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You see. I just get Meg to start posting over here again and it goes all hinky on me.
eh - I don't run from the stuff Jess posts - he and i can have civil discussions on politics - just as most of the people in this thread can - but I bow out when personal attacks start flying in the political thread.
I'll never say that anyone is wrong for the opinion that they have - we are all entitled to our own opinions without resorting to personal attacks.
At the moment - I might not have voted for Obama and I may not agree with the way he has handled things so far - but he is still my president and deserves to be supported solely for the position he was elected to occupy.
I'm glad that we are sending more troops - I think we need ti finish what has been started and start bringing our troops home.
IMO - we never should have been in the middle east in the first place. We need to start cleaning up some of the messes we have in our own country before we run off throwing money and troops at trying to police the world.
***see - all you have to do is mention me - and I respond
Last Edit: Dec 8, 2009 12:16:37 GMT -5 by Meg - Back to Top
I think that a war in Afghanistan is a lost cause and I don't understand why we continue it.
if we just walk away we are repeating history and setting ourselves up for Bin Laden 2 in about 30 years.
we need to build schools and beef up the infrastructure so they dont revert back to "traditional" ways of thinking (i.e. taliban).
maybe we can get them to just dislike us, and not hate us.
Ultimately, invaders into Afghanistan realize there is nothing there. It is the poorest most desolate place on earth. We are doomed to either realize the futility of being there, or abandon any trace of humanity and continue our military involvement in the region.
In all likelihood, bin Laden is buried under a nondescript pile of stones in a mountain valley somewhere, while the U.S. spends $billions chasing ghosts. We will build roads to nowhere, drill wells for goats and build bridges so travelers between villages don't get their feet wet. And, once we leave, the Taliban will thank us, and laugh at our gullibility.
We're in this mess because we abandoned them once before. Perhaps you remember the Soviet's attempt to occupy Afghanistan? We were helping the rebels. Once the USSR fell apart, we pulled out our support and left them in ruins. In comes Bin Laden and the Taliban. You reap what you sow. We need to try some different seeds this time.
^I have a couple of things here, first off there is no proof that Bin Laden is dead, though he may well be. Secondly it still does not address Pakistan, if we give the Taliban 5 years to go at them, a nuclear armed Iran may be the least of our worries.
^I have a couple of things here, first off there is no proof that Bin Laden is dead, though he may well be. Secondly it still does not address Pakistan, if we give the Taliban 5 years to go at them, a nuclear armed Iran may be the least of our worries.
Pakistan was largely responsible for the empowerment of the Taliban, the majority of which are Pashtun whose historical tribal areas include huge swaths of land on both sides of the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.
As I understand it, the Taliban was much appreciative of the foreign assistance organized by bin Laden against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. This assistance was in the form of men, money and supplies from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and reportedly the U.S.
Looking at Afghanistan you see most of the population living in stone huts in arid land full of dirt and rocks who spend their time tending goats. Political ideology is determined by the village where you live. Larger political affiliations such as "Taliban" are a tribal mirage that ebbs and flows like drifting sand.
American soldiers will soon learn, like the British and like the Soviets, there is nothing to fight. Our enemies are shadows cast by rocks from here to the distant mountains on the horizon. Winning a war need not require the defeat of an enemy. You need only recognize there is no enemy to defeat.
^While part of Pakistan is dominated by the Pashtuns, who largely make up the Taliban, it is predominantly Punjabi. If there is a Pashtuni revolution then you will see a nuclear armed Taliban, and I think we can all agree that would be a bad idea. Also your generalization of Afghanistan is a little off. While there certainly are arid parts it is also mountainous, and for all that arid rock filled land they manage to grow a surprisingly high amount of opium and hash.
^While part of Pakistan is dominated by the Pashtuns, who largely make up the Taliban, it is predominantly Punjabi. If there is a Pashtuni revolution then you will see a nuclear armed Taliban, and I think we can all agree that would be a bad idea. Also your generalization of Afghanistan is a little off. While there certainly are arid parts it is also mountainous, and for all that arid rock filled land they manage to grow a surprisingly high amount of opium and hash.
Afghanistan is the major supplier of opium on the world market by far. It is rumored that President Karzai's brother is neck-deep in the opium trade. Opium farming was drastically curtailed under Taliban rule, but has revived several-fold since the U.S. displaced the Taliban. (I'm talking of economic commodities, not druqs, to comply with board rules.)
The Pashtun are a minority living in undeveloped tribal areas of Pakistan. Pashtuns that identify themselves as Taliban are an even smaller minority, I don't think there is any rational concern they may take over or even have much influence over the Pakistan government.
The U.S. government has been pressing Pakistan to take a stronger stand against militants (Taliban and al-Qaeda) in the tribal regions. Pakistanis in general are taken aback by the U.S. position. They view themselves as having done much and sustained serious losses against the militants, who would prefer to be left alone. Technically, the U.S. violates Pakistan airspace often with CIA controlled reconnaissance and killer drones.
American soldiers will soon learn, like the British and like the Soviets, there is nothing to fight. Our enemies are shadows cast by rocks from here to the distant mountains on the horizon. Winning a war need not require the defeat of an enemy. You need only recognize there is no enemy to defeat.
I largely agree with you. However, I feel the enemy is the ideology against western values. perhaps ideology is the wrong word - intolerance, fear, mistrust, anger... those are more accurate.
hearts and minds.
but we cant win those with tanks and bombs.
part of the problem is also religion, or at least, extremist beliefs in religion. no matter what we do, if someone is a little too into their koran, you are going to have a jihad against non-muslim nations.
i dont have a solution, but it would seem running away would just set us up for an even bigger fall than in round 1.
American soldiers will soon learn, like the British and like the Soviets, there is nothing to fight. Our enemies are shadows cast by rocks from here to the distant mountains on the horizon. Winning a war need not require the defeat of an enemy. You need only recognize there is no enemy to defeat.
I largely agree with you. However, I feel the enemy is the ideology against western values. perhaps ideology is the wrong word - intolerance, fear, mistrust, anger... those are more accurate. [...] i dont have a solution, but it would seem running away would just set us up for an even bigger fall than in round 1.
The *threat* of a surge is already having effects. Iran just announced it is willing to exchange stockpiles of its enriched uranium for fuel rods to power a small reactor designed to produce medical isotopes. The purpose of this strategy is to leave Iran with too little enriched uranium to make a bomb.
Another interesting development was the arrest of 5 men from northern Virginia in Pakistan. The men traveled to Pakistan to receive training in order to fight U.S. forces in Afghanistan; at least that's the contention.
Pakistan released a report which included how some of the arrestees shared a single webmail account; all using the same name and password to access the account. Emails between individuals were shared using the drafts folder, without any emails actually being sent.
Although it is understood *sent* emails can be intercepted in some circumstances, emails traded between individuals in the drafts folder of a single, shared, common webmail account requires the monitoring of a single account. The FBI has said they were monitoring for some time the activities of the men arrested. The Pakistan report revealed that governments are aware of this type of communication, and the technique is not secure.
What makes this interesting is the current U.S. surge in Afghanistan has received public attention for several months. The number of extra troops being considered has involved discussions and leaks of discussion between the White House and Pentagon. There has been an increase in communications/chatter and recruitment of people interested in confronting the U.S. in Afghanistan. And, at least in the case of the 5 men arrested, they were being watched.
Whether the men arrested were actual jihadists or part of a covert intelligence gathering operation will be hard to decipher. They were probably a mix of both.
Obama is meeting with bank officials today to slap their hands. I don't think you can change the mind-set on Wall St. They don't care if people don't like them. They have all the money.
The USA PATRIOT Act includes interruption of economic activity as an act of terrorism. I'd say we've definitely seen some things coming from Wall Street that would be considered an "interruption of economic activity" the past year or so.
We'd be within our rights to declare those banker fucks to be enemy combatants and waterboard the bejesus out of them, right? Why isn't this Plan A?
I'm sure they'll get with the program after we mutilate and/or mildly electrocute their genitals.
so there was an extreme shortage (at the beginning) of H1N1 vaccines. now, the 800,000 vaccines are being recalled due to being inadequete (strength of vaccine has weakend)...after they have all been used, more than likely. is this what we should expect from Democrat-run healthcare reform?
most of the country wants reform, but not Obama-care. however, even with all the polls showing discontent in America over Obama-care, Pres Obaba, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi are going to try and shove it down America's throat.
so there was an extreme shortage (at the beginning) of H1N1 vaccines. now, the 800,000 vaccines are being recalled due to being inadequete (strength of vaccine has weakend)...after they have all been used, more than likely. is this what we should expect from Democrat-run healthcare reform?
it was a manufacturer error, not because of democrats. It's not a danger or a crisis or anything. You're blowing it out of proportion.
---------------------------- No big deal. That's what infectious disease experts are saying about drugmaker Sanofi Pasteur's recall of about 800,000 pediatric doses of its vaccine against pandemic H1N1 influenza because of low potency. The recall was announced by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Tuesday.
"It is a pain the neck, but not a major crisis," said Dr. William Schaffner, chair of Vanderbilt University School of Medicine's Department of Preventive Medicine in Nashville, Tenn. "This should not discourage people from being vaccinated."
But the recall is hardly a shot in the arm for a Miss Piggy flu vaccination effort that has in recent months been plagued by delays and supply shortages.
"I suspect most of the consequences will be perceptual," said Stephen Morse, professor in the Department of Epidemiology at the Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health in New York. "But it does add to the embarrassment in a program whose glitches have already been well publicized."
Despite the nature of the recall, children who were vaccinated with the weakened doses should not be revaccinated because the antigen content "is only slightly below the 'specified' range," according to the CDC. In other words, even the weakened level of the vaccine is still expected to be protective.
The recall does not affect any of the vaccine for adults or products from other manufacturers. And according to the CDC, "There are no safety concerns with these lots of H1N1 vaccine. All lots successfully passed pre-release testing for purity, potency, and safety." The strength of vaccines can sometimes decline with time, the agency said in a statement on its Web site.
The weakened potency of the vaccine doses was identified by Sanofi Pasteur during routine quality assurance testing, but the company has not yet determined the cause. Representatives from the company were not immediately available for comment.
Recall Does Not Mean H1N1 Vaccine Unsafe, Experts Say
Most immunization experts agreed that the recall should not be viewed as a black eye for the H1N1 vaccine.
"When there will be over 150 million doses available in the U.S. alone, we should be happy that testing is vigorous and found very little problem thus far," said Dr. Peter Katona, associate professor of Clinical Medicine at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA. "The fact that revaccination isn't even recommended makes this even less of an issue."
Dr. John Treanor, chief of the Infectious Diseases Division of the Department of Medicine at the University of Rochester Medical Center in Rochester, N.Y., noted that the 10 percent drop in potency that has been reported would mean that instead of getting a dose of 15 micrograms from the H1N1 shot, a person would be getting a dose of 13.5 micrograms.
"In studies that we and others have done with seasonal vaccine in adults, there is no substantial difference in the immune response between a dose of 15 micrograms and one of 7.5 micrograms," he said. "So I can't imagine that the effect of a 10 percent decrease in potency of this vaccine would be even noticeable."
One of the five manufacturers supplying H1N1 vaccine to the United States is recalling hundreds of thousands of flu shots because they aren't as potent as they should be.
The French manufacturer Sanofi Pasteur is voluntarily recalling about 800,000 doses of vaccine meant for children between the ages of 6 months and 35 months.
The company and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention emphasized that the recall was not prompted by safety concerns, and that even though the vaccine isn't quite as potent as it's supposed to be, children who received it don't have to be immunized again against H1N1.
The CDC emphasized that there is no danger for any child who receivedd this type of vaccine. When asked what parents should do, CDC spokesman Tom Skinner said, "absolutely nothing." He said if children receive this vaccine, they will be fine.
Post by nitetimeritetime on Dec 16, 2009 13:30:19 GMT -5
Besides, there's really no reason to make up fake scandals if you want a reason to be mad at Obama about health care reform. If this is true www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/14/rahm-emanuel-personally-p_n_391786.html, then Obama is the reason Reid has so far capitulated to every Republican (and Lieberman) demand to water down health care reform. It looks right now like the R's (and Lieberman) are effectively killing reform, making it no better (maybe worse) than no reform at all, and if the report is true then Obama is helping them do it.
^^^paragraphs two and three pretty much sum up what i was trying to get at with the vaccines. they will push anything, no matter how weak, just to say that they did get something through. once again, american, and i, want healthcare reform. just not obama-care!!!
he wanted the public-option/govt run heathcare, he wants abortions to be paid with taxpayer dollar. those are probably the two biggest issues regarding this bill that we know where he stands...besides the cost, the fact that America will be paying for something that they wont see for three-ish years, etc.
i do believe it is fair to call it obama-care. he is the one who made it one of his top domestic priorities. when over half of America is not buying what congress has to sell, and yet pres obama still wants to push it through, then yes, i do believe that we can call it obama-care.
btw, with regards to the abortion issue. during pres obama's campaign, i do recall him saying something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "i dont want my daughters lives to be ruined because of an unexpected pregnancy." also, as stated in the past, i am all for abortions for whatever reason. however, i do not support taxpayer money paying for it.
He has been very ambiguous about the public option. During his speech to congress, he said that he supported it but he would also listen to other proposals. As to the abortions paid with taxpayer dollars, that's new to me. I've never heard anything like that. If you could find proof that he said that his top 2 things were the public option and tax-funded abortions, I might actually believe you.
By that rationale, we should be calling the 2 wars we're in "Bush-War1" and "Bush-War2" since he is the one that made it one of his top priorities. When over half of America is not buying what congress had to sell, and yet pres Bush still wanted to push it through, then yes, I do believe that we can call it Bush-War1&2.
In reality, there is no such thing as Obama-care. Reid-care, maybe. But Obama has been very hands-off on this issue. Too hands-off for me. I'd like to see a little more toughness out of him.
^^^paragraphs two and three pretty much sum up what i was trying to get at with the vaccines. they will push anything, no matter how weak, just to say that they did get something through.
Except that paragraphs 2 and 3 -- indeed, the entire article -- have absolutely nothing to do with the H1N1 vaccine "crisis," as Sassbox and itrain have both pointed out already.
Mr KC is right about the "Obamacare" label. Paragraphs 2 and 3 (the paragraphs you pointed us toward, jigawig) do a pretty good job of refuting the point about that label. The problem isn't that Obama is ramming anything down anyone's throat; instead, the exact opposite is the problem. Obama has been so hands-off that he has essentially told Congress just to send him a bill, any bill, and he'll sign it. If he was "pushing" anything then he would have made it clear to Congress that he would veto anything that comes to him without a public option, or whatever else he wanted in the bill.
Mr KC, jigawig's statement about taxpayer-funded abortion is sort of right. Right now the Hyde Amendment makes it illegal for tax money to pay for abortions (except in cases of rape, incest, or danger to the woman's life), which means Medicare/Medicaid and fed insurance plans (like all of our Congressfolk enjoy for free) cannot pay for most abortions.
But Hyde wouldn't apply if the fed gov't started subsidizing private insurance plans, and many/most private insurance plans cover abortion. Hyde wouldn't apply because the gov't wouldn't actually be paying for the abortions, they'd be paying for (some of) the cost of the insurance -- and people could choose whichever private plan they wanted under this plan. So indirectly, jigawig is somewhat correct, given a generous interpretation.
EDIT: I should add that Obama has only said he wouldn't oppose the private insurance supplements, as he has said about every possible inclusion into the health care reform bill so far, so it's disingenuous to say that "he wants abortions to be paid with taxpayer dollar" and that this is one of "the two biggest issues regarding this bill that we know where he stands."
So, I caught on the Daily Show last night, some GOP wingnut saying Obama was leading children to Socialism. How, you might ask? By having schoolkids decorate the White House tree.
If the man cured Cancer, the GOP would find something wrong with it. Judas fucking priest!
i stand by my arguments. that is why liberals are so outraged with Lieberman and Nelson, to name a few. even with a filibuster proof congress, libs cant get what they want, and it just pisses them, the unions, planned parenthood, etc. off.
KC, ill half agree with you in regards to "Bush war 1", and "Bush war 2". i was never for the war to begin with, however, you seem to forget that Bush had an overwhelming support from both parties to go to war. so in that sense, you cant completely call it "Bush war". funny thing, "Bush war 1" and "Bush war 2" is nothing new. Celebs/musicians have called it that since the war began. Michael Franti even mentions it in "We Don't Stop".
oh, and judges like Judge Nina Gershon are the ones who scare me when it comes to the terrorists who will be on trial in NY. Judge Gershon ruled it was unconstitutional to block funding from ACORN. even with all the evidence of voter fraud, the recent videos, and all the other corruption, Judge Gershon ruled in favor of this dispicable organization. that is the type of judge i fear in the KSM trial.
^Honestly, there's probably a big list of things that my tax dollars pay for that I wouldn't want them to go to or didn't think I would ever use. And if everybody got to decide exactly what their tax dollars paid for and didn't pay for, nothing would ever be completed. Abortion is legal and a medical procedure. There's no reason that it shouldn't be covered.
You show me a poll that says most Americans aren't for "Obamacare" and I'll show you a poll that says that most Americans are for the public option, which Obama hasn't really said he was for or against, necessarily but I would hope he would be. These polls are always biased and aren't really that telling of anything.
Planned Parenthood isn't just an abortion clinic, though thankfully it does provide it's services to those who would not be able to afford it otherwise. It is a great not for profit organization that provides birth control, STD testing and treatment and general health care as well. They also do infertility tests for those who are trying to get pregnant but can't, which some have found surprising since they thought PP just wanted to give out as many abortions as possible. I'm dumbfounded that PP gets as much hate as it does.
To MrKC: I don't know why Obama is so divisive. He's not near as liberal as I would like him to be. I voted for him for what he really is but sometimes wish he would become this radical liberal that they all make him out to be. Do they even know what that would actually be like?
Abortion is legal and a medical procedure. There's no reason that it shouldn't be covered.
Plastic surgery is a legal medical procedure, so should we start funding breast implants and botox?
Obama IS very liberal, but America isn't. I think people were just so sick of GWB that they were running in the opposite direction and there was a brief but distinct pendulum shift. Also, I think many Americans are feeling very insecure and unsure about their futures, so Obama needs to do everything he can to reassure people. I will concede that he was handed a giant mess, however that doesn't excuse him from not cleaning it up, and in some ways making it worse. My opinion, of course.
^^^I agree with the gist of your statement about cleaning up the mess. He needs to.
However, the man hasn't even been in office for a year. Most of the clean-up w/the economy is going to take awhile to show if it's working. I think a lot of people were so in awe of the man that they expected him to point his finger at stuff and it would be fixed. That aint gonna happen.
And there is a portion of the GOP (I wont blanket them all) that actually want things to stay broke so they can say "look how weak this Obama guy is. you need to vote for us". THAT is downright dispicible.
America is definitely not a conservative country. I've never understood why people think that America is a center-right country. When you look at all the things that make up American popular culture, none if it is conservative.
Jiga- I understand your lack of trust. And I too have similar concerns. But I really don't think that they would appoint a judge that would dismiss the case or anything similar. People have always been skeptical about the gov't and there is a lot riding on this trial. If the trial ends in acquittal or anything less, then the American people will have one more huge reason not to trust the gov't. However, if a guilty verdict comes down, it will be a symbolic win and may restore some faith. It's a big gamble.
Side note: While ACORN is far from a squeaky clean organization, I don't understand all the outrage. First voter REGISTRATION fraud. Not voter fraud. So Mickey Mouse was registered to vote? Did he actually vote? No. ACORN paid people to go out and get people to register to vote. Some ACORN workers just stayed home, played some video games, and made up a fake list of registers. Far from a "despicable organization." Now the prostitution video, well there's no excuse for that. If you get caught teaching someone how to scam the system (that directly funds you) then you're probably gonna get cut off.