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Bortles is the biggest reason that they won their first two playoff games.
His scrambling was the difference in the Bills game and they beat the Steelers in a 40+ point shootout.
I don't see blaming him for the Pats loss.
I didn't blame him for the loss to the Patriots. I also wasn't referring to their first two playoff games. Hell, they should have probably went ahead and won the AFC Championship game too. Bortles can scramble and has a small bit of Favre in him in where he can make some plays on the run. And he has a decent arm. But his inaccuracy in the medium to deep balls will likely prevent him from ever winning a championship. I don't see Taylor getting any in his future either. Dilfer and Brad Johnson were two QB's who were able to step in and win titles without being Brees, Aikman, Brady, Rodgers or whomever. But the Jags winning a title would be in spite of him being on the roster. The 2017 team was loaded for bear defensively, has some really solid running backs and when healthy, a pretty solid WR corps. But when you're playing elite competition, sometimes you need a Tom Brady or Brett Favre to come in and win the game - sort of like yesterday's game. Alex Smith isn't going to be that guy. Blake Bortles isn't likely to be that guy either. So in my mind, as good as Jacksonville's team is and as good as the coaching was in the playoffs, I don't expect a super bowl win under Bortles at all much less Taylor. That's why I give the team a 0% chance under either of those guys.
It's my opinion, and I certainly could be wrong. As noted above, not all championships have required elite quarterbacking. But when you go back to the last several Super Bowls (year the bowl was actually played in) since 2000, there have only been 2 of the 18 teams that didn't have an elite quarterback (at least at that time) though both of those teams (incidentally the 2002-2003 Bucs and 2000-2001 Ravens) are somewhat similar to Jacksonville. It's also been 15 years since an elite QB hasn't won the Super Bowl.
2017 - Tom Brady
2016 - Peyton Manning
2015 - Tom Brady
2014 - Russell Wilson
2013 - Joe Flacco
2012 - Eli Manning
2011 - Aaron Rodgers
2010 - Drew Brees
2009 - Ben Roethlisberger
2008 - Eli Manning
2007 - Peyton Manning
2006 - Ben Roethlisberger
2005 - Tom Brady
2004 - Tom Brady
2003 - Brad Johnson <---
2002 - Tom Brady
2001 - Trent Dilfer <---
2000 - Kurt Warner
^^
Again, just my opinion.
No, I get you. I think Bortles has played better in the playoffs than Taylor has in about 95% of his games but he's not elite. Of those above, he's probably most competitive with Flacco, Johnson and Dilfer. They could win a SB with him but a lot would have to break their way.
Anyways, my post wasn't so much to say that Bortles was great, just that I wouldn't blame him for their not advancing to the SB. I suspect that they stick with him next season, too, and maybe don't even draft a QB high.
Peyton was elite his entire career regardless of what his skill level was at in his final season. He had it. He won his second and is probably fairly unique as a QB who has won multiple titles with multiple teams. His smarts make up the difference. Peyton 2016 > Bortles
Eli has two titles. I don't put him at the top of elite QB's, but he's likely a hall of famer with the 2 Super Bowl rings regardless of his up and down career. Like his brother, he was raised living and breathing football from a great QB mind (his dad) who himself never achieved greatness. He also has it. Eli > Bortles
Flacco was the highest paid player in NFL history when he signed his extension back in 13 or 14. He's a little bigger and less mobile than some of the others on the list. He also hasn't had some of the numbers put up by Brees, Brady or Rodgers. But he is a Super Bowl champion QB and didn't get that mega deal based on not being elite. The Ravens have struggled a bit since, but he's probably good enough to get them back all things considered. And I think he's only 32 or 33, so he's probably got a couple more years to go. However, in 2013, he lived up to his status and consequently got paid for it. Maybe a +/- .500 record since hasn't shown that he has been able to live up to the deal he signed. I don't have a problem with that per se', . Bortles is not in the same class. He may be slightly an outlier of the rest of the "elite" QB's on the list. But I don't think anyone would argue he's more in the class of the other super bowl champion QB's than he is with a Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson.
^^^ Again - just my opinions. But the facts are that Higher Level quarterbacking has won the last 14 Super Bowls. Anyone is free to argue that's preposterous if they believe so. But the facts are what they are. FWIW, I like Nick Foles but do not consider him an elite QB. He's good for sure. If he wins, he's somewhere between Flacco and Brad Johnson on the list of Super Bowl Champion QB's since 2000.
Edit to say I was working on this post about an hour ago and got sidetracked before I could submit.
Peyton was elite his entire career regardless of what his skill level was at in his final season. He had it. He won his second and is probably fairly unique as a QB who has won multiple titles with multiple teams. His smarts make up the difference. Peyton 2016 > Bortles
Eli has two titles. I don't put him at the top of elite QB's, but he's likely a hall of famer with the 2 Super Bowl rings regardless of his up and down career. Like his brother, he was raised living and breathing football from a great QB mind (his dad) who himself never achieved greatness. He also has it. Eli > Bortles
Flacco was the highest paid player in NFL history when he signed his extension back in 13 or 14. He's a little bigger and less mobile than some of the others on the list. He also hasn't had some of the numbers put up by Brees, Brady or Rodgers. But he is a Super Bowl champion QB and didn't get that mega deal based on not being elite. The Ravens have struggled a bit since, but he's probably good enough to get them back all things considered. And I think he's only 32 or 33, so he's probably got a couple more years to go. However, in 2013, he lived up to his status and consequently got paid for it. Maybe a +/- .500 record since hasn't shown that he has been able to live up to the deal he signed. I don't have a problem with that per se', . Bortles is not in the same class. He may be slightly an outlier of the rest of the "elite" QB's on the list. But I don't think anyone would argue he's more in the class of the other super bowl champion QB's than he is with a Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson.
^^^ Again - just my opinions. But the facts are that Higher Level quarterbacking has won the last 14 Super Bowls. Anyone is free to argue that's preposterous if they believe so. But the facts are what they are. FWIW, I like Nick Foles but do not consider him an elite QB. He's good for sure. If he wins, he's somewhere between Flacco and Brad Johnson on the list of Super Bowl Champion QB's since 2000.
This doesn't really mean anything though. Just because someone gets a good contract doesn't mean its justified. Sanchez got a great deal in his last year with the Jets. It just means they have good agents.
Decision-making wise Peyton was still great in his last year, but you could've put any semi-respectable QB in his position and they still would've won the SB that year. Eli is elite in the playoffs and that's about it.
Peyton was elite his entire career regardless of what his skill level was at in his final season. He had it. He won his second and is probably fairly unique as a QB who has won multiple titles with multiple teams. His smarts make up the difference. Peyton 2016 > Bortles
Eli has two titles. I don't put him at the top of elite QB's, but he's likely a hall of famer with the 2 Super Bowl rings regardless of his up and down career. Like his brother, he was raised living and breathing football from a great QB mind (his dad) who himself never achieved greatness. He also has it. Eli > Bortles
Flacco was the highest paid player in NFL history when he signed his extension back in 13 or 14. He's a little bigger and less mobile than some of the others on the list. He also hasn't had some of the numbers put up by Brees, Brady or Rodgers. But he is a Super Bowl champion QB and didn't get that mega deal based on not being elite. The Ravens have struggled a bit since, but he's probably good enough to get them back all things considered. And I think he's only 32 or 33, so he's probably got a couple more years to go. However, in 2013, he lived up to his status and consequently got paid for it. Maybe a +/- .500 record since hasn't shown that he has been able to live up to the deal he signed. I don't have a problem with that per se', . Bortles is not in the same class. He may be slightly an outlier of the rest of the "elite" QB's on the list. But I don't think anyone would argue he's more in the class of the other super bowl champion QB's than he is with a Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson.
^^^ Again - just my opinions. But the facts are that Higher Level quarterbacking has won the last 14 Super Bowls. Anyone is free to argue that's preposterous if they believe so. But the facts are what they are. FWIW, I like Nick Foles but do not consider him an elite QB. He's good for sure. If he wins, he's somewhere between Flacco and Brad Johnson on the list of Super Bowl Champion QB's since 2000.
This doesn't really mean anything though. Just because someone gets a good contract doesn't mean its justified. Sanchez got a great deal in his last year with the Jets. It just means they have good agents.
Decision-making wise Peyton was still great in his last year, but you could've put any semi-respectable QB in his position and they still would've won the SB that year. Eli is elite in the playoffs and that's about it.
They wouldn't give him the contract extension that he wanted before the season. He bet on himself and was able to leverage the SB win into a huge payday. The fact that they wouldn't pay him leading into the season lends more to the argument that even the Ravens weren't sure that he was elite. He's a good QB but not a great one.
EDIT: One reason I'd say that his paycheck is not necessarily an indicator of his eliteness would be the contract that Kirk Cousins will sign this offseason.
Peyton was elite his entire career regardless of what his skill level was at in his final season. He had it. He won his second and is probably fairly unique as a QB who has won multiple titles with multiple teams. His smarts make up the difference. Peyton 2016 > Bortles
Eli has two titles. I don't put him at the top of elite QB's, but he's likely a hall of famer with the 2 Super Bowl rings regardless of his up and down career. Like his brother, he was raised living and breathing football from a great QB mind (his dad) who himself never achieved greatness. He also has it. Eli > Bortles
Flacco was the highest paid player in NFL history when he signed his extension back in 13 or 14. He's a little bigger and less mobile than some of the others on the list. He also hasn't had some of the numbers put up by Brees, Brady or Rodgers. But he is a Super Bowl champion QB and didn't get that mega deal based on not being elite. The Ravens have struggled a bit since, but he's probably good enough to get them back all things considered. And I think he's only 32 or 33, so he's probably got a couple more years to go. However, in 2013, he lived up to his status and consequently got paid for it. Maybe a +/- .500 record since hasn't shown that he has been able to live up to the deal he signed. I don't have a problem with that per se', . Bortles is not in the same class. He may be slightly an outlier of the rest of the "elite" QB's on the list. But I don't think anyone would argue he's more in the class of the other super bowl champion QB's than he is with a Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson.
^^^ Again - just my opinions. But the facts are that Higher Level quarterbacking has won the last 14 Super Bowls. Anyone is free to argue that's preposterous if they believe so. But the facts are what they are. FWIW, I like Nick Foles but do not consider him an elite QB. He's good for sure. If he wins, he's somewhere between Flacco and Brad Johnson on the list of Super Bowl Champion QB's since 2000.
This doesn't really mean anything though. Just because someone gets a good contract doesn't mean its justified. Sanchez got a great deal in his last year with the Jets. It just means they have good agents.
Decision-making wise Peyton was still great in his last year, but you could've put any semi-respectable QB in his position and they still would've won the SB that year. Eli is elite in the playoffs and that's about it.
Of course. But you don't get to be the highest paid player in the history of the NFL because you weren't at least somewhat at that level. It was like cdevaney said. He played that year into his contract. He's not the greatest by any means. And the contract itself doesn't make him an elite player by itself. But he definitely earned it with that Super Bowl winning season. It's also completely fair to critique the deal 5 years later.
As for the second paragraph. Yeah. Peyton was a shadow of his crazy Indianapolis days at that point in his career. Yet he's a two time champion and brought a championship to a team that hadn't seen it since the last 2 John Elway years. He did get the league MVP 2 seasons prior to his super bowl championship year. So I wouldn't say he was physically done quite then. But he is perhaps one of the 2 or 3 greatest quaterbacks of all time. So he's definitely elite riding off into the sunset even if we all agree that it obviously wasn't his best season. But the brains and skill were there. He won even though he was past his peak.
Also for Eli, yeah. I know people that hate the Mannings (mostly friends from outside of the New Orleans area) who think Eli ever being a Hall of Famer is absurd. But then again, are there any retired QB's in the history of the NFL that won multiple Super Bowls and didn't get in? No. And to get into the NFL Hall of Fame, you have to be elite. FWIW, I don't consider him to be at all in the class of Manning his brother/Brees/Favre/Brady/Rodgers or anything. He's probably closest to Flacco near the bottom on the list of Super Bowl winning QB's of the 2000's I consider elite. But he has been able to find a way to beat what I think were better New England teams in both super bowls he won. One of those years (I guess his last win) was from a wildcard. Gritty and scrappy as shit when it mattered which counts IMHO.
This doesn't really mean anything though. Just because someone gets a good contract doesn't mean its justified. Sanchez got a great deal in his last year with the Jets. It just means they have good agents.
Decision-making wise Peyton was still great in his last year, but you could've put any semi-respectable QB in his position and they still would've won the SB that year. Eli is elite in the playoffs and that's about it.
Of course. But you don't get to be the highest paid player in the history of the NFL because you weren't at least somewhat at that level. It was like cdevaney said. He played that year into his contract. He's not the greatest by any means. And the contract itself doesn't make him an elite player by itself. But he definitely earned it with that Super Bowl winning season. It's also completely fair to critique the deal 5 years later.
As for the second paragraph. Yeah. Peyton was a shadow of his crazy Indianapolis days at that point in his career. Yet he's a two time champion and brought a championship to a team that hadn't seen it since the last 2 John Elway years. He did get the league MVP 2 seasons prior to his super bowl championship year. So I wouldn't say he was physically done quite then. But he is perhaps one of the 2 or 3 greatest quaterbacks of all time. So he's definitely elite riding off into the sunset even if we all agree that it obviously wasn't his best season. But the brains and skill were there. He won even though he was past his peak.
Also for Eli, yeah. I know people that hate the Mannings (mostly friends from outside of the New Orleans area) who think Eli ever being a Hall of Famer is absurd. But then again, are there any retired QB's in the history of the NFL that won multiple Super Bowls and didn't get in? No. And to get into the NFL Hall of Fame, you have to be elite. FWIW, I don't consider him to be at all in the class of Manning his brother/Brees/Favre/Brady/Rodgers or anything. He's probably closest to Flacco near the bottom on the list of Super Bowl winning QB's of the 2000's I consider elite. But he has been able to find a way to beat what I think were better New England teams in both super bowls he won. One of those years (I guess his last win) was from a wildcard. Gritty and scrappy as shit when it mattered which counts IMHO.
The defense won the championship. Manning just happened to be the QB.
Total body of work Eli has twice as many tds as Wilson. If Farve gets a pass for breaking the interception record, Eli should get a pass for throwing a lot. I don't think he's elite. But he's better than most teams have ever had.
Total body of work Eli has twice as many tds as Wilson. If Farve gets a pass for breaking the interception record, Eli should get a pass for throwing a lot. I don't think he's elite. But he's better than most teams have ever had.
Total body of work Eli has twice as many tds as Wilson. If Farve gets a pass for breaking the interception record, Eli should get a pass for throwing a lot. I don't think he's elite. But he's better than most teams have ever had.
I think this is probably wrong, but it would take me too long to come up with all possible counters, some of the counters will get picked apart, and nothing will be accomplished. So there. You can have this one.
Edit: But, even just starting with cdev's list, which I mostly agree with and doesn't even go back that far in history, there are nine teams (counting Peyton and Warner twice each). Then there's the Cowboys (multiple), Niners (multiple), Dolphins for sure, so that's twelve. Then you can debate whether he's better than Rivers (no), Ryan and Stafford (probably not), etc. Thirteen to fifteen. And that's also limited to current players. I'm not an expert on guys like Namath, Stabler, Theismann, Moon, and so on, but I think older guys would probably compare them favorably to Eli also.
Total body of work Eli has twice as many tds as Wilson. If Farve gets a pass for breaking the interception record, Eli should get a pass for throwing a lot. I don't think he's elite. But he's better than most teams have ever had.
Russell also has more goal line game ending interceptions in a Superbowl than Eli. Whole body of work, Russell can definitely pass him in terms of raw numbers and SBs, but idk if he will.
I just think if you're going to put Brady over Manning it's a rings thing, and Eli has 2, and it's not like he has Dilfer numbers.
Tom Brady Peyton Manning Aaron Rodgers Drew Brees Ben Roethlisberger Kurt Warner Russell Wilson Eli Manning Joe Flacco Brad Johnson Trent Dilfer
(Based on their total body of work)
This actually isn't that bad. I don't know where I'd put Warner, Roethlisberger and Wilson in what order and compared with Flacco and Manning. I'm giving Brees the slight advantage over Rodgers based on the complete body of work because he'll have pretty much every major record there is to have within 2 years. He only has the 1 Super Bowl win (which I think Rodgers only has one as well). But I think Brady is greatest of all time. If he wins another super bowl this year, it's almost inarguable. Based on Super Bowls alone, Bradshaw would be up there for his 4 and Aikman for his 3. But I think Aikman was 5x the QB that Bradshaw was. And there are always the super QBs who never obtained a Super Bowl championship such as Warren Moon, Dan Marino, etc.
Eli will likely be top 6 all time passing yards (5 depending on how Ben/River end up), there's a chance Stafford/Ryan never pass him. He'll finish top 10 at worst in TDs. He has 2 Superbowls. He has no Superbowl losses. Lots of teams could do worse.
The best offense players he's ever had have been Brandon Jacobs, Plaxico Burress, and ODB, most qbs people say are better than him have had at least one player better than that most of the time two.
Post by Jake Jortles on Jan 22, 2018 16:47:18 GMT -5
Russel wasnt even elite at the time of the SB win. Flaaco wasnt. Eli is not "elite".
Depends on your definition of elite, but hate when the word is used to define anyone in the last 15 years beyond Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees and Ben.
Russel wasnt even elite at the time of the SB win. Flaaco wasnt. Eli is not "elite".
Depends on your definition of elite, but hate when the word is used to define anyone in the last 15 years beyond Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees and Ben.
Those are the elite.
I've heard it argued that elite = top eight but that's really just because of the whole NCAA bracket thing and they're working out of a larger pool. Maybe top eight of all time would be the truly elite QB's. I hate Brady but you'd have to put him at the top of that list and I think Manning makes that cut as well.
Post by FuzzyWarbles on Jan 22, 2018 17:08:31 GMT -5
I'd like to see Russell with even a decent o-line. Doesn't help him that they haven't had an RB the caliber of Lynch since the SB wins either. But Brady never really had a good RB besides Dillon at the end of his career, which may be a testament to how great he really is. Marino suffered from this predicament also. Rumor was that Jimmy Johnson told Barry Sanders if he retired for a year, he could sign with any team he wanted and team up with Dan. The next season the Dolphins bit it in the playoffs and both Marino and Jimmy retired and that combo never came to fruition.
Of course. But you don't get to be the highest paid player in the history of the NFL because you weren't at least somewhat at that level. It was like cdevaney said. He played that year into his contract. He's not the greatest by any means. And the contract itself doesn't make him an elite player by itself. But he definitely earned it with that Super Bowl winning season. It's also completely fair to critique the deal 5 years later.
As for the second paragraph. Yeah. Peyton was a shadow of his crazy Indianapolis days at that point in his career. Yet he's a two time champion and brought a championship to a team that hadn't seen it since the last 2 John Elway years. He did get the league MVP 2 seasons prior to his super bowl championship year. So I wouldn't say he was physically done quite then. But he is perhaps one of the 2 or 3 greatest quaterbacks of all time. So he's definitely elite riding off into the sunset even if we all agree that it obviously wasn't his best season. But the brains and skill were there. He won even though he was past his peak.
Also for Eli, yeah. I know people that hate the Mannings (mostly friends from outside of the New Orleans area) who think Eli ever being a Hall of Famer is absurd. But then again, are there any retired QB's in the history of the NFL that won multiple Super Bowls and didn't get in? No. And to get into the NFL Hall of Fame, you have to be elite. FWIW, I don't consider him to be at all in the class of Manning his brother/Brees/Favre/Brady/Rodgers or anything. He's probably closest to Flacco near the bottom on the list of Super Bowl winning QB's of the 2000's I consider elite. But he has been able to find a way to beat what I think were better New England teams in both super bowls he won. One of those years (I guess his last win) was from a wildcard. Gritty and scrappy as shit when it mattered which counts IMHO.
The defense won the championship. Manning just happened to be the QB.
I didn't realize that they substituted Osi on that lucky pass to Manningham.
If you're going based on full body of work, I'd also put Brees in third above Rodgers.
Brees will more than likely break most all of Peyton's career records, except the most yards in a season since Peyton owns that by one goddamn yard. Although, he does have 5 of the top 8 seasons ever by a quarterback in yardage.
By next year he'll have the career yardage record.
He has six of the top eight seasons for most completed passes, including the top three of all time. Next year, he'll top Brett Favre for most completed passes in his career.
He has the record for fifth most TDs in a single season. In two more seasons he will have the record for most TDs in his career, assuming he plays more seasons than Tom Brady. He and Tom are currently tied.
Sixth in career passer rating.
Holds the record for career average passing yards per game. He is second behind Peyton for most in a single season by a fraction of a yard.
Fourth in career net yards per pass attempt.
Holds the record for highest career completion percentage, as well as three of the four best single season completion percentages ever, including breaking the record again this year by throwing for 72.0%.
