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Second, Aquariumdrunk - who the f*ck are you? I think it'd be good to introduce yourself to the throngs of inforoo members and lurkers who haven't the slightest clue who you are. Your insinuation that this is about anything other than wanting a child rapist off the board is insulting. I know you won't care about insulting one of those "trolls," but it's insulting nonetheless. As has been pointed out, this isn't being leveraged against unbanning the Capp Dogg account. In fact, Dave (resident good guy and the furthest thing from a troll) was the first person to mention it in the discussion. Probably because it is absolute f*cking insanity that a duplicate account is banned not to ruffle a few feathers while housing child rapists is on the up-and-up.
Nice to meet you. I've been posting since 2004 and moderating since 2008 (?) or so. For some of us, post count isn't a contest, but congratulations on having something to say about every single thing that happens on the board. I'm really looking forward to seeing where your participation level is at after a decade on this board.
This is exactly the kind of sh*t I am talking about. Was Flanz out of line in the way that he put out his point? Yes, definitely. There's no reason to come back with more snark and completely ignore the point that he was trying to make. You have been a mod for a long time and a board member for longer, but you haven't been posting as much recently, so people do not know you as well. If you are going to be a part of a conversation and come in dropping bombs like you have been in this one, there's going to have to be more familiarity if you don't want some blowback. If druid, cks, gibran or itm sent me a PM right now telling me to shut up and stay out of it, I would do so without hesitation or question because I know them personally and have seen them around a ton. Whereas you have been around, many current posters probably don't know you as well, so you are not going to get the same response.
Nice to meet you. I've been posting since 2004 and moderating since 2008 (?) or so. For some of us, post count isn't a contest, but congratulations on having something to say about every single thing that happens on the board. I'm really looking forward to seeing where your participation level is at after a decade on this board.
This is exactly the kind of sh*t I am talking about. Was Flanz out of line in the way that he put out his point? Yes, definitely. There's no reason to come back with more snark and completely ignore the point that he was trying to make. You have been a mod for a long time and a board member for longer, but you haven't been posting as much recently, so people do not know you as well. If you are going to be a part of a conversation and come in dropping bombs like you have been in this one, there's going to have to be more familiarity if you don't want some blowback. If druid, cks, gibran or itm sent me a PM right now telling me to shut up and stay out of it, I would do so without hesitation or question because I know them personally and have seen them around a ton. Whereas you have been around, many current posters probably don't know you as well, so you are not going to get the same response.
So me deciding to speak up when we're being accused of harboring a child rapist is bizarre to you? You really thought there wouldn't be a bigger response than normal? I don't post that much anymore. Somehow I'm no longer allowed to defend myself or enter into a conversation? If this were about one of the countless other ridiculous troll issues - the ones that stem from the holier than though contingent posting in this thread - I probably wouldn't have said anything. And did anyone ask you to shut up or stay out? Opinions are what we're looking for.
This is exactly the kind of sh*t I am talking about. Was Flanz out of line in the way that he put out his point? Yes, definitely. There's no reason to come back with more snark and completely ignore the point that he was trying to make. You have been a mod for a long time and a board member for longer, but you haven't been posting as much recently, so people do not know you as well. If you are going to be a part of a conversation and come in dropping bombs like you have been in this one, there's going to have to be more familiarity if you don't want some blowback. If druid, cks, gibran or itm sent me a PM right now telling me to shut up and stay out of it, I would do so without hesitation or question because I know them personally and have seen them around a ton. Whereas you have been around, many current posters probably don't know you as well, so you are not going to get the same response.
So me deciding to speak up when we're being accused of harboring a child rapist is bizarre to you? You really thought there wouldn't be a bigger response than normal? I don't post that much anymore. Somehow that disallows me to defend myself or enter into a conversation? If this were about one of the countless other ridiculous troll issues - the ones that stem from the holier than though contingent posting in this thread - I probably wouldn't have said anything. And did anyone ask you to shut up or stay out? Opinions are what we're looking for.
The issue I was speaking to has nothing to do with your message. It has to do with how you put it out there.
So me deciding to speak up when we're being accused of harboring a child rapist is bizarre to you? You really thought there wouldn't be a bigger response than normal? I don't post that much anymore. Somehow that disallows me to defend myself or enter into a conversation? If this were about one of the countless other ridiculous troll issues - the ones that stem from the holier than though contingent posting in this thread - I probably wouldn't have said anything. And did anyone ask you to shut up or stay out? Opinions are what we're looking for.
The issue I was speaking to has nothing to do with your message. It has to do with how you put it out there.
I guess I get a little defensive when it comes to stuff like this. Are you surprised by that, man? There are a handful of people who create the vast majority of issues on this board. Suddenly, those trolls are rebranding themselves as the moral authority and calling us child prostitute fu*king apologists. I might not be as cool/calm/collected as others.
The issue I was speaking to has nothing to do with your message. It has to do with how you put it out there.
I guess I get a little defensive when it comes to stuff like this. Are you surprised by that, man? There are a handful of people who create the vast majority of issues on this board. Suddenly, those trolls are rebranding themselves as the moral authority and calling us child prostitute fu*king apologists. I might not be as cool/calm/collected as others.
I can totally understand the anger/frustration/etc. associated with the issue. I can also understand how certain people have set up a history that negatively affects anything they say on the board. It's just that, at times where there is a lot of tension, that defensiveness can make the issue worse when it doesn't need to be. Unfortunately, as a mod (or as more visible member in my case), I don't think we get the luxury of saying exactly what we want to say when we want to say it. We're kind of held to a higher standard because of our positions. Pops told me once that he sometimes plays a game where he guesses when I am really pissed off in my posts. He told me that I never get out of line, but you can tell when I want to say much more. I just cut it off because I want to help things go forward as best as possible.
I guess I get a little defensive when it comes to stuff like this. Are you surprised by that, man? There are a handful of people who create the vast majority of issues on this board. Suddenly, those trolls are rebranding themselves as the moral authority and calling us child prostitute fu*king apologists. I might not be as cool/calm/collected as others.
I can totally understand the anger/frustration/etc. associated with the issue. I can also understand how certain people have set up a history that negatively affects anything they say on the board. It's just that, at times where there is a lot of tension, that defensiveness can make the issue worse when it doesn't need to be. Unfortunately, as a mod (or as more visible member in my case), I don't think we get the luxury of saying exactly what we want to say when we want to say it. We're kind of held to a higher standard because of our positions. Pops told me once that he sometimes plays a game where he guesses when I am really pissed off in my posts. He told me that I never get out of line, but you can tell when I want to say much more. I just cut it off because I want to help things go forward as best as possible.
If the name calling from trolls hadn't started, I probably wouldn't have chimed in. As heinous as CR's posts were (on another board), the accusations here were almost as bad. Saying we're "harboring a pedophile" or making excuses for a rapist is fu*king nuts. Lines were crossed, but I don't think I was the one crossing them. I tend to avoid these stupid back and forth situations, because honestly - it's just exhausting. I'm sorry my snark sneaks out at times. I don't think it's excessive in the context of the conversation.
This is a message board. I feel like, being a message board, he poses no threat to any underage girls on here (If he is actually a threat, in any way). He has actually caused less trouble than a lot of others around here,
In my past I have done things that would have brought felony charges. I was not caught, I faced no punishment. I am not exactly proud of my past life but I am not exactly repentant either. And I certainly would not be to people on the internet I have never met, if I was dumb enough to give those accounts on a message board. Do you want to ban me now?
I have friends from High School that did some horrible things all those years ago. Some served lengthy jail terms. For the past 15-20 years they have turned themselves into pretty good people. If they would have continued on that path I would not have remained friends, but they did not. Nor did I.
As has been pointed out, this isn't being leveraged against unbanning the Capp Dogg account. In fact, Dave (resident good guy and the furthest thing from a troll) was the first person to mention it in the discussion.
I am not really sure how the two got folded together myself. I think they are separate issues altogether that really have nothing to do with each other aside from that they involve the same cast of characters.
I really only weighed in on the Ron discussion when Druid asked for my opinion via PM (short version: ban him) largely because, like wannaberoo'ing, some of what has been going on in this thread makes me want to stay as far the f*ck away from this discussion as possible. I really wish that this board could have discussions on the regular that didn't devolve into bullsh*t. I know for a fact that some people (myself included usually) avoid discussions like this because of it. Their voices get silenced because some can't form and express their thoughts in an appropriate manner, and that is a shame. It also makes me wonder how many newer people shy away from really joining the community because they get the impression that that is how this board operates.
I think it might be time to drop the pretense and leave Ron out of this, because he's clearly just a proxy for airing some personal grievances.
I think part of the reason these thing always devolve into shouting matches is because we don't discuss them enough. Hell, Zapp's initial posts on the subject seemed to be along that point "Why was a thread discussing what Ron did locked?" Also, his post about banning Ron struck me as largely hypothetical, rather than a lynch mob. Most of the people posting on this have been involved in a ban one way or another, Capp Dogg, emoney, Flanz v Sproat, me v Iamarob. For the reasons I mentioned before, I'm not terribly hot and bothered by this debate, but I can certainly see why others who have been banned before would get upset about some of the back and forth in here.
Anyway, I think the real issue is the (apparent?) lack of established guidelines for banning people. If mods want this to be completely in their sole discretion, it's 100% ok with me because this is their forum. If that's the case I'd ask they just be honest with everyone about it.
If that's not the case and what are the guidelines?
1. Does the inforoo community at large get a say? Should community involvement be limited to flagging specific problem posts? Was my poll about banning Rob completely over the line, sorta over the line, or useful input? If I had it to do over again I would have handled the Rob thing differently, but I was really pissed at the guy. Clearly the way I handled Rob and the word filter poll have created some resentment, but I wish people had expressed that to me directly.
2. Can you only be banned for activity disruptive to Inforoo or its members? Is off board activity, no matter how heinous, a line that's going to be drawn in the sand?
I can accept whatever the answers are to those question, I'd just like them to be clear.
Two things I feel strongly about with regard to banning:
1. People who DOX others should catch an immediate suspension or ban. If someone were to post Ron's contact information that's where this perceived lynch mob would become a real one.
2. If someone is banned, I think the who and why need to be clearly stated somewhere.
I think it might be time to drop the pretense and leave Ron out of this, because he's clearly just a proxy for airing some personal grievances.
I suspect you're gonna get a lot of shiz for that statement. I've thoughtfully and dispassionately read every post over the past so many pages since this started and unfortunately I think you pretty much nailed it. It seems to me we've veered off course from discussing if it's appropriate to ban someone to shizting on the mods with hyperbole along the lines of "If you don't ban him NOW then you agree with child sex tourism." That just seems like so much derp to me. And it's not helpful in moving the conversation forward.
I think it might be time to drop the pretense and leave Ron out of this, because he's clearly just a proxy for airing some personal grievances.
I suspect you're gonna get a lot of shiz for that statement. I've thoughtfully and dispassionately read every post over the past so many pages since this started and unfortunately I think you pretty much nailed it. It seems to me we've veered off course from discussing if it's appropriate to ban someone to shizting on the mods with hyperbole along the lines of "If you don't ban him NOW then you agree with child sex tourism." That just seems like so much derp to me. And it's not helpful in moving the conversation forward.
I think the inappropriate comments have been aimed both ways, but yeah.
Nice to meet you. I've been posting since 2004 and moderating since 2008 (?) or so. For some of us, post count isn't a contest, but congratulations on having something to say about every single thing that happens on the board. I'm really looking forward to seeing where your participation level is at after a decade on this board. If we weren't knee deep in trolling, from folks like yourself, active posting might seem more appealing.
I didn't know calling for the banning of a sex predator is considered trolling.
So not only are we tacitly endorsing sex with child prostitutes, but we're petty to boot?! Come on, Flanzo. Please, go ahead and tell me more about the troll account crusade and how it has nothing to do with this.
I think banning an account whose real owner alerted the mods to its presence and whose posts wouldn't get the actual member banned if he posted them under his own name is petty. That has nothing to do with thinking banning a sexual predator is a good idea, though. The fact that the account was banned for months and besides a few innocent comments here and there was never really griped about should be proof enough that it is in no way, shape or form about that. Stop trying to paint a picture of selfishness so you can dismiss the entire discussion, it's childish. I will not have this turn into a personal argument with someone I've never had a problem with before, please go back to explaining why banning Ron is not cut-and-dry (if that's your stance), but it shouldn't have anything to do with me, or duplicate accounts.
So not only are we tacitly endorsing sex with child prostitutes, but we're petty to boot?! Come on, Flanzo. Please, go ahead and tell me more about the troll account crusade and how it has nothing to do with this.
Cows Eye: I think banning an account whose real owner alerted the mods to its presence and whose posts wouldn't get the actual member banned if he posted them under his own name is petty. That has nothing to do with thinking banning a sexual predator is a good idea, though. The fact that the account was banned for months and besides a few innocent comments here and there was never really griped about should be proof enough that it is in no way, shape or form about that. Stop trying to paint a picture of selfishness so you can dismiss the entire discussion, it's childish. I will not have this turn into a personal argument with someone I've never had a problem with before, please go back to explaining why banning Ron is not cut-and-dry (if that's your stance), but it shouldn't have anything to do with me, or duplicate accounts.
I found the PM I sent to Chareth concerning the Capp Dog account. Yes, we reluctantly agreed to the Capp Dog idea.It was fun and light for a small amount of time. Then we felt like it crossed a line, as we had feared from the beginning. We have more than enough to keep an eye on around here. So we politely asked him to stop posting under the Capp Dog name. Really really simple. We made a judgement call. We can rehash and pick it apart all you would like. But the fact is, the account is not coming back.
it is easy to forget the mods are regular people with real jobs, families, dogs, etc. i know that a lot of these issues weigh heavy on them even after they sign off and i know that is hard. i do not believe they are in charge of regulating things that did not happen in association with the board. if he said this in chat or on the facebook page or something like that, then it would be different IMO.
last year we had a long-time regular poster do something inexcusable in real life to another board member. several of us let him know how f*cked it was and he hasn't been back since.
i doubt cr***** will be around anymore, especially after this. and i think all it takes is a few rude comments if he does post and he will quickly get the hint.
Last Edit: Nov 17, 2013 19:25:58 GMT -5 by EAP - Back to Top
Pops told me once that he sometimes plays a game where he guesses when I am really pissed off in my posts. He told me that I never get out of line, but you can tell when I want to say much more.
FWIW, I'm sorry I said all those mean things about sweet tea.
I think in a way, this whole thing is only somewhat about Ron himself - banned or not, it's highly doubtful we'll see him again. He knows he's persona non grata around these parts. That's really not the point, though. Should it be his decision not to come back, or ours? People have been banned for far, far less on this board in the past. Every troll that's ever been banned now seems so damn tame by comparison.
I can also appreciate that the issue isn't nearly as cut and dry a decision for the mods as some are making it out to be, but I do think the Ron case sets an important precedent for Inforoo. Should people ever be banned for things that happen outside of Inforoo? Personally, I don't see a huge distinction between whether the comment was made here, or on the Coachella boards, or on Facebook or wherever. At the end of the day, it's what was said, not where it was said. But some do make that distinction. However, given the severity of his confession, I think in this circumstance it definitely merits a banning - especially as, given the ever-increasing size of Inforoo, it seems almost inevitable we have at least a few survivors of sexual abuse on here who would feel threatened by his presence. Not all skeletons in the closet are created equal.
And even though he said he "should be shot" for the things he's done, his post still seemed to have a bragging tone to it, and that's a big part of what's really not sitting well with me. He was speaking as though he'd slept with five willing supermodels, not five teenage prostitutes from an impoverished country. He said he thought they were "at least" 17, but I'm certain he was backtracking to cover his ass once he realised people were pissed at him. You don't just go around claiming to have slept with people who were underage unless you're quite sure of that fact, and not just guessing they were only a few months shy of legal adulthood.
I honestly don't like being one to bring up things as dust settles, but I did say I would write more once I had time to read and digest everything, and I don't want anyone to think I'm shying away from voicing an opinion. I really like the tenor, honesty, and questions raised in Delicious Meatball Sub's post, second one down on this page. Unfortunately, too many things got conflated here and multiple issues zigzagged the conversation. I do want to emphasize a couple of things separately, however.
1/I believe that the moderators of this board, in the main, want to do the "right thing" whatever the hell that is. I know that moderating all of us is largely a thankless job - and requires more discussion, time, energy, thoughts etc. than most of us could imagine. Having said that, however, I believe having moderators come out and calling members names is inappropriate, even if that name is troll or to infer that certain posters want to be hip by being mean to everyone. Because although it is a volunteer job and it is hard, it still comes with responsibility and a requirement to rise above the crap. Again, that's easy for me to say, I'm not a mod, but this is my honest opinion - very similar to the one I take when I volunteer to ref or ump a kids' game. Sure it's harder than people think and I am not getting paid, but as soon as I take it on, I need to absorb more of the slings and arrows than I would as just Joe Citizen.
2/I also believe that (whatever the internet equivalent) is to screaming at the mods is not helpful. It added to the murkiness of the issue at hand and helped bring about what are clearly some hard feelings by some mods to some members, and vice versa - which of course, further muddies the water. Druid, especially, thank you for putting up with everyone's crap and trying to solve this in the best way possible, while also trying to have a real life.
3/The whole issue with CR makes me sick to my stomach. I kept waiting for him to repent or retract that he was exaggerating or making things up or SOMETHING. However, it is clear, to me at least, that this did happen and he doesn't see a problem with it. I don't care where it happened, where it was revealed, or what it has to do with this board - I don't want to associate with him in anyway. I would feel like every time he posted in a thread and I saw his goofy-ass signature or whatever that reading it or participating would make me feel complicit somehow. I'm too old and too busy for that kind of thing - and I don't believe putting him on ignore would be enough for me.
4/HOWEVER - given everything we know, a ban does create a slope, or extend a slope or whatever, and I've always been against mod-censoring/locking threads because they might stir up trouble/banning for various reasons. So I understand the dilemma that is faced here. Given what I've said in #3 above though, I do believe this is a rare instance where a ban is warranted - as hard as that is for me to accept within myself.
5/To me this should be about whether or not to ban a member and not about the Cap Dogg, who hates who in the zoo, or rationalizing or trying to mitigate what Ron himself has admitted.
6/The internet is a very difficult place to discuss these serious issues because we don't have body language, tone, or instant return on commentary. As is true with every board I've ever been a member of, that comes with the virtual territory unfortunately.
7/I will accept whatever decision is made here as long as it isn't "we didn't do anything because the only ones who seem to care are the troublemakers and trolls." Which I have no expectation will occur.
I'll open the floor for questions, clarifications, or PMs telling me I'm a noodlehead (not a board filter, my own made up word). Otherwise, I'm going back to Now Playing and get my happy place on.
We have made the decision not to ban. However, before the pitch forks and tiki torches come out, we have come up with a solution that we hope will take care of the problem. I have sent Ron a PM. It was well thought out, proof read for spelling, and looked over by the Mods. We have asked him to leave this community and never come back. His past indiscretions are too heinous to overlook. His half assed attempt at an explanation is mind boggling. His lack of remorse is unforgivable. His actions have caused a lot of discord amongst our community, and for that he needs to go. Quietly, no drama. No new thread begging for forgiveness or worse, calling out those of us that condemn him.
Why no ban? As has been pointed out, it's a slippery slope. Banning for something done in one's personal life and never mentioned on this board. And yes, this crime warrants the use of that slope. But in our opinion, this is worse than a ban. And what he deserves. We can push a button, and he is gone. Or we can take the time to write him a message and tell him why we never want to see him on this board again.
What if he does not comply? What if he is defiant and challenges us? Well then, we as a community and as a group will face that head on. Together.
I know this has caused a lot discord amongst us. I hope that we can put those hurt feelings aside and enjoy the music.
PS the letter to him was easier to write than this.
We have made the decision not to ban. However, before the pitch forks and tiki torches come out, we have come up with a solution that we hope will take care of the problem. I have sent Ron a PM. It was well thought out, proof read for spelling, and looked over by the Mods. We have asked him to leave this community and never come back. His past indiscretions are too heinous to overlook. His half assed attempt at an explanation is mind boggling. His lack of remorse is unforgivable. His actions have caused a lot of discord amongst our community, and for that he needs to go. Quietly, no drama. No new thread begging for forgiveness or worse, calling out those of us that condemn him.
Why no ban? As has been pointed out, it's a slippery slope. Banning for something done in one's personal life and never mentioned on this board. And yes, this crime warrants the use of that slope. But in our opinion, this is worse than a ban. And what he deserves. We can push a button, and he is gone. Or we can take the time to write him a message and tell him why we never want to see him on this board again.
What if he does not comply? What if he is defiant and challenges us? Well then, we as a community and as a group will face that head on. Together.
I know this has caused a lot discord amongst us. I hope that we can put those hurt feelings aside and enjoy the music.
PS the letter to him was easier to write than this.
Thanks for taking all the time I'm sure it did to address all of this. For whatever it's worth, while I'm not sure this plan will work as intended, it is probably the same thing I would have chosen if I were a mod here.
Post by Dave Maynar on Nov 18, 2013 17:22:35 GMT -5
I appreciate that the mods (Druid posted it but I am sure every mod had input on it) took the time to think it over and write up the decision with the thought behind it. Whether it will be the best course or not is out of any one person's hands, but I think everyone benefits from hearing what the decision was and how it was made.
Thank you for the well-written explanation, Druid, as well as taking both sides into careful consideration. I'm grateful that you allowed everyone to have some input on the matter; in the days of Adam, this type of thing would have been swept under the rug and we'd be told it was none of our business, which I don't think is fair. I'm not saying the moderation needs to be a democracy, but I do appreciate you taking our views into account on something of such a serious nature as this.
I understand that being a mod must be a bit like being a politician at times, in that no matter what you do, someone is probably going to be annoyed at you for your decision. I think a strongly worded message telling him to stay out of our community is a fair and mutually agreeable solution, and hopefully we can all just put this whole ugly ordeal behind us now.
Wow. I typically don't venture out to the non music related threads a whole lot and I just came across all of this. Cr*** is child rapist, people think Big Cap Dog is offensive to AC/Superfly, and Sproat made a board member OD on drugs. Can anybody share the story about Sproat? BTW, I like how that dirty son of b*tch, Ron, was asked to leave and never come back.
But in our opinion, this is worse than a ban. And what he deserves. We can push a button, and he is gone. Or we can take the time to write him a message and tell him why we never want to see him on this board again.
I hadn't thought of it this way. It is worse than a ban.
Post by 3post1jack1 on Nov 18, 2013 20:44:53 GMT -5
Things I've learned from participating in online communities:
1. Online communities need enforcers or whatever you want to call them. Without the hazing they provide the idiots would take over. Can it go too far sometimes, sure, but in the end its helps cut down on the noise so the signal can get through.
2. Online communities need moderators that approach situations with a measure of input from the community, but ultimately it can't be a democracy, because a consensus might never be reached. The moderators have to make the hard decisions, and not everyone will always like it.
3. The ultimate goal of any online community should be to foster an environment where like-minded people can have a discussion about whatever it is they are passionate about, in our case live music. This means keeping good members, chasing away idiots, and encouraging new members who contribute to stick around and be a part of.
When I first started posting here I received a PM from a mod encouraging me to stick around. It meant a lot to me. Inforoo isn't perfect, but its far and away the best live music discussion forum on the internet, and a ton of work has gone into making that happen. So thanks from me to everyone that keeps making it happen.
Unfortunately, calling other members "stupid" or otherwise personal attacks or insults is not acceptable or negotiable. If you do not like that, we can discuss further in PM. As to not waste anymore space in this thread. Much appreciated.
Dragging this in here because I think it should be discussed publically. Is this really the Mod policy going forward?
Post by Delicious Meatball Sub on Nov 19, 2013 12:01:15 GMT -5
Gibran, I think you're letting your personal feelings about certain members cloud your judgment about what's good mod policy. But maybe I'm dead wrong and all the mods are united on this. I'd just like to know.
Hey everyone and welcome to the board! This board has been created for YOU so please respect it and the other members. Here are some rules I hope you will all follow: -No ticket selling will be tolerated, we do not want to get shut down by the promoters of the event -No flaming, obscenity, or otherwise being rude, this is YOUR scene, keep it clean! -Please post in the appropriate sections of the message board, inappropriate posts will be moved or removed -Please, No Drukq talk on Inforoo™. Click link for more on Drukq talk on the board >> Drukq Talk discussion of other illegal activities is also not allowed. -Use of the Inforoo™ trademark without permission will not be tolerated. For example no one may create a new website, chat room, or other entity and call it Inforoo™ or a derivative thereof without permission -Each individual on this earth is permitted one and only one account on this board for their lifetime. Exceptions may be made for "exigent" circumstances such as lost passwords. Exceptions will never be made in the case of banned members. (This one has been on the books for a while, just making it official)
With that said, have fun and I'll see you all in Tennessee!
It has always been board policy. I believe I would have a consensus among the mods that personal attacks like calling somebody stupid or an idiot for their opinion is not acceptable. But, I will not put words in their mouths.
