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Get the fuck out of dodge. Too many problems at home to throw money we don't have at a situation like a neverending war. But I doubt that's gonna happen.
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
I guess I still feel we owe some responsibility there. After all we were there for the party we should stick around for the cleanup.
I agree. I don't know enough about the was and military and foreign policy to really have an informed opinion about the war(s), but I do agree with this statement. It seems it would be the right thing to do.
IMO, we're in this mess because of what we did to Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. Or just after actually. I think we need to help clean up the mess. I don't think we should use troops to hunt down Osama though. I think that would best be left to the CIA.
I just don't know how we define "clean up." How will we know when we're done? I agree that we shouldn't just leave, but staying simply because we feel obligated doesn't help much either. We need a definable, achievable goal.
I also feel that more pressure should be put on the Afghan/Pakistan border. It seems to me that that is where al queda have moved to.
Yes. This is now more of a war with the Taliban. I think either we get the whole planet to say "Yeah, these guys aren't cool" and help us out, OR we bug out and let the black-ops guys do their thing.
There's so many things I think we could do better. I don't think you can waltz in and tell people that their Opium crop, which they have depended on for generations to feed their families, has to go. Perhaps we could offer to replace it with other crops?
IMO, we're in this mess because of what we did to Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. Or just after actually. I think we need to help clean up the mess. I don't think we should use troops to hunt down Osama though. I think that would best be left to the CIA.
ok - don't have a heart attack - I agree with bigjohn. Even more so after received a phone call Saturday. A friend of mine that is Special Forces and currently in what he terms "the world's biggest suckhole" called. Long brutal, very emotionally draining conversation.
At this point - we just need to get the job done and bring the boys home.
Yeah - most of the guys I know are not happy about going - they realize that it's a job they have to do because that is what they are told to do but it doesn't make it easy
Ralph Nader on Obama one year ago today. Prophetic . If any of you have the patience or desire, here is Ralph speaking the truth for nearly a half an hour in 3 parts. Gospel and truth. Not greenwashing and Hollywood as many of you find "electable".
I won't bother to bore anyone with debate. It's just my opinion. And a link I found timely and apt to what I usually bark on about.
Not trying to "hyper post" either to whom it may concern. The greenwashing and Hollywood quotes were in reference were from the videos. Electable=corporate. I found it topical and ironic that Ralph had it pegged a year ago, that's all. Sorry to bother anyone....
Anyone who wins the democratic or republican nomination is going to get that corporate attention. They are going to vote with somebody, and after the economic meltdown they found their best bet was to move to Obama.
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
Not bothering me, blue. I just don't know what else we do in our current political environment. With things as they are, I feel a third party vote is a wasted vote, especially if it had helped the Hon. Mr. McCain win.
And I feel that voting against republicans instead of FOR democrats gets us the kind of centrist corporatists. And I'm always viewed as the one who "costs" somebody an election. I just have to honor a man like Ralph who has spent his whole life speaking truth to power, and telling it EXACTLY like it is. In my opinion, voting for someone who is likely to win is a ridiculous self manipultion, so to speak, that seems to give these bozos a mandate to keep up the status quo.
If for ONE instant, either side thought that there was a real 3rd party threat, they would become more accountable to their constituents. Until then, they'll just keep pointing fingers at one another, and laughing together at all of us, as they spend the last of our money on increasingly limited and expensive resources.
A third party threat builds one vote at a time. We have a choice to buy into the fear promoted by both major parties and to keep our votes "counting", or to step outside of this mess, and realize that we are in the grips of a corporate oligarchy, and do something to break the cycle and effect real change. Enough from me.
steps off soapbox...walks away with head hangin' low....
And I feel that voting against republicans instead of FOR democrats gets us the kind of centrist corporatists. And I'm always viewed as the one who "costs" somebody an election. I just have to honor a man like Ralph who has spent his whole life speaking truth to power, and telling it EXACTLY like it is. In my opinion, voting for someone who is likely to win is a ridiculous self manipultion, so to speak, that seems to give these bozos a mandate to keep up the status quo.
If for ONE instant, either side thought that there was a real 3rd party threat, they would become more accountable to their constituents. Until then, they'll just keep pointing fingers at one another, and laughing together at all of us, as they spend the last of our money on increasingly limited and expensive resources.
A third party threat builds one vote at a time. We have a choice to buy into the fear promoted by both major parties and to keep our votes "counting", or to step outside of this mess, and realize that we are in the grips of a corporate oligarchy, and do something to break the cycle and effect real change.
Very well said; bravo.
Personally, I can't quite make that jump because even the more major tertiary parties don't appeal to me any more than the Dems or Reps. I have before and will again vote for the outsider if I truly believe he/she is the best choice, but speaking generally about the parties themselves, there is no one that I like significantly more than another. In other words, we shouldn't get too idealistic and assume that no legitimate third party has developed only because people are to scared to try and change. Some may just not be enticed yet.
Thanks Steve. It's my opinion that the threat of a 3rd party becoming viable is nearly as good as that third party representing you to a T. I have voted Libertarian on occasion, and believe you me, that makes for some strange bedfellows. I'd call myself independent before I called myself a Green, or a Lib, or even a Socialist.
But I feel where you are coming from. I guess, whereas some dems vote AGAINST reps, I often find myself voting against dempublicans, and for a 3rd party.
Just couldn't do that for Ross Perot though. To me, he represented big money influence almost as much as the two majors...
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
The biggest problem is that I have never really seen a third party candidate who pushes for a third way. They typically run on either a more liberal, or more conservative stance than their opponents. Look at this recent NY race where the third party go the repub to drop out, and then immediately managed to lose a race in one of the most conservative districts in America. For a third party to be truly effective it would have to gather votes proportionately from both sides of the political spectrum. Due to our current trench warfare style politics that will almost be impossible.
Or somehow more liberal and more conservative with ole' Ronny Paul. It's gonna take someone capturing the imagination of both progressives and fiscal conservatives. The real problem with Paul was that he was about as good looking as Ross Perot and as nationally likable as Kucinich (spl). Some good policies tho........
I just realized none of this really has anything to do with issues under Obama.
-When I Hear My Name -Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground -Blue Orchid -Passive Manipulation -Red Rain -Death Letter -My Doorbell -Hotel Yorba -Same Boy You've Always Known -Lovesick -Little Ghost -We're Going to Be Friends -The Hardest Button to Button -Black Math -The Nurse -I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Encore: -Ball and Biscuit -Seven Nation Army -Screwdriver
I suppose 3rd party threat, and splitting of the liberal vote are "issues" that Obama must face...(or perhaps he now considers beneath or "under" him)...
I think many of the 3rd parties are ideologically based, and centered around social issues that the dems used to champion and now , only champion by default. Many could be encompassed by Nader's populist? umbrella, or if the democrats actually gave a little more than lip service to social reform. But as long as their bread is buttered by the same industries in need of such reform, little more than lip service will prevail. I am a Kucinich LOVER, but he is neutered and only serves as a foil to the Ronald Reagan/hollywood type candidates that are propped up on the telemovision. Perhaps he will garner the national name recognition as a Democrat needed to win big elections and eventually jump ship and spearhead a 3rd party effort. You certainly don't see enough of Nader or Chomsky or Zinn in the media. These are brilliant men who have served and who could continue to boost this democracy if only given the forum. Regardless of what your political orientation is, don't we all benefit from healthy informed debate and not infotainment ?
Anyone remember the movie Bob Roberts ? Great Tim Robbins flick that is totally on point here...
And to Jess's point, I think any more centrism is moot. The two bigs have the sheep and the undecideds locked up. We certainly don't benefit from independent centrist oportunism ala Lieberman. Enough with the gerrymandering already ! That's the problem I've got with the so called middle. Stand for something besides the opportunism of being re-elected !
yay for the pathway to amnesty...sure, healthcare reform might not include illegal aliens, but what happens when they are all made legal? is the cbo's report of $800 something billion for a health plan taking into consideration that soon another 12 million (and Lord knows there's probably twice, if not three times, that many illegals here) people will be added. have no fear though, the rich man will bail everyone out with all his taxes
yay for the pathway to amnesty...sure, healthcare reform might not include illegal aliens, but what happens when they are all made legal? is the cbo's report of $800 something billion for a health plan taking into consideration that soon another 12 million (and Lord knows there's probably twice, if not three times, that many illegals here) people will be added. have no fear though, the rich man will bail everyone out with all his taxes
Fun statistic I just heard the other day real unemployment for illegals is only about 4%. It might suck for employers to finally have to cover them, but the fact is most have jobs. When you live hand to mouth at minimum wage or less when you are out of work you damn well go get some. Do really think once illegals are made legal that they are gonna sit around in sun all day not working?
Last Edit: Nov 15, 2009 9:21:13 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
have no fear though, the rich man will bail everyone out with all his taxes
Maybe it goes back to the Robin Hood way of thinking "Steal from the rich and give to the poor"?
Or we could just shout Let the rich pay their fair share. If everyone in this country paid the same proportional amount of their income in taxes that I do we would be well off. While the rich pay more in terms of volume they certainly do not in terms of % of income. Also taxes now are less than when Reagan was president. If the tax cuts for the wealthy expire and we use that to pay for health care the tax rate will be the SAME as when Reagan was President. So why the bellyaching?
yay for the pathway to amnesty...sure, healthcare reform might not include illegal aliens, but what happens when they are all made legal? is the cbo's report of $800 something billion for a health plan taking into consideration that soon another 12 million (and Lord knows there's probably twice, if not three times, that many illegals here) people will be added. have no fear though, the rich man will bail everyone out with all his taxes
Fun statistic I just heard the other day real unemployment for illegals is only about 4%. It might suck for employers to finally have to cover them, but the fact is most have jobs. When you live hand to mouth at minimum wage or less when you are out of work you damn well go get some. Do really think once illegals are made legal that they are gonna sit around in sun all day not working?
im not seeing where i said anything about illegals becoming legal and not getting work. oh wait, thats because i never said anthing about illegals sitting in the sun not working. my whole point was the money it will take to add another 12+ million people to the healthcare plan.
to be honest, im sure many will look for jobs. however, with the way everything is right now, i doubt many will find jobs.
What I am saying is that most people will be covered by their employers, and if not the employer will pay a large fee into the system. It is not like it is just adding a bunch of deadbeats who will not pay in. For any system to work it must be self supporting. Do you think that we were going to cap the population? The people who will be the biggest drain are the unemployed, and for the most part illegals are employed. Universal means universal, and I doubt adding 12 million LEGAL residents to the roles will make much difference.