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She's likely done but I don't want to give her (and her SD's) any incentive to stick around and continue tearing apart the Party. If she gets 3 wins tonight, I'd not be surprised if we go on to PA before we quit doing the Reps work for them.
And who knows. Momentum is a strange animal. Just ask McCain. If she wins TX, OH, PA, I guarantee a lot of SD's will say she can win the big states so let's stick with her.
If anyone can pull this out, it's a Clinton.
Last Edit: Mar 4, 2008 23:07:02 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
Well, it looks like the Dems are bound and determined to try and lose this election. IMHO, we are on the cusp of irrepairably dividing the Party. With Clinton's wins last night, I see no way we don't keep the race going into June and having revotes in FL and MI.
Watching the coverage this AM, all the "experts" are saying that Obama must fight harder; translation, go more negative. I'm very afraid it is going to get so bad that the Dems will not be able to pull back together and the losers voters will go to McCain. The Dems seem bound and determined to weaken themselves and waste $$$ while the Reps coalesce and raise lots of $$$.
I may be delusoonal but I think the back to back SNL sketches really hurt Obama. They were highly publicized in the press and made people feel like Clinton was being mistreated and Obama was an untested, media prop.
I now think whoever wins PA will have the lead (in the SD's mind)and will be the person to beat. Now it get really nasty and divisive.
And McCain gets to play the adult and the nice guy.
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 5, 2008 8:41:54 GMT -5
Funny(not really at all) that when the DEMS quack up, evreyone expects those who will bail to move further to the right.(and support McCain)
How about finally admitting that is what is fowling the party. They don't stand for anything. They just wanna win. So they define themselves as closely as they can to the party that's always winning. Yet, that makes them MORE beatable.
People are such sheep. SOOOOOOOOOOO AFRAID. When will they realize that by listening to the corporate media and moving closer to the "center", they are alienating more of their base ?
The right trumpets that the dems stand for nothing. The press say Obama's gonna have to be more negative, which will , in turn, turn people away from the party.
Then all you people begrudgingly do what they say while wondering who will stand up for that in which you believe.
Perhaps the dems could sharpen their skills if more people jumped off the correct side of the platform.
But why sharpen skills ? They just raised 85 million in one month during a recession. This is a victory to the party old boyz.
Ran out of ballots in Cuyahoga county.... .... .... what a joke ? AGAIN
Last Edit: Mar 5, 2008 8:44:01 GMT -5 by koyaanisqatsi - Back to Top
Can't disagree^^ But as long as corporate $$$ controls the process, candidates will always move toward them when in doubt. Hillary has made a career out of always going corporate.
But this year the real problem is that McCain is seen as a moderate candidate, not a conservative. This will make it VERY easy for disillusioned Dems to vote for him.
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 5, 2008 9:04:29 GMT -5
So it's a corporate molded single party system that offers candidates that come off moderates so we can "bring the country together, heal, etc". Meanwhile we are duped into pulling levers for these corporate shills, thinking we are effecting change, while really only consumating the whole thing. And we do this by standing in line an voting for "electable" candidates.
Meanwhile, people who have made careers out of digging deeper, asking the tough questions, fighting for the little guy, are punished by the media's contrived absence, or labeled as unelectable, with ALL of the time allowed focused on how hot their wife is,etc, ad nauseum.
Consumer culture has made this a nation filled with fear. The malnourished die FAT, the loser dems raise 85 million in one of the worst economic months on record in the past 30 years, and people who bail the party vote Republican.
It is a very quacked up world. Fear has been used to tease up unaccountability. And Democrats are pointing fingers at third parties AGAIN !!
Meanwhile, the black people in Cleveland are waitin' in line in the rain for a ballot that was NEVER THERE.
Please rent and watch AMERICAN BLACKOUT. Featuring former Georgia Democratic Rep. Cynthia McKinney, Green Party candidate for President, it is well worth your time and my patriotism.
Last Edit: Mar 5, 2008 9:08:31 GMT -5 by koyaanisqatsi - Back to Top
I hoped today would be the end. Instead it's just the beginning, most likely, of the end.....of the democrats chances......to win in November. My hope has lost it's audacity.
I hoped today would be the end. Instead it's just the beginning, most likely, of the end.....of the democrats chances......to win in November. My hope has lost it's audacity.
Is it really anyones fault though? You could say its the voters across the country that are all split down the middle, or you could say its the canidates fault that they both have such a huge following. If the democrats lose in November, in my opinion, it will not be for bad reasons, it wont be Hillary's fault, or Obama's (even though i think he should even had entered the race). If it happens, im going to look at it as if these two canidates were too good to win, and thats how McCain might win by default.
I hoped today would be the end. Instead it's just the beginning, most likely, of the end.....of the democrats chances......to win in November. My hope has lost it's audacity.
Is it really anyones fault though? You could say its the voters across the country that are all split down the middle, or you could say its the canidates fault that they both have such a huge following. If the democrats lose in November, in my opinion, it will not be for bad reasons, it wont be Hillary's fault, or Obama's (even though i think he should even had entered the race). If it happens, im going to look at it as if these two canidates were too good to win, and thats how McCain might win by default.
I'm thinking Obama looked past Ohio and Texas too quickly, to the nomination. He took a Clinton's desire for power, for granted. So yeah, I blame Obama for not sealing the deal. I really thought he was a seal dealer.
I agree 100% that there is no bad guy in this bad scenario. I also agree the negativity will increase and the odds of winning in Nov will decrease. But Nov is a loong way away and anything can happen. Think of this. Iowa was about 8 weeks ago and so much has changed. PA is 7 weeks ahead, who knows what will happen.
I see the most likely winning scenario available now being Hillary getting the nomination and choosing Obama as VP. Hopefully most of the Obama faithful will still stick around and the Dems will win.
Not the scenario I'd choose first but...
Still, in this race, who can say for sure.
Last Edit: Mar 5, 2008 16:30:43 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
Post by famousblueraincoat on Mar 5, 2008 16:41:49 GMT -5
I think that we are gong to the convention, Obama will get the nomination (as the math doesn't lie), and Hillary supporters will go crazy and vote for McCain. This will unfortunately have a huge detrimental effect on Barack's political career when we lose the election.
What sucks is that we could have avoided this, and I don't want to sound single minded, but I do blame Hillary. I think that a candidate with common sense sees that this is not an election she can win, and GRACEFULLY bows out for the good of her party. She's stringing along voters and her candidacy (not her as a person) is creating division in the party. There is no reason that either of these candidates individually should not have won the general, but the longer they are both in it, the less likely it is that either of them WILL win.
I think that we are gong to the convention, Obama will get the nomination (as the math doesn't lie), and Hillary supporters will go crazy and vote for McCain. This will unfortunately have a huge detrimental effect on Barack's political career when we lose the election.
What sucks is that we could have avoided this, and I don't want to sound single minded, but I do blame Hillary. I think that a candidate with common sense sees that this is not an election she can win, and GRACEFULLY bows out for the good of her party. She's stringing along voters and her candidacy (not her as a person) is creating division in the party. There is no reason that either of these candidates individually should not have won the general, but the longer they are both in it, the less likely it is that either of them WILL win.
Well said. Just for the record, yet again, I am a Obama supporter and I will not, under any circumstaces vote for Hillary. I won't vote for McCain either though, even though the thought crossed my mind at one point.
I don't agree with the "math doesn't lie" statement. There is no set math in the Dem Party, only Super delegates. If it's close and Hillary wins PA and the revotes in FL and MI, she will be the nominee.
And though I like Obama, there is no way Hillary should have dropped out. She is playing by the rule we have and it is VERY close. And if Obama can't take Hillary's heat, I have doubts about him surviving the Rep heat in Nov.
If she had lost either TX or OH last night, you'd have a point but Obama has not put this away so she cannot be asked to leave any more than he can be.
Last Edit: Mar 5, 2008 17:08:43 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
Post by famousblueraincoat on Mar 5, 2008 17:26:03 GMT -5
Respectfully, there's a 150 delegate margin that even with the Florida votes she has now (Howard Dean has said outright that they will not "re-do" Florida and Michigan), she can not overcome unless she wins the rest of the races by a margin of something in the ballpark of 60-40. There's healthy competition, and then there's unreal expectations. Also, it'd be one thing if she was in the race and was debating the issues and that's it, but most of what we've seen from her over the past week have been outright character attacks on the likely Democratic candidate. It's not that Barack can't take Hillary's heat, it's that you're not supposed to undergo this kind of scrutiny from your own party, and, frankly, the in-fighting is making the Democratic party look substantially less focused than the Republicans.
I think you absolutely have to undergo this type of scrutiny from your own party so all skeletons and flip-flops and swift boats can be found out before the general. The point is to have your strongest candidate on the ballot in November. If it's all happiness and sunshine, that's not going to happen.
which, by the way, could be a big problem for the Republicans in the fall. All of McCain's faults haven't been brought out yet.
And you know, if Hillary could come back from all of her negative press and everyone thinking she's such a b!tch and win Ohio and Texas, that's saying something huge. Maybe she wouldn't be at such a disadvantage against McCain. Maybe Obama would.
I still think Hillary will motivate Reps and have a harder time winning in Nov.
But once again the pledged delegates don't decide the election alone. If they did than Obama would be the almost undisputed winner. But the Dems have uncommitted Super delegates and they are a factor. I don't like it either but that's the way it is.
As long as the race is very close and Hillary can claim a legitimate argument for SD support (such as people are changing their minds as the find out more about Obama, or Obama is not doing so well against McCain anymore) she has a legitimate claim to the nomination.
Once again, I like Obama better than Hillary and I think SD's are not such a great idea but that's the system and one doesn't change it midstream (anymore than we now change to allow existing the FL and MI results) I also think ithis long fight is harmful to the party but for the SD's to side with either candidate right now would totally alienate the other and guarantee a Nov loss.
I see no good outcome but we are where we are and can only hope something happens to remedy the hurt feelings. I wish Obama had done better last night and this would be over but it isn't and so on we go.
Post by famousblueraincoat on Mar 5, 2008 18:11:25 GMT -5
I don't disagree with either of your observations, but I think there are multiple ways to look at the impact. With that said, I do believe that if the superdelegates decide this election, we have seen the end of the Democratic party as we know it. Not to be a "take my ball and go home" kind of guy, but I would abandon the party as would a large number of the young supporters who have stood behind Barack Obama for months if the superdelegates decided to snub the will of the states. It would indicate that all of our time and all of our effort and all of our investments were upended as the result of a good number of political favors. I don't know who I'd vote for if that were the case. Not McCain, but maybe not Hillary either. Like I said, I can't support a party that claims to be about the people, but then ignores the will of the large majority of its constituents. I can already hear the responses: "Them's the rules and we all have to follow them," but the fact is I would be pissed if it happened to Barack, and I would be equally pissed if it happened to Hillary.