Whether it's your first Bonnaroo or you’re a music festival veteran, we welcome you to Inforoo.
Here you'll find info about artists, rumors, camping tips, and the infamous Roo Clues. Have a look around then create an account and join in the fun. See you at Bonnaroo!!
Ya just like we did last time? Nothing ever changed and no one ever actually answered any of our questions. This is a far bigger deal than the last issue was. This one is not just going to go away.
Do tell sir, what are your questions? What would you like changed?
Ya just like we did last time? Nothing ever changed and no one ever actually answered any of our questions. This is a far bigger deal than the last issue was. This one is not just going to go away.
Do tell sir, what are your questions? What would you like changed?
I'll do my best to respond.
It is late and I am tired, but I will reply tomorrow. There is quite a list.
A few of my questions have been answered since last night in your response to Gardenfresh, but I have a few more and a few suggestions as well. I would like to start this off by saying I do appreciate the difficult job that the mods have. I understand that it is difficult and we have some really great people that keep this place running.
I would also like to summarize my email with Adam and his in return. Basically, I sent him an email where I stated that with the departure of Jay, the shirts, inforoonetworks, etc. it was obvious that something was happening. I wanted to know what was going on. He responded about Jay and Inforoonetworks in the same way he has in threads.
So now to the fun part:
• Please involve the common users in your decisions and changes more.
Yes I know you and the mods are in charge. As you have expressed to me multiple times if you want to do something you can do it for no reason other than you want to. I don’t disagree that you can, but should you? I also realize that every decision and change that happens here is consulted upon and talked about by all the mods and I as I have said they are all good people. That said there are a limited number of those mods who have consistently used the board as a normal posting user over the last 2 year. I understand that they are still here even if we don’t see them, but I do think not posting and interacting often changes their perspective on some issues.
The other thing I do know is that there are hundreds and maybe thousands of great people who use inforoo consistently. All of these people have unique ideas, talents, perspectives, and opinions. In my opinion these users are a resource largely untapped. Let’s use the T-shirt contest as an example. I know for a fact that there are mods who could create very nice logos for T-shirts, but instead you opened it up to the public and we discovered that we had a user among us whom blew everyone away with his designs. I think it’s the same with anything else on here. We probably have an expert on just about everything worth being an expert on hidden in some corner of this board.
If you were a little bit more open about the stuff you guys are considering doing it would it likely quell many of the rumors going around. Like I said earlier in the absence of trust, rumors prevail. It would help you users who may be experts in some of the stuff you are doing and would likely be willing to assist, people that you may not even know exist.
Even for those of us that don’t have any particularly useful skills for this board make us feel like our opinions mattered. If every once and a while you guys would say “hey this is what we’re thinking about doing, what do you guys think?” I think a lot of people would be much happier.
• Please remember with whatever you do this board is immensely important to many different people in many different ways. I would ask what is the first thing you think about when you think about inforoo? For me it would be the amazing people I have met (and hope to meet), the amazing music I have discovered, and the amazing festival that it prepared me for (and that I hope to help other people be more prepared for). I know I am not the only person who has met people that they now consider friends on this board. It is a special place for all of us and like anything else change is scary, especially when there is reason to believe the person heading the changes does not have the same emotional connection that we do. Remember that when we get pissed off about something it is not because we are trying to be Dicks. It is because we love this place and we don’t want to see it screwed up.
These next two are directed to Adam
• Sometimes tone is everything. I know I have been guilty of this, but so have you. You have done much, much better this go round, but even so you have a tendency (maybe unintentional) to come off as elitist and pompous in your posts and communications. Just remember whenever you talk to the users that we are essentially your customers. The only reason Inforoo even exists is because of all of us. Treat us well, if nothing else it is just good business sense.
• Another one directed more towards Adam. Get to know us and let us get to know you. Post on here for reason other than your duties. I have been reading this board for over 4 years (in fact my 4th inforoo birthday is tomorrow) and I honestly have no idea what kind of music you listen to or anything else about you. It’s a lot easier to hate something you know nothing about.
I would like to say to a certain degree I think things are already improving. There are times when I doubt a post like this would go unlocked for long and I hope this is a trend of opening up the operations of the board more. This is just a start I have some more suggestions and I will post them as time permits.
Post by itrainmonkeys on May 21, 2012 11:34:05 GMT -5
Great post, bacon (so silly that i'm calling you bacon while we discuss these serious, drama-filled moments....i had the same feeling when johnnydildo posted a well thought out response lol. i love the internet). I think it's great that we can have more open discussion like this as opposed to some times in the past where things would get locked down right away.
P.S. In regards to the tone comment little things like the web address of this new sub-forum are not helping anything. If you really think we are all just whining the problem is worse than I thought
"Got a suggestion on how to improve the board? Put it here."
Bigger picture/airing of grievances for this subforum. People had complaints so it's better if we hear specifically what those complaints are and can address them. The other subforum for the Solar Stage can be used for more simple/basic problems like not knowing how to fix your avatar/signature or if something like the "like/dislike" function stops working. Pretty much a "help" forum while this one is more of a complaints/suggestions forum.
• Please involve the common users in your decisions and changes more.
This is going to be tough as it will require a lot more work on the part of the moderators to decide when, where, and how to crowdsource input on decisions but it is certainly something to strive for. Perhaps I haven’t always shown it with my actions but I always have believed that Inforoo is nothing without the membership and that I and the other moderators only exist to serve the membership
Yes I know you and the mods are in charge. As you have expressed to me multiple times if you want to do something you can do it for no reason other than you want to. I don’t disagree that you can, but should you?
Sometimes I do things for fun to screw with people, like an odd header or footer or bumping NoD’s karma to a few hundred thousand when he had it turned off. Other times I’ve taken unilateral action (like banning you for instance) because my feelings were hurt or something had been done that I was tired of dealing with. In most of these instances the other mods are usually able to talk me out of acting impetuously. This is something that I promise to all of you that I will personally work on, running things past the other mods before taking unilateral action and reacting to my inclination to ban/suspend/etc.
That said there are a limited number of those mods who have consistently used the board as a normal posting user over the last 2 year. I understand that they are still here even if we don’t see them, but I do think not posting and interacting often changes their perspective on some issues.
I agree that being an active poster is an important part of being a mod, in order to ensure that the “pulse” of the board is felt and understood. I disagree that the current active mods (except maybe me) are not participating though.
Even for those of us that don’t have any particularly useful skills for this board make us feel like our opinions mattered. If every once and a while you guys would say “hey this is what we’re thinking about doing, what do you guys think?” I think a lot of people would be much happier.
Similar to the point above, this is something that we must strive for even though it will take time and effort. Please bear with us as we figure out how to incorporate more member feedback. Any organization/business/forum exists only to serve the needs of its customers/members/stakeholders and we must do a better job of understanding what these needs truly are. This is certainly something that you can expect in the future.
• Please remember with whatever you do this board is immensely important to many different people in many different ways. I would ask what is the first thing you think about when you think about inforoo?
Again, sort of addressed above. My thoughts are how lucky we all are to have this place and that we have 15K+ registered members opinions to consider on any given question. It is driven by the membership and though all decisions have always considered the membership, we can do a better job of polling the feelings of the membership at large.
• Sometimes tone is everything. I know I have been guilty of this, but so have you. You have done much, much better this go round, but even so you have a tendency (maybe unintentional) to come off as elitist and pompous in your posts and communications. Just remember whenever you talk to the users that we are essentially your customers. The only reason Inforoo even exists is because of all of us. Treat us well, if nothing else it is just good business sense.
I will watch my tone. Perhaps I did feel a slight sense of elitism, however subconsciously, that came through in my dealings with board members. I will certainly be more careful in the future. It would be incredibly helpful to me if any specific instances were brought to my attention so that I can be more aware of this.
• Another one directed more towards Adam. Get to know us and let us get to know you. Post on here for reason other than your duties. I have been reading this board for over 4 years (in fact my 4th inforoo birthday is tomorrow) and I honestly have no idea what kind of music you listen to or anything else about you. It’s a lot easier to hate something you know nothing about.
Already in progress, Bacon. I have limited time and resources as I am a full time student and work four jobs so I had been focusing my time for Inforoo on the back end. Moving forward I’m going to make sure that I spend more time on the front end and let you all get to know me as a person, not just some enigmatic founder.
I hope this all helps, any other questions/comments/suggestions? Any board member is welcome to contribute! Think of this thread as a town hall meeting, anything is fair game. (though I ask that you keep more technical discussions to the Solar Stage)
I actually really appreciate the creation of this forum. A lot of the animosity coming from the posters towards the mods had a lot to do with the fact that it seemed like whatever we were saying was not important to you guys, like it was just being ignored. The great Emoney debacle was a perfect example. Though there may have been a handful of posters who were offended by money and the way he talked/did things/etc, there was clearly a strong, prominent group of mostly daily posters on here who were strongly opposed to his ban and we seemed to just get the "eh well we don't want him here so f*ck it" treatment. Just the fact that you guys have started this section makes it seem like you're making a genuine effort to get input from the group.
However, I really hope you guys actually listen to the stuff we say here. Like Bacon said, this place is really really important to a lot of people and I would be really bummed to see the day that I would rather walk away than deal with the nonsense this place is occasionally known for. So far I haven't experienced anything that strong, and I hope the creation of this forum will bring us back towards a more perfect union (lololol).
I think that there is one thing that no one ever acknowledges, and that is posters leaving the forum. Though a lot of them came back eventually, there was a lengthy absence of posters like Flanzo, Juggs, Alberto, and more. Not only did the mods seem to not care about this, but I think I saw some even mocking them, calling them "drama queens" and the like. I think that when people who clearly love this board, enough to rack up 5000+ posts or be on here every single day, decide to leave, it should not be something that is taken lightly. There is a lot of drama and nonsensical fighting on here and in my few years on the board the emoney incident was the first time I ever saw a mass exodus like that. I think that is something that the mods and owners should take very seriously because, as stated before, the people are what make this forum. So although it is centered around a festival I have come to fall in love with, I love these people as well, and when some of them leave because of poor modding or unwarranted banning, or anything else, I think it should be addressed and taken seriously, and not just in a "he broke the rules and now he is banned" explanation. I understand the concept of not doing your dirty laundry in public but I also understand the concept of this being a community, and when it seems like there is some kind of dirt behind the scenes that we don't know about, people start to act, and more importantly think, irrationally. Communication between "leaders" and us regular folk is key with any kind of endeavor. Without communication, you will lose the trust and respect of the masses, and when you lose that, the only way to effectively get anything done is by banning people. If you have the respect, love, and trust of your posters, then they will listen to you. That way, you don't have to resort to the ban hammer every time there is a disagreement between a mod and a regular poster.
Finally, Adam, I want to say something directly to you in the most respectful way possible. I think that a lot of the decisions around here that you made in the past have been poor, but I don't think its because you have poor judgement, but more because of the aforementioned fact that you are rarely around here. No one can blame you for that, because as you said, you're a full time student with several jobs. A message board should be the least of your worries there. However, I think that should be a two way street. In other words, I don't think you should be the final decision maker on big decisions regarding the posters. I understand you are the owner of Inforoo, and in that aspect you have every right to run this board the way you want to. However, I see people like ITM, CKS, Druid, and Roofan on here pretty much every day and a few other mods on at least once a week. The only times I ever see you post are for disciplinary reasons, which has come to make me (and many other posters) look at you like more of an authority figure than a fellow Rooster. It alienates the rest of the board when the only time you come here is when it is crisis time, or to promote something (rules, other msg boards, inforoo tshirts, etc). So I guess what I am getting at is that I think when it comes to something like a lifetime ban of a regular poster, I really do believe that the mods who post more regularly should have some kind of veto power or something. I also think in delicate matters like bans of regular posters, non-mod regular posters should have a say as well. I understand you are our mods but the only thing that got you there is appointment or being involved in the creation of this message board. You were not elected. No one except the existing mods have said, "we think that you are the best person for this job." Because of that, I feel that it is completely ridiculous for any mod to assert that their judgement is more valuable than other non-mod posters, especially ones who are here every day and actually see these events unfold in real time instead of just going back and skimming them over.
Sorry for the long post, and double sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way with any of that. I try to be as straightforward and no-BS as possible when it comes to stuff like this, so I'm just saying what I feel.
We have all kinds of cool tools that allow us to track IP addresses. To be clear, e-money was a PITA but the real reason he was banned was because he was hacking inforoo and proboards. His involvement with boothead re: the chat way back when didnt help either...
I agree that people leaving is an issue, something that we should look into.
Regarding me not being the final arbiter of decisions, its rare that I am in that role and I will be making an effort to spend more time interacting with all of you.
I agree that this place is a bit of an oligarchy but I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing. We will be trying harder to incorporate member feedback into our decisions. THat said it wouldnt be fair to allow the minority of members that are extremely active here assert that their opinions are more valuable than those of others either.
We have all kinds of cool tools that allow us to track IP addresses. To be clear, e-money was a PITA but the real reason he was banned was because he was hacking inforoo and proboards. His involvement with boothead re: the chat way back when didnt help either...
I agree that people leaving is an issue, something that we should look into.
Regarding me not being the final arbiter of decisions, its rare that I am in that role and I will be making an effort to spend more time interacting with all of you.
I agree that this place is a bit of an oligarchy but I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing. We will be trying harder to incorporate member feedback into our decisions. THat said it wouldnt be fair to allow the minority of members that are extremely active here assert that their opinions are more valuable than those of others either.
It is not really being a oligarchy that is the problem, one my largest complaints is that you did not interact with this board for years at a time (though you have been around a lot more recently) until it came up as a mba project, or a new capital venture. Both of these things are fine, but you will have to understand getting a lot of push back when you enforce that oligarchy as a stranger to people on here. Not someone who knows us, goes to festivals, with us or really interacts with us very often. Maybe this is something that will change, and it has been moving in that direction a little but in a lot of ways you feel like an absentee landlord who does not understand all the ins and outs of the people on here, and when you do not know the people or the complete situation a complete oligarchy is not a great way to run things in my opinion.
When I go to almost any major city or festival odds are pretty high I will be be camping with/visiting/hanging with my friends from on here, inforoo is a strong social network, and it means a lot to us. So when we see someone who at least has the appearance of not really being that involved making what appear to be unilateral decisions on the some of the most important matters people will find this disturbing.
Of course the answer that you can have is that you own the board and you can do what you wish and it is true. However what you have will be flat out worthless if you alienate the people who added the value to it to start with.
I agree that this place is a bit of an oligarchy but I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing. We will be trying harder to incorporate member feedback into our decisions. THat said it wouldnt be fair to allow the minority of members that are extremely active here assert that their opinions are more valuable than those of others either.
If you don't mind me asking, why? I mean, you say that the heavy posters make up the minority of the board. While they may make up the minority of the number of users on the board, I would say they make up a pretty decent majority of the posts around here. It's not so much that the heavy users opinions are more valuable but more that they just have more perspective and thus can make better, more fair decisions. You have to think about the fact that the biggest numerical majority of users on here just straight up don't post. The next largest numerical majority probably comes in, looks for answers to simple questions and then leaves. Finally, there is another numerical majority of people who come in, don't look for anything, just make duplicate posts asking stupid questions that have been covered and answered 400 times before. Those people usually get torn apart and then mods will yell at us for treating noobs like idiots but honestly, if they displayed the tiniest bit of common sense it would be a lot easier to overlook when someone comes in and asks "uhhhh so like, what time should I get in line?" for the 400th time, instead of just looking at one of the many first time roofers guides this site makes available. But thats a different issue altogether, kind of went on a rant there.
The fact that this is the first I heard of emoney hacking inforoo/proboards kind of reinforces that whole "lack of communication" thing I said. I'm aware thats something you say you are working on but I just have to reiterate that if I knew he was hacking the forums I would have been MUCH less sympathetic towards him. Simply coming out when he got banned and saying "he got caught hacking the boards" (whatever that means) may have prevented a lot of the ridiculousness that ensured after his ban.
I think that there is one thing that no one ever acknowledges, and that is posters leaving the forum. Though a lot of them came back eventually, there was a lengthy absence of posters like Flanzo, Juggs, Alberto, and more. Not only did the mods seem to not care about this, but I think I saw some even mocking them, calling them "drama queens" and the like.
FTR, I was genuinely very upset about every member that left, and rejoiced when they came back.
We hate to see people leave - regulars, especially, but at the same time, we can't go chasing after everyone who decides to go. Some people leave for totally legitimate reasons (which is already a very subjective thing), others leave for reasons that many would perceive as silly or narcissistic. Many come back in their original form, others come back - without you ever knowing - in another form, and others apparently choose not to ever return. It's one of those things that just can't be handled on a case by case basis. Do we chime in here and there on these departures? Yeah, but largely, it's not something we go diving into. Some of these people who leave are friends of ours IRL or on FB or in some other form, so we catch updates and hear all types of crazy crap after they leave.
It is not really being a oligarchy that is the problem, one my largest complaints is that you did not interact with this board for years at a time
I just looked through my last 400 posts, which took me back about a year, and about 90% of them are in the preservation hall. You're right, I've been neglectful and I took this place and my role in it for granted. My only regret however is that it took this particular event for me to become aware of my neglect. Regardless, I'm now aware and you can bet I'll be working to make up for it.
However what you have will be flat out worthless if you alienate the people who added the value to it to start with.
THat said it wouldnt be fair to allow the minority of members that are extremely active here assert that their opinions are more valuable than those of others either.
If you don't mind me asking, why? I mean, you say that the heavy posters make up the minority of the board. While they may make up the minority of the number of users on the board, I would say they make up a pretty decent majority of the posts around here. It's not so much that the heavy users opinions are more valuable but more that they just have more perspective and thus can make better, more fair decisions.
Perhaps its my own innate sense of fairness. Its certainly open for discussion. That said, boothead and emoney (just as an easy example) were among our most prolific posters, if we listened to what they wanted, they would be the only two left in this place. We have to strike a balance between catering to all of the constituencies that you mentioned and even ~4500 per day that visit us to read that are not members at all.
Post by popsicle sarah on May 22, 2012 20:48:14 GMT -5
I'll start this post by saying that I'm very proud of Adam for owning up to his mistakes and for working on not repeating them.
I agree with what everyone has said here. I especially agree with the idea of listening more to what the users of this board have to say about certain issues that come up and I'd like to throw some ideas out there. I'll preface this by saying that by no means am I an expert on management and selling, but I have a pretty decent resume.
I have been in management for several years and I've learned a lot about keeping a fine balance between being a "boss" and providing a stable and fun environment while still receiving the respect that is needed to be an effective leader. I'm not saying that leading the members of Inforoo is like being a "boss", but they are similar.
One of the most difficult challenges that most managers face is implementing change. It's natural for most people to shun change especially change that is forced upon them. It's like the response you feel as a child when your parent says "because I said so". I recently left a job that I loved because the owner of the business that I managed for almost 5 years starting giving me the "because I said so" line which I was supposed to hand down to my 50+ employees with no questions asked or answered. Over my years of managing this business I learned that there definitely are times when "because I said so" is necessary, but the less you use that line, the more respected the employees feel. Respected employees are happy employees. Happy employees means happy customers. Happy customers means happy owners.
Pretty early on in the development of the business that I managed, the owner and I practiced a strategy for implementing change. We decided to view the employees as the internal customers. And if we were to make change, we were to sell it. Selling change correctly will gain the "buy-in". If we can get the buy-in from a majority, that majority will help gain the buy-in of the most skeptical.
What's the way to get someone to buy? Sell! We took on the responsibility of selling the change we sought to make. We expected our employees to sell to customers. We expected ourselves to sell to our internal customers. Anyone who's ever been in sales knows there's a formula to it and at the core it's pretty much the same every time: establish the need and overcome objections. Overcoming objections is simply referring back to the need that has already been established (and agreed upon).
I have that natural gut-feeling of disliking change, as most do. Want to make a change? Establish the need for the change and then if I object, overcome my objections by referring back to the need for change that I have already accepted.
Selling change, having an open-door policy and strong leadership are proven successful strategies for maintaining peace, order, and harmony in many different types of organizations. (If I were the owner of a message board I would use the previous sentence as my leadership strategy statement.)
I love Inforoo and will forever be grateful toward you, Adam, for creating it. My life is full of Inforoo. I met most of my RL best friends and my soul mate through Inforoo.
One more idea: I think Adam should take the honor of being BMOTM… treated as every other BMOTM (meaning no grilling him about Inforoo-related issues). Whatd’ya say?
If you don't mind me asking, why? I mean, you say that the heavy posters make up the minority of the board. While they may make up the minority of the number of users on the board, I would say they make up a pretty decent majority of the posts around here. It's not so much that the heavy users opinions are more valuable but more that they just have more perspective and thus can make better, more fair decisions.
Perhaps its my own innate sense of fairness. Its certainly open for discussion. That said, boothead and emoney (just as an easy example) were among our most prolific posters, if we listened to what they wanted, they would be the only two left in this place. We have to strike a balance between catering to all of the constituencies that you mentioned and even ~4500 per day that visit us to read that are not members at all.
They liked a few of us
I don't really think they were among the most prolific posters though.
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
We have all kinds of cool tools that allow us to track IP addresses. To be clear, e-money was a PITA but the real reason he was banned was because he was hacking inforoo and proboards. His involvement with boothead re: the chat way back when didnt help either...
First off, thank you for interacting with us more. That helps a lot.
BUT hacking????? Really, do you know what hacking is? You are pretty much calling him a criminal. Using an IP proxy to start multiple accounts isn't hacking. It might be silly and/or stupid but it's not hacking. That statement is absurd and very over the top.
So again, it makes it hard to trust you or take you seriously. I know you are trying but that's not the best start. Claiming a banned member was hacking the site??? Meh.