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Post by blueslikehail on Mar 28, 2006 16:19:18 GMT -5
i appreciate your thoughtful response ka mai. i would just ask that you not give up on the democratic party just yet. unfortunately, what's the alternative? we have to attain power to change the system. ranting, marching, and not voting doesn't accomplish much. and yes voting is the lowest level of engagement in our political process - first step on the ladder. keith you really should get back into it.
and i will absolutely be the first in line to criticize a dem. for bad behavior. i can criticize the dems. in this congressional session for a number of things and i will be the first to either defend or trash clinton's policies depending on the situation and crowd. funny, here in nyc, i'm often defending him to other liberals! we just have to be extra diligent to find the good ones. i like: schweitzer in montana, frank in mass., sanders in vermont, spitzer here in ny, and finally russ in wisconsin. feingold '08 baby!!!
and clutch i am familiar with vietnam and i've been in more than a couple poli-sci courses. why are you, as a 19 year old, lecturing me like you're some wise elder who lived through that time?
again, you're buying into the notion that somehow supporting the troops as much as we can will help us win the war. it will not change conditions on the battlefield one bit whether or not i put a ribbon on my car or i criticize bush. and vietnam troops didn't come back scarred from people not supporting them enough, they came back scarred b/c they didn't know if the kid coming up to them held food or a hand grenade. so they had to kill them. that's some ptsd right there, and the troops from this war are coming back just as messed up.
seriously, the notion that some intangible, undefined support for the troops would have helped us win vietnam and will help us win this war is absurd. it the fore-father of the current right-wing talking point that the media will be to balme for losing this war for us b/c they didn't talk enough about all the good stuff that's happening in iraq. ridiculous. hey, here's what would have helped us win: if when we started the invasion, we has secured dozens of weapons caches that were subsequently looted, the contents now being used against our troops. instead, they focused on securing the oil fields. priorities people. capitalism, right baby?
the lesson in vietnam was don't get stuck fighting unneccesary wars halfway around the world. woops, guess some people missed that one.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 28, 2006 16:35:53 GMT -5
i would agree with most of that... as i had said in an earlier post some of those stickers do help the soldiers on the battlefield... the money went towards things from home being sent, baked goods, magazines, just hings from home to help get through the day....and it also went to helop their famalies while they are away so thats helpful to their piece of mind....if ya didnt cheap out and give yer money to some chinese dude whos got 9 year olds making his stickers....but as for contributing to a victory it does nothing... just maybe makes life for them a little better
as for clinton... i have to try not to like the guy... i voted for him... but in retrospect i wish i hadnt... he is a part of the same system , he was the best president of recent times....there is something to be said for not rocking the boat
and for vietnam... atleast that conflict actually did involve some kind of spread of communism and did represent some kind of threat....iraq was only for oil... although vietnam basically boils down to big business also
Last Edit: Mar 28, 2006 16:46:03 GMT -5 by keithk1055 - Back to Top
So you complain about people not standing up and doing something, then you say you don't vote.
Touche.
They may all suck, but there is always clearly someone to vote against. Usually the last name is "Bush". Watch out for Jeb. Those wankers would love a trifecta.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 28, 2006 17:15:19 GMT -5
deathreau said:
So you complain about people not standing up and doing something, then you say you don't vote.
God I hope I don't meet you.
man you just like to follow me around and make comments...im not gonna vote for one crook over another.. i dont vote for crooks....it is an unacceptable process, they pick the 2 guys we are allowed to vote for, if a third party does come in they wont let them in on the debates, the way that we even elect them is bs...it should be who gets the most votes not a certain amount of points per state, that is an outdated system that was created to keep one region from controlling everyhting.. that is not necessary in todays america... you cant convince me that they arent riggin the elections(florida/ohio)and even if we do vote someone in the supreme court will apoint whoever they please so maybe when they system becomes an acceptable process then i will vote... besides you have to register to vote and im not too keen on that nuts...im happy living my near invisible existence as far as these nuts arre concerned
by the way wha do you all think about the national id cards they are going to implement in the next decade....im sure you can guess how i feel
also did anyone catch the 60 minutes that talked about marc emery and what they are trying to do to him? horrible people they are... horrible if ya havent heard about it ya should look it up it is upsetting...
Last Edit: Mar 28, 2006 17:22:00 GMT -5 by keithk1055 - Back to Top
I could understand you not voting in a Presidential election because of the lesser evil thing, but what about local elections: city council, mayor, ordinances. Quitting on the system because you don't think it works does nothing to help.
And personally I think anyone that doesn't vote can really complain about the current political situation, because by you not voting helped it to become this way.
In no way do I want you to think this is a personal attack keithk just curiosity on my part.
The ID cards are bullshit! I already have a DL and a social security #, why do I need more?
I still don't know why the federal government has a hard on against people smoking marijuanna. If I had a kid I would rather have him smoke some pot then be drinking.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 28, 2006 19:35:35 GMT -5
you are right.. i do not participate in local government.. maybe i should...i have just been turned off to the whole political scene...mainly beacause of national politics.... i do see your point though, look at denver for example... they are acomplishing something on the local level, its kinda of irrelevant because state and national laws still apply, but it is a good step...and if it is the locals that get ya you only get a fine, people made a big deal out of it but ann arbor has been that way for years... speaking of AA hash bash is this saturday...theres something i do on a local level... although i dont know how much an event like that changes anything especially seeing as how i dont vote so my signature is no good for their initatives.....i know that nothing will change if we do nothing but ive come to the conclusion that there are all of these problematic issues in the system because the system is the problem....its unfotunate that the world cant operate like roo... where victimless crimes arent crimes at all... where you dont need police because everyone is your neighbor and we take care of our own... i know the world is incapable of operating without this structure that esists because it would devolve into survival of the fittest...which it essentially is anyways, america is the fittest, we are lucky enough to live in this bubble where the survival of the fittest rule dosent apply ... i wonder what would happen if the shiit hit the fan and everything came crashing down.... whos the fittest then? third world countrys that are armed with military weapons and are used to scraping out an existence or americans with our hunting rifles that we are still allowed to own and a craving for mcdonalds......
at any rate your probably right i should participate more..... but to be a realist.. i dont want anyhting to do with most of these people and they want nothing to do with me....i just wish they would let me be.. let me smoke my j in peace....if someone needs to eat and wants to sell their body so what, it dosent hurt anyone... most of the time they will just find some one to take them out to eat and then sleep with them as a result of that... this is much quicker(not that it is for me, but it shouldnt be illegal) ,if you dont want an abortion dont get one if you dont want to marry someone of the same sex then dont, it is just so messed up i dont think i could be a part of it even in trying to make a change.....ill just lay low and hope they dont bring their opression my way
btw.. there is an awesome song by john butler called busted..... he didnt play it at roo but it is one of his best songs and it applys to some of our discussion... all of his songs are great and many of them deal with political issues... alot about australian politics as thats where he is from but a good amount about iraq, katrina, etc...actually, if your not listening to them check em out its great stuff im going to see him on the 15th at the blind pig and cant wait, man i love ann arbor
Last Edit: Mar 28, 2006 22:14:33 GMT -5 by keithk1055 - Back to Top
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 28, 2006 20:08:35 GMT -5
as for why the hardon... almost every drug law we have was created out of racism....opiates used to be everywhere... sears catalog sold heroin in a little kit that came with a rubber strap and a syringe as a headache remedy marketed towards housewives, it wasnt until chinese immigrants started using it on a wide scale and then they made it illegal to be able to harrass them...there was a show on the history (maybe discovery or learning channel but i think history) it was called "hooked" it was an hour long show and they had one for all of your major drugs and everyone of them was basically made illegal out of racism , and now it is big business, if they ende the war on drugs tommorw the world economy would collapse the same as if oil ran out tommorow
maybe america needs some marc emery types.. he ran for mayor of vancouver and he would throw out joints to the crowd and ran on a drug law reform platform....if john kerry would have come out and said he was for some drug law reform he would have won...one of the only times i watch mtv is when they had the debate between bush and kerry about drugs and issues that effect young people... i think most of these dems do at least believe in some reforms but wont say it because young people dont vote and old religous people do and our governmetn has spent decades brainwashing them as to the evils of drugs, but most of those people vote for bush anyway and reform talk would get the younger voters out... oh well i know it takes individuals to make a change but the system just seems too fucked up to fix, its beyond totaled... i think we should sell it and get a new one
and clutch i am familiar with vietnam and i've been in more than a couple poli-sci courses. why are you, as a 19 year old, lecturing me like you're some wise elder who lived through that time?
again, you're buying into the notion that somehow supporting the troops as much as we can will help us win the war. it will not change conditions on the battlefield one bit whether or not i put a ribbon on my car or i criticize bush. and vietnam troops didn't come back scarred from people not supporting them enough, they came back scarred b/c they didn't know if the kid coming up to them held food or a hand grenade. so they had to kill them. that's some ptsd right there, and the troops from this war are coming back just as messed up.
seriously, the notion that some intangible, undefined support for the troops would have helped us win vietnam and will help us win this war is absurd. it the fore-father of the current right-wing talking point that the media will be to balme for losing this war for us b/c they didn't talk enough about all the good stuff that's happening in iraq. ridiculous. hey, here's what would have helped us win: if when we started the invasion, we has secured dozens of weapons caches that were subsequently looted, the contents now being used against our troops. instead, they focused on securing the oil fields. priorities people. capitalism, right baby?
the lesson in vietnam was don't get stuck fighting unneccesary wars halfway around the world. woops, guess some people missed that one.
Why am I lecturing you like a wise elder? Well, I have a tendency to write a lot older than I am; my intention was not so much to lecture as to inform (which I suppose is inherant in lecturing, but I didn't mean to come off like an "instructor"). But clearly the problem is that we disagree on a key issue. I think supporting the troops boosts morale and helps their performance on the battle field. And you're right, much of the psychological trauma was induced by the conditions on the front moreso than at home. Nonetheless, they (government funded psychologists) have done multiple studies indicating that our country's noticable "lack of support" had damaging effects on psyche of many a Vietnam veteran. I'm not "buying-in" to anyone's idea. The notion that an intangible concept such as "support" does not help in war is far from absurd, its actually perfectly rational.
I notice you appreciated Ka's comments and not mine; i appreciated yours ya know. Both thoughtful and certainly educated responses. But both times you seemed to talk down to me, as if my age were a factor. You talked to ka in a much more respectful tone, and nothing he said was dismissed as "ridiculous" or "absurd". Those are the kind of words people use to try and shoe their opponent away without discussing them. Notice I didn't use such dismissive or polar language. I'm sure you're very smart Pete, but you sound like every other liberal I've met at this college (my school is only 4% republican). Everyone has a rant about oil fields and halliburton and stuff "We Hate Bush!", "No Blood for Oil!"; but that fact of the matter is, if things are this messed up, a lot of people aren't doing there job; we need to be upset with the system more than the people in it. I said my piece, i'm out.
Last Edit: Mar 28, 2006 21:06:02 GMT -5 by keithk1055 - Back to Top
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 28, 2006 21:18:17 GMT -5
clutch, how come in some threeads your saying that people who like bob dylan have a higher iq then mcr fans... telling people to kill themselves if they like my chemical romance, i dont like them either but that seems extreme and not very buddhist... and in other threads you have intelligent comments to add...not to start anything just wondering
I never told anyone to kill themselves (as far as I remember, but I do have a tendency to black out). And I would still contend that if you rounded-up 500 MCR fans and 500 Bobby D fans, the Dylan fans would have a higher IQ (note: I don't necessarily mean to say that they are smarter, or more knowledgable, or better people for that matter; just take my commment prima facie.). I don't know if that answer satisfies you, and I don't mean to come off like an arrogant music snob, but MCR is manufactured music specifically engineered to hit the youth/pop markets. I don't even think the guys in the band know what they're about.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 28, 2006 22:31:01 GMT -5
also katrina didnt raise my opinion of local government very much at all... and all the towns ive lived in the local politicians are more worried about fighting strip clubs and banning smoking in bars then they are about important issues like the state of our public school systems, the uninsured, and all of the decent jobs leaving town (here in michigan at least)... like ya said ya cant change it by doing nothing... and it is impossible to avoid...so i guess working towards a change is the only way... but i will leave that to people who can stand to be around this class of person, i just couldnt take it, but hey more power to you who are out there makin it happen.. i thankyou and hope you are successful
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 28, 2006 23:17:52 GMT -5
man deathreaui didnt realize you were form toledo...i lived there for 6 years up until this past summer.... maybe we did meet.... im assuming you gotta be an eastsider based on all these confrontational posts ya been throwin at me.....or maybe a pburg yuppie
on a serious note (fuck the beef)do you listen to smokestack, they rock the village idiot quite frequently and they put on a great show, they played summercamp last year and i think they would be perfect for roo, they are doing a show at the blind pig in ann arbor after hash bash this saturday night...should be a sweet show
Last Edit: Mar 28, 2006 23:19:09 GMT -5 by keithk1055 - Back to Top
Post by Hipster Doofus on Mar 28, 2006 23:33:26 GMT -5
keithk1055 said:
man deathreaui didnt realize you were form toledo...i lived there for 6 years up until this past summer.... maybe we did meet.... im assuming you gotta be an eastsider based on all these confrontational posts ya been throwin at me.....or maybe a pburg yuppie
on a serious note (fuck the beef)do you listen to smokestack, they rock the village idiot quite frequently and they put on a great show, they played summercamp last year and i think they would be perfect for roo, they are doing a show at the blind pig in ann arbor after hash bash this saturday night...should be a sweet show
Again with the stereotyping!!
haha....actually, you did a pretty good job...I was born in west toledo, but moved to oregon in 5th grade where I lived through high school. Now I'm back on the west side, but my roots are in the east.
Never heard of Smokestack....I do need to start catching more local shows....lately it's just pretty much been 2 day binges for me on the weekend.
i was at airport and reynolds area..i had many of those 2 day binges while i was there, where do ya go to party? we always went to the village idiot, sometimes jeds, its a little too mainstream for me, mtv fucked it up:) i also knew tons of people that worked at various raplhies through out town so we went there alot, id kill for a pound of ralphies chicken chunks right about now...
you know what toledo needs... the old skool party in the park... i miss it from back when it was a big deal every weekend not just the holiday weekends
Last Edit: Mar 29, 2006 0:59:52 GMT -5 by keithk1055 - Back to Top
Post by blueslikehail on Mar 29, 2006 0:47:16 GMT -5
clutch said:
Pete, I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you might be too young to remember a little incident called Vietnam?
that's how you came off as lecturing me. i don't care, i can take it, but it was odd b/c i looked at your profile expecting to see someone in their 40s or 50s b/c that statement and your whole walking me through the vietnam war implied some life experience gleaned from living through that period.
please provide some links or other types of references for the studies on vietnam troop trauma. i'd love to know exactly how billy came back from vietnam just a shadow of a man. i don't doubt that support for the troops makes them and their families feel better. but the fact is, winning or losing wars depends on so much more than that.
the most meaningful factor is the actual conducting of the war. but right wingers are more concerned with defending bush from criticism than actually making sure the administration does things right. you would think they would want something they believe in so much to succeed, but they are more worried about what the media or democrats say.
um, yeah i had a couple bones to pick with your comments obvs. why should i praise you for saying something i feel is wrong? politics is rough and feathers get ruffled. i ain't a wimpy liberal so i don't pull punches or apologize for calling b.s. when i see it even if it hurts someone's feelings. so victim card denied.
no, shoeing you away without a discussion would look like "clutch that is absurd and ridiculous" and that's it. i engaged a number of your points and offered a specific criticism of the military operation. how is that a rant about halliburton or blood for oil?
c'mon clutch. you label me as sounding like the liberals on campus - don't you see you're doing what you accuse me of? no one has to address the substance of their criticism if one can just say 'oh, there's those liberals ranting again.' favorite rhetorical tactic of the right, as i alluded to earlier.
you know, there's a reason us liberals rant about halliburton. recently came out that halliburton overcharged taxpayers by 1.2 billion for oil field work. and that's just one of many instances they've ripped us off. conservatives used to care about the taxpayers' money being wasted. well i freaking care about 1.2 billion of our money going down the drain, and i will rant about it whether a dem. or repub. administration is in charge.
oh yeah, forgot to add that i got love for the ol' northwest ohio too. born and raised in the bowling green area. hung out there more than in toledo. you guys ever been to howard's?
hell ya man!!! ive been thrown out of howards many a time.. when they had those quarter pbr thursdays a buck for a pitcher... that was awesome everyone runnin around drinkin from pitchers like they are a cup...man i love that place... we would get busted smokin in the batroom.. we would have like 12 people in the mens room, half of em chicks and someone would eventually bitch and they would come throw us out for the night.... i love dirty bars with sticky floors and picnic tables they should all be like howards, definetly the best bar in bg imo
Last Edit: Mar 29, 2006 2:18:44 GMT -5 by keithk1055 - Back to Top
Pete, I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you might be too young to remember a little incident called Vietnam?
it was odd b/c i looked at your profile expecting to see someone in their 40s or 50s b/c that statement and your whole walking me through the vietnam war implied some life experience gleaned from living through that period.
i thought the same thing man...someone as young as that should find a different way to challenge other peoples knowledge of vietnammaybe "im guessing you might not be informed about a little incident called vietnam" just a thought... i guess it really dosent make a damn bit of difference except ya sound a litlle silly your way
No but seriously. No one really has a right to complain unless they're willing to do something about what's wrong. Go to a protest, volunteer for an organization that lines up with what you believe, and vote. Discussion is good, but it doesn't really accomplish anything, other than venting your own frustration, which is a good thing sometimes.
Post by Hipster Doofus on Mar 29, 2006 8:31:55 GMT -5
keithk1055 said:
i was at airport and reynolds area..i had many of those 2 day binges while i was there, where do ya go to party? we always went to the village idiot, sometimes jeds, its a little too mainstream for me, mtv fucked it up:) i also knew tons of people that worked at various raplhies through out town so we went there alot, id kill for a pound of ralphies chicken chunks right about now...
you know what toledo needs... the old skool party in the park... i miss it from back when it was a big deal every weekend not just the holiday weekends
There's a Ralphies type place in Oregon that I usually drink at called Mr. Beefy's (it's owned by the same people that own jeds), but usually I just lay low and get F'd up.
You're right about party in the park....there aren't too many things that bring people together in Toledo, but that was always a good one. Dwindling attendance and budget cuts got it though.
I went to bgsu for a little bit, so I know all about Howards....there have been a couple bands come through there that I've been meaning to check out, but I haven't pulled the trigger. Dead Meadow, a damn good "stoner rock" band, was there a few months ago.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 29, 2006 12:20:43 GMT -5
ya man...i love mr beefys bbq beef sandwiches.. i live in the middle of nowhere now..30 minutes to a mcdonalds, im fiendin for all the good food that a town represents....
by the way man... smokestack is playin at mickey finns for 5 bucks on april 15...the night before easter... good way to blow off the family for the evening:) its definelty worth checkin out...theyve got alot of shows on archives.org i have never heard of dead meadow, ill have to check it out
Post by Hipster Doofus on Mar 29, 2006 12:44:08 GMT -5
That's cool....finns is my after work spot when I want to get loaded...I'll have to give Smokestack a listen on archives.
Not sure if Dead Meadow would be for you or not. Heavy guitars, in a Black Sabbath vein, with distorted vocals. They're not one of my favorites or anything, but I wish I would have caught them live.
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 29, 2006 13:20:17 GMT -5
crazy man...i love seeing shows there... it so small in there its loud as hell....i wish i could make that smokestack show but im catchin john butler that night at the blind pig
you ever go to easy street? i used to go in there every now and again...that stadium frickers too...a good friend was a bartender there
man i miss having stuff to do, being out in the boonies is sweet in summer with bonfires and what not but winters blow....
Post by keithk1055 on Mar 29, 2006 13:33:37 GMT -5
damn they changed archives.org, i dont think i like it as much... oh well ill get used to it, i noticed smokestack has some shows form howards, id love to see them there
also if ya go to smokestack.org they have a recent show from the village idiot in maumee, which is my all time favorite bar anywhere, it streams off the website or can download at archives
Last Edit: Mar 29, 2006 13:38:24 GMT -5 by keithk1055 - Back to Top
Post by Hipster Doofus on Mar 29, 2006 13:50:00 GMT -5
I work downtown so I eat lunch at easy street every now and then, and have been there for drinks....Frickers is a decent spot too. Yeah, you take things like that for granted when they're right there. Summer's coming though!
Post by midnighttopher on Mar 29, 2006 16:01:43 GMT -5
"the worst one is the jesus fish.... how the hell did that start?" The funny thing is is that Jesus was born around the beginning of the age of pisces (the zodiac fish) so the fish became his symbol. Jesus's symbol is actually pagan. Makes me laugh.
Post by sparklybecca on Mar 29, 2006 16:30:20 GMT -5
kinda OT but I Loveeee Bill Maher. one of my fave quotes "" if we dont protect the atmosphere, ultra violet radiation will fry us like ants underneath a magnifying glass - i know these kinda facts arent in the bible - but maybe we should think about them. afterall they could affect brad and jen."
Post by Hipster Doofus on Mar 29, 2006 16:33:05 GMT -5
How dare you go off topic in this thread!! ;-)
I haven't heard from Bill Maher in a while....I used to watch his show on ABC (I think) before it got cancelled. He's a little over the top sometimes, but he's funny.
