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I'm a political junkie, I enjoy election time like it's the Superbowl.
I'd like a open and honest political discussion. This means a few things need to happen. So I'm laying down ground rules so that this thread doesn't turn into.
"YOUR AN IDIOT" "No you are."
Cause if it does I won't lock the thread. First offense I send you a PM or call you out in the thread. Second I give you a day in the penalty box. (One day banned) Third is a week. I suggest you not push it past that.
If you disagree with something that's fine just state you disagree and then say why. Be respectful of each other. It's ok to have an opinion it's not ok to put down someone because of theirs. So lets keep it clean.
Maybe I'll throw myself to the dogs, but my back's not to the wall Maybe I'll lay some bricks for the man, but the days just aren't that long So if I settle back and chill will I see far enough to feel the angel's dream? I thought it was the Story of the World!
whatcha wanna talk about?? The fact that we have NO decent candidates at all and that it is going to boil down to voting for the lesser of two evils no matter who gets the nomination from either side because none of the candidate are worth it????? Please if you think I am wrong - explain who you think is a good candidate and why.
To start off I'm not sure if the Dems have a real chance of taking the white house. Even with the current administration screwing the pooch.
Personally I like Obama. I wish he had more time in office, that's going to kill him in the media. I think he has a bunch of great ideas. He seems to generally care about what he does and wants to make a difference. I also don't think the country will elect a black man as president. As sad as it is to say that. Just using the people at work as a soundboard it's not looking good. One of the ladies even said "Do you think if he's elected he'll give away more welfare." I wish I was kidding.
What I don't really understand is why the election hype has started this early. I understand that this country hasn't had a open (no one currently in office running) since the 50s or thereabouts. People are moving the primaries up. It's frickin nuts.
whatcha wanna talk about?? The fact that we have NO decent candidates at all and that it is going to boil down to voting for the lesser of two evils no matter who gets the nomination from either side because none of the candidate are worth it????? Please if you think I am wrong - explain who you think is a good candidate and why.
You should read more about Obama, I just read his book The Audacity to Hope. Great book that explains a lot. He is on Letterman tonight.
Post by ziggyandthemonkeys on Apr 9, 2007 20:44:55 GMT -5
Obama seems real genuine to me, which is almost enough to get my vote in itself, since hes about the only one. I agree that even after the current debocle that are republicans they may still retain office, although only due to a weak field of democratic canidates. A woman, a black guy, and that one guy.... ;D I just hope McCain doesnt win, that guy has totally lost it, im not too worried about that though. I think if Obama was white, he'd win, but unfortunatly he's not. While i lean towards democrats, i would be deeply disapointed if Hilary Clinton won.
Post by spookymonster on Apr 9, 2007 21:06:57 GMT -5
I like Obama, I think he's more than just a pretty face, but I don't think this country's ready. And Hillary's just a political machine. The only perk to having her win would be getting Bill back in the house, albeit in his robe and bunny slippers.
I'm hoping Gore steps up and acts like a man. F*ck charisma; give me rational thinking!
Post by MickStPeter on Apr 9, 2007 21:09:20 GMT -5
Oh Karma for posting this thread... I really hope younger democrats get out there and push for Obama this election... All of you are right the candidates are not really that strong as far as their political appeal... But personally I feel with Obama being a little "less experienced" Its a good thing... He isn't so jaded as the rest he still holds a bit of optimism
And as far as Clinton goes... I'm sorry but if a woman can put up with that from her husband what else will she put up with... she isn't exactly the type of woman you want in a position of superiority
Post by ziggyandthemonkeys on Apr 9, 2007 21:20:13 GMT -5
spookymonster said:
I like Obama, I think he's more than just a pretty face, but I don't think this country's ready. And Hillary's just a political machine. The only perk to having her win would be getting Bill back in the house, albeit in his robe and bunny slippers.
I'm hoping Gore steps up and acts like a man. F*ck charisma; give me rational thinking!
I actually think Gore losing the first time was a good thing if he ran. I think he gained some humility, and opened up a little, and i find him much more charismatic now then when he ran. I think if he was this popular then, he would've won easily. I also think if he jumped in now, he'd win easily this time. Its weird how hugely popular he has gotten since An Inconvenient Truth.
Clinton flip on the War on Irag. Plus do you realize if she wins we would have almot 30 straight years of a Clinton or Bush in the White House. At the end of this it would have been 20 years of Bush or Clinton. Obama isn't part of a big political machine. He has more money raised from individual voters then anyother candidate. I think a good balance for a ticket would be Obama and Bayh. Gore isn't totaly out of question either. Plus he has won one presidential election already. As far as Republicans I don't think McCain can win, Romney, Guiliani, and Gingrech can not get the base christian support but there is Gov Huckabee of Arkansas he used to be a baptist minister, very popular in Arkansas and gets along with the Clintons.
I think america is ready for Obama, even if many people who say they like him but don't think america is ready. I seen him speak, I have read his books. This guy is genuine, likable and has the aura about him that is amazing. My uncle has many problems with race. He refused to come to my wedding when I married my beautiful african-american wife but says that he likes obama. H. Clinton has many things I agree with her on. It may be wrong in thinking this but I have a problem with 30 years of only two families running the country.
i think america is ready for obama as well, i'm leaning towards him at the moment, but my mind is never made up until about a week or so before the election....
"White collar conservative flashin down the street, pointing that plastic finger at me, they all assume my kind will drop and die, but I'm gonna wave my freak flag high." Jimi Hendrix
i like Obama....in 4 years. i know his lack of experience has been played up a bit, but i do think it's a legitimate concern. a president needs to build his leadership team and establish rapport/tone of the administration, much like a CEO. leadership experience is a must. i would like to see him as vp on a ticket, but i'm not sure who with. in 4 years, he'll most likely have my vote. i kind of agree with Megan & Boz....just don't see any really compelling candidates.
Post by ziggyandthemonkeys on Apr 9, 2007 21:49:47 GMT -5
We'll they dont let just any schmo be the keynote speaker at the democratic national convention. I personally think he's ready, and also got a taste of handling a lot of attention when elected to the senate, but i think its a legitimate concern people will have about him. And im not bombarding this thread for the night. ;D
I'd love to see a Gore/Obama ticket. I think Gore could has a real shot at this election. He went from having the personality of a wall to essentially being a rock star since the last election. Gore's got some momentum, and Barack is a pretty smart and motivated individual. If Hillary runs, the GOP will be back in the white house IMO.
i'll be more interested once the election gets closer.
Post by oatmealschnappz on Apr 10, 2007 0:06:23 GMT -5
While I do really like him, I don't think that Obama has a chance. As sad as it is, mainstream America will not elect an African American whose middle name is Hussein. I hate it but, it's true. Democrats/liberals really need to get their heads out of the clouds this time around. It's their unbridled idealism that, in part, has brought us to this disgusting, discouraging and dismal chapter in American history. Without people throwing their votes away, pointlessly supporting unelectable "revolutionaries" like Ralph Nader, Bush and his henchmen wouldn't have been able to steal the presidency. If the thousands of Nader supporters had cast their votes for Gore, things would be very different. It's truly revolting but, let's face it, third party candidates can't win. They should be able to but, it's just not possible right now. We have to back someone that actually has a fighting chance of winning this time. It doesn't matter who the eventual nominee is, we desperately need to support them. If the GOP wins again, I fear it will usher in an era of "Democrats are losers that obviously have no cohesive plan" ideology. An era that could destroy our already fragile country. We have to support the candidate that can win, no matter what. It doesn't matter if they're your first choice, or if you see precisely eye-to-eye with them. THEY WILL BE BETTER THAN THE ALTERNATIVE!
As repugnant as it may be, if we don't learn to play the game, we will surely lose!
Please vote with your mind and not your heart in 2008! We can't afford to lose again!
Last Edit: Apr 10, 2007 1:18:57 GMT -5 by oatmealschnappz - Back to Top
In an ideal world, i would vote for Dennis Kucinich. In a real word, choosing someone who has a chance of being elected, I would go for Gore, he has no major skeletons in his closet, he has a lot of experience with presidential elections, he is more popular now than he has been since he was Vice President. Most importantly, he is very intelligent.
Ok. So, it's been said that Obama won't win because, a) America won't vote for, "a black guy" and b) because his middle name is Hussein. The people that won't vote for him because of these reasons, wouldn't vote Democrat anyway. It's my belief that it's generally the Bush supporter types that would discredit and/or not vote for a candidate based on a name or skin color. Also keep in mind, that the states where these people are in the majority are "red" states, so that states' electoral votes , wouldn't go to a Democrat anyway, whether his name is Hussein, Jefferson, or Fitzgerald. Thats just my logic.
Post by oatmealschnappz on Apr 10, 2007 1:41:55 GMT -5
^ Very true but, in recent elections, moderates and "swing" votes have seemed to make all the difference. To win the presidency, in current-day America, you have to appeal to the undecided "middle" more than your proven base. It would take a Democrat at a Klan rally to sway the hardcore left....and a Republican participating in a same-sex marriage to sway the devoted right. It's all about the middle. The undecided. The presuade-able "majority". That is why I say/think the way I do. I would love it if Obama were elected but, I just don't think it will happen. At least not yet. If Obama gets the nomination, without question, I will vote for him! But it's the same with Clinton, Gore, Edwards, or anyone else. I believe that our only realistic chance is to completely support wichever electable candidate eventually gets the nomination. Love it or hate it, unless Clinton justs fumbles the ball, she will be the candidate. She's somewhat of a "legacy" (people love Washinton insiders, no matter what they say in polls), she is a money-raising machine, she's recognizable (wich is terribly important with "on the fencers"), She has the most charismatic politician ever in her corner, and she's just plain smart! No, she is not my ideal choice but, she is the most viable at this point. If someone else gets the nomination, I will rabidly support them. But she is the most likely candidate, at this point. Despite all of her (many)downfalls, she will be better for us as a country (and world) than Guilliani!
That's all I'm trying to say. Love them or not, we have to support the candidate that can actually win!
IMAGINE THE ALTERNATIVE!
Last Edit: Apr 10, 2007 1:46:34 GMT -5 by oatmealschnappz - Back to Top
Republicans are tied to Bush and the war and can't win. Guliani and McCain are not conservatives and so can't win the primaries and if they do, can't energize the base to win the general election. Fred Thompson has a chance as Reps love actors (though ironically hate Hollywood.) Fred has always voted the Party line and not stood up for anything when in the Senate so there will be little ammo to use against him.
As for Dems, there is a fight for the soul of the Party. The grassroots is energized and donating a lot of money but the establishment (big money/consultants) is determined to hold power (ex. Lamont vs Lieberman in CT). Hillary(establishment) will raise tons of money but has abandoned the base and flip/flopped on the war. She will try and win by raising the most $$$ and buying the nomination. Her 40% negative rating make it questionable if she can win the general against a decent opponent. The base is looking for someone else.
Obama is still an unknown. He may be charismatic enough to pull it off as this is just the right type of election but the Rep attack machine has yet to start really tearing him down. He's still a BIG question mark. His support is still a little soft.
This has left an opening for Edwards. Edwards is a well known candidate, has spoken consistently for universal health care and workers rights and for reigning in the corporates. He was the first to apologize for his war vote. His supporters are dedicated and his third place has kept the media and Reps from early attacks. He has the lead in Iowa and is a close second in NH. This year at least 28 states will have voted by Feb 5 so the winner of IA and NH is probably set to win.
Right now, I'd say it's Edwards vs Thompson with Edwards winning a tight race. But 18 months out, anything can happen.
All of this discussion about who is "electable" plays into the hands of the two major parties. When you realize the power these 2 groups have garnered, the next obvious question one must ask her/himself--"Do they have anything to gain from this ?" I think that was answered in a previous post re; thirty years in office by the Bush/Clinton regimes. Now I'm not saying they are as close as bedfellows, but the two parties Have come together to squash third party threats. That's why Nader was not allowed at the debates in 2000> It was a joint decision by the two party system to keep a viable 3rd party candidate out of the race AND out of the media. Conversely, Perot was allowed to debate in years prior solely because he and General MickeyMouse would make a fine "example" of why you wanna keep it with either of the two "electable" parties.
Please Please Please-when you consider who you will vote for, especially in the primaries, consider the candidate who most represents YOU. Otherwise you only fall victim to the manipulation of the indoctrined power structure. Any conjecture about who is electable should be left to the junior press. It only eliminates real choice.
Imagine all of the $ it takes to trollops around the country for 18 months buying tv commercials, sponsoring rallies etc. Much of that money comes from federally matched funds and ONLY goes to the major party candidates. That means we will NEVER elect someone who truly represents the poor and downtrodden. I'm not saying being principled enough to vote for who you believe will win your candidate THIS election. I'm saying it will promote democracy down the line by showing the pundits that you're not going to lie down and accept the lesser of two evils. If you are a major party candidate, you are a greasing point for lobbyists. Keep in mind that the years Bill Clinton won, he was given more money by groups like the NRA, FOP, Defense contractors, etc than the Republicans were. It's an oddsmaker's game, and lobbyists sleep with the bookies. They're not gonna throw their money behind principle, and they count on you doing the same with your vote. Let's make this more than a popularity contest. It's not marginalizing your vote, it's demonstrating that you won't be manipulated by fear of losing to a more powerful(rich/bought and sold) candidate. All of this abandonment of principle, and leaning towards the middle, only benifits the status quo, the engrained power structure, the big businesses who have their cuffs around just about every major candidates' wallets.
All of that having been ranted, I will be putting my primary vote behind Dennis Kucinich- former boy mayer from Cleveland. You will hear the major press call him an "elf", "peacenik", "unelectable", etc. You will hear about how he looks and how unprepared he would be given another terrorist attack, etc. etc. etc. All that means is that he is a few more steps beyond the control of the lobbyists and the party power bosses. I'll have to lie and reregister as a democrat to do so for the primary, because the structure does not allow you to vote in the primary election if you are a registered independent(another way they keep our vote suppressed-who says an independent can't support a rep. or dem. once in awhile?)
I'll probably vote libertarian in the presidential election. And for those of you who say that will help get us another "Bush-like President" in office, I'll answer with a question: Who ? Hillary Clinton ?
Last Edit: Apr 10, 2007 9:23:41 GMT -5 by oatmealschnappz - Back to Top
Without people throwing their votes away, pointlessly supporting unelectable "revolutionaries" like Ralph Nader, Bush and his henchmen wouldn't have been able to steal the presidency. If the thousands of Nader supporters had cast their votes for Gore, things would be very different. It's truly revolting but, let's face it, third party candidates can't win. They should be able to but, it's just not possible right now. We have to back someone that actually has a fighting chance of winning this time. It doesn't matter who the eventual nominee is, we desperately need to support them. Please vote with your mind and not your heart in 2008! We can't afford to lose again!
How does repeating how unelectable someone is help to make them more electable ? When I voted for Nader in 2000, I thought that my vote would help him reach 5% in my state, thus qualifying the green party to get federally matching funds which would help them put up a stronger fight in 2004.
If we keep giving up our principles to get the lesser of two evils elected, we will never make any progress. My mind and heart tell me that baby steps are better than no steps. Perceptually, it would seem as though my vote helped take us two steps backward. But have you checked the bank accounts of progressive groups since Bush's "elections". That war chest will be silenced if there is a move amongst true progressives(like i know you are Oatey) to only vote for "electable" candidates" . I'm going to have to look and see if Microsoft, Fox, Turner, Halliburton, KBR, Pelosi, Rove, and companies have the term "electable" trademarked.
Last Edit: Apr 10, 2007 9:26:02 GMT -5 by oatmealschnappz - Back to Top
Unfortunatly, he wont win.
