS on their top ten, I question if they have listened to 90% of his material. If we had truth serum, I suspect they included him based on influence and prestige.
I'm not saying definitively that Kool G Rap and Big Daddy Kane are surefire top ten, but they are at worst right on the cusp and should be considered strongly. Rakim is a surefire top 3, still the perfect emcee in every way. As I stated before, possibly Nas has passed him based on versatility of changing his style 3-4 times over the course of his career without changing his core. I admit Rakim loses points for not staying considerably relevant post-2000 but his style never diminished. He just never wanted to change his overall style. But the people who use that against him cannot turn around and make excuses for the short careers of Bigge, Pac, and even Big L. Rakim's prime '86-'92 was the greatest prime in hip-hop history, in any era. And the only emcees you can put ahead of him are the ones who've added longevity to their careers. It plays into the Beatles/Stones argument based on the Stones amazingly long career. Or plenty of sports arguments pitting brilliant players with short primes versus plays who churned out a long career (Sandy Koufax vs. Nolan Ryan).
Bottom line in all this, Rakim and, to a lesser extent, Big Daddy Kane & Kool G Rap's prime hold up in any era. Where you can lump Grandmaster Caz, Melle Mel, etc as Chuck Berry-type emcees, the "Big 3" should receive Beatles-era consideration. We go back to the beatles when talking about the greatest rock acts, it is necessary to view '86-'89 in the same way. It was a good 10+ years after hip-hop's inception and some music from that era is hardly antiquated and much more than just influential.
When I look at the scope of rap. I recognize the foundation of the 80's to rap. It's perfection of spoken word, the development of DJs. Then,you look at the grand scheme of things of how it can fit in a top ten.
Early 90's in rap brought Wu, Biggie, Nas who took a form developed in lyrics and story but then added the importance of verbal cadence (Snoop is the greatest example of this. Cuz he has no lyrical mastery but the way he flows the words is his strength) while DRE and the west coast just dropped a new beat to change everything because DRE's NWA and Chronic beats forever changed music production. Then you look at the South develop into the 2000s adding soul, funk, crunk. You realize how rap is now more than just lyrical mastery, but how it flows, and how it feeds off the backing music.
And how I think of Rakim is that he is a master of lyrics, never doubt it. But his cadence and the music interaction is just less in terms to guys like Biggie, Nas, Jay-Z on my list.
Rakim and them are not before your time. It's more like time evolved.
I don't dispute that Bill Russell was great, and that he reinvented the game, but if you put him on a court today against, say, Dwight Howard, he'd get absolutely destroyed. Now, if we're looking at historical legacy and/or only discussing him in terms of how dominant he was in his era, he's top-10 all time.
Bill Russell played against Wilt Chamberlain. I would not put too much stock in Howard, Juggs.
Take a look at the first page of the thread, where we talked about what the criteria was. Maybe you'll get a better sense. It veered off (this was supposed to be only MCs, not groups, but people didn't really pay attention), but that'll clue you in.
.
(but people didn't really pay attention). I see it as you couldn't think of ten groups, Juggs.
Last Edit: Jun 22, 2011 3:45:22 GMT -5 by Jury - Back to Top
Bill Russell played against Wilt Chamberlain. I would not put too much stock in Howard, Juggs.
I still think Howard in terms of athleticism and physicality would destroy either one in a one-on-one situation, but whatever. Insert your own sports metaphor here. I almost went with baseball, but had basketball on the brain.
I understand you were using it as a metaphor and it was effective for that. But you saying Howard over Russell, one of the greatest centers ever, struck a chord in me. I don't think Howard could beat a young Garnett let alone Russell even with the athleticism Dwight has.
(but people didn't really pay attention). I see it as you couldn't think of ten groups, Juggs.
I made a group list, didn't I? And I think that it was too ill-defined. Again, what's a group? Sprout mentioned Boot Camp Clik as not being a group, but a collective, but I don't know that I agree with that (or think that it matters). Are the Roots a group? What about GangStarr (just a DJ and an MC, but does it count for our discussion)? So whatever.
Collectives count as groups. Just because they do work outside of the group, it doesn't discount what they did as a group. If people don't think collectives are a group, then throw Wu-Tang Clan out the window.
The Roots are a band. But does that count as a group? I say Yes. I think having a sole mc and a backing band doesn't exclude it from the criteria. Now why does this differ from Gangstarr who I put Guru as a top ten rapper but not a top ten group? I have some reservations over a group that has one dj and one mc.
I admit it's hypocritical to think Roots are a group but not Gangstarr. But screw it, I'm right.
Bill Russell played against Wilt Chamberlain. I would not put too much stock in Howard, Juggs.
I still think Howard in terms of athleticism and physicality would destroy either one in a one-on-one situation, but whatever. Insert your own sports metaphor here. I almost went with baseball, but had basketball on the brain.
I'd say Russell in his prime would have a better shot at defending Howard, Chamberlain was soft.
I still think Howard in terms of athleticism and physicality would destroy either one in a one-on-one situation, but whatever. Insert your own sports metaphor here. I almost went with baseball, but had basketball on the brain.
I'd say Russell in his prime would have a better shot at defending Howard, Chamberlain was soft.
Chamberlain was soft, are you kidding me? The dude was 7-1 and had a very strong frame(just looked at wikipedia, he bulked up to 275 and then eventually 300) . I remember watching him in Conan the Destroyer and he still was stacked and that was after ten years he was retired from the league. Now was he as excellent as 100 points in a game told, no. He benefited from having a league filled with very few big men. But you put him in any era, he still would be an elite player.