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I've had a cop tell me that not having an ID on you is against the law....though I guess he was maybe just trying to intimidate me and my friends.
You do have to identify yourself, just not provide documentation.
To Jigawig
Also since in most states illegals are able to get licenses, I somehow doubt that will count as proof of residence. Sounds like they want a visa, passport, green card, or birth certificate. As far as I am aware these are the only papers that can prove your citizenship.
This is why I pointed out earlier how this could be used as an intimidation tool on anyone the police officer does not like. How often do you go around with documents that prove you are not really an illegal from Canada. I can hear it now, "He pronounced about, aboot, and I suddenly had a suspicion he might be Canadian your honor, that is why we hauled him to jail while we sorted it out"
EDIT
A little research has shown me to be wrong kind of. 24 states (Not TN) require you to identify yourself to a police officer. However even the most stringent only require it "if available" so I guess that just means they can check your wallet. Now in any case that a policeman has reasonable suspicion you have committed or are about to commit a crime, he can place you under arrest then you will have to identify yourself. The way to tell the difference is ask if you are free to leave. If he says yes leave and do not give your id, if he says no it is best to let them know, but you are under arrest at that point so give your id and shut your mouth until a lawyer gets there.
perhaps we should have it where people carry proof of citizenship. i personally see it, you have nothing to hide, you should have nothing to fear.
that being said, im not against immigration reform. im just not for amnesty of millions of undocumented people. as soon as they become legal unemployment numbers will skyrocket, all the social services will run dry, etc. also, for security measures, the u.s. needs to know who is coming into the country. so in conclusion, immigrants are welcome as long as they use the "front door" so to speak...imo.
edit: i can just see it now though. as soon as it seems amnesty is in reach, there will be a massive flooding, at the border, of people trying to get here before the border is secure...if it ever becomes secure.
edit2: i too was told by an officer that it was against the law to be without identification, and i figured a cop would not lie to a citizen like that
perhaps we should have it where people carry proof of citizenship. i personally see it, you have nothing to hide, you should have nothing to fear.
Maybe we should all just get national id cards, and a UV bar code tattooed on the back of our necks at birth just to make sure. Pretty funny that on this issue we are flipped, as it is mostly the right who rallies against a national id system.
that being said, im not against immigration reform. im just not for amnesty of millions of undocumented people. as soon as they become legal unemployment numbers will skyrocket, all the social services will run dry, etc. also, for security measures, the u.s. needs to know who is coming into the country. so in conclusion, immigrants are welcome as long as they use the "front door" so to speak...imo.
So right now we have 2.5 million people in jail, do you really think there is the money to round up and process 11-15 million more people? Where does the money come from, that would cost more than both wars and healthcare reform combined.
I think the only sensible way is going to have to be an amnesty/reform at the same time. We are going to have to process and deal with the people here, and allow more in easier to even get a start on securing the border. I am not saying make it easy, but we are going to have to make it possible for the majority of these people to stay here. A big part of the problem is how broken our current system is.
Also we are going to have to allowing people in on temporary work visas. Believe it or not, a lot of these guys do not want to stay forever.
i personally see it, you have nothing to hide, you should have nothing to fear.
This is the worst argument ever. I have nothing to hide. That doesn't mean I want the police to be able to stop and harass me any old time they feel like it. From what I can tell, this law pretty much gives them the ability to do that. What gives an officer reasonable suspicion to believe that a person is here illegally? How do you put limits on that? And where does the I-don't-have-anything-to-hide logic end? Because again, I don't have anything to hide, but I sure as hell don't want the police to be able to come into my house and have a look around just to see what's there.
and i figured a cop would not lie to a citizen like that
You're not serious, are you? I've read an awful lot of criminal trial transcripts and case law. Police officers do lie to citizens. Also, haven't you ever watched Cops? They lie to people all the time, and there are cameras on them while they do it. I can't imagine what they tell people when the cameras are off.
^^^maybe the worst argument for you, but hell, i have nothing to hide, and i would not mind being stopped by a cop if it made sure that illegal citizens in this country were kept at a minimum
also, im aware of cops lying to citizens, but with something as simple as that an id, i would assume they would have no reason to lie...maybe thats me being naive
i personally see it, you have nothing to hide, you should have nothing to fear.
Here's a not so unbelievable hypothetical for you.
Your teenage son/daughter goes out to a party and has a drink or two. Now you've always told them not to but if they do to not drive. They call you and you pick them up.
Now it so happens you voted against the winning Sheriff in the last election so he's out to get you. He monitors your phone calls, because you have nothing to hide, and comes arrests you for contributing to the delinquency of a minor, your son/daughter for under-aged drinking and social services takes your kid away.
These things can and do happen when authorities have unlimited power of surveillance. So even if you have nothing to hide, you can be subject to abuse of unreasonable powers if unwisely granted.
Last Edit: Apr 26, 2010 19:35:28 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
perhaps we should have it where people carry proof of citizenship. i personally see it, you have nothing to hide, you should have nothing to fear.
that being said, im not against immigration reform. im just not for amnesty of millions of undocumented people. as soon as they become legal unemployment numbers will skyrocket, all the social services will run dry, etc. also, for security measures, the u.s. needs to know who is coming into the country. so in conclusion, immigrants are welcome as long as they use the "front door" so to speak...imo.
Why do you care if people are documented or undocumented? Do you feel you personally are entitled to employment or social benefits or whatever, more than someone else on this planet? And using the word "amnesty" is interesting... it actually makes you out worse than you may be, to me... who would say someone needing amnesty should be turned away? That's cruel.
Even the ancestors of native Americans migrated from other lands to get here. And unless you are 100% native American, your ancestors definitely immigrated here in the colonial days at the earliest, and in the lifespan of the United States more likely. What makes your ancestors more deserving of being able to live and work here than someone coming today? The answer: absolutely nothing. People are people are people. There is nothing about you or your ancestors or anyone else living in or outside of the United States today or ever that makes them more or less deserving than anyone else of receiving those benefits and of living here.
If immigrant workers are willing to work for less money and take jobs "away" from Americans, that's just part of market economics. If immigrant workers qualify to receive benefits, why wouldn't you give them to them? It seems incredibly selfish to think that only the people who were lucky enough to get here before an arbitrary date when people freak out about immigration should get anything.
I'm sorry if you feel targeted, but I find your views to be exactly the kind so prevalent in this immigration debate, and also the kind which are so nonsensical.
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i believe in the law of the land. if youre child is caught drinking, and you get a fine...deal with it. there are consequences to actions. i agree with what cali is trying to do with regards to the "smoking" situation. i hate that fed govt has to get involved, and cant just let people be. however, i also believe that if you are caught, you played the game. so yes, if i were caught in the scenario of lossing my kids due to providing alcohol, then i would hate the consequences, but accept them.
with regards to immigrants, i am completely aware that native americans were the first people on this land. i also realize that this country is made up of immigrants. however, there were laws created to sustain this great country. if we just let anyone and everyone into the country that wanted to be here, we would go so broke. the rich's taxes can only go so far. liberals already want to "even the playing field" (in the words of ACORN'S bertha lewis). they believe in stealing from paul, to give to pete...just because paul can "afford" to give more. as stated, the rich's taxes will only get you so far before you start to run out of resources. believe me, i do feel for the people of mexico. their country is a corrupt place with basically no rules, and NO NO WORD!!! and cash are king. i know a lot want to have better lives here in the states, and that many are willing to work. lets not forget that one in ten americans already cant find work. now add another "x" million, and you will probably have more like one in five that can't find jobs. also, in the mexican culture, they breed like rabbits, and the mother is generally a stay at home mom, taking care of the children. meaning, only one in the family is providing for Lord knows how many. also, when, not if, they become legal, those that do find work, you still only have one out of the two parents contributing anything towards taxes yet everyone benefits due to the whole "paul/pete" thing...free healthcare, free housing, free wic, free schooling, etc.
i forget who had the girlfriend that's from some other country, here on a visa. i would approve of her staying. why you may ask, because she is going to school to add to society, instead of take.
i guess it all boils down to adding God knows how many more takers, into a system that is already broke. it has nothing to do with not feeling compassion, but doing it the right way. the way that can be sustained by our economy, workforce, our country.
end rant
edit: i apologize for the many grammar errors, but i was just on a typing like a mad man
perhaps we should have it where people carry proof of citizenship. i personally see it, you have nothing to hide, you should have nothing to fear.
that being said, im not against immigration reform. im just not for amnesty of millions of undocumented people. as soon as they become legal unemployment numbers will skyrocket, all the social services will run dry, etc. also, for security measures, the u.s. needs to know who is coming into the country. so in conclusion, immigrants are welcome as long as they use the "front door" so to speak...imo.
Why do you care if people are documented or undocumented? Do you feel you personally are entitled to employment or social benefits or whatever, more than someone else on this planet? And using the word "amnesty" is interesting... it actually makes you out worse than you may be, to me... who would say someone needing amnesty should be turned away? That's cruel.
Even the ancestors of native Americans migrated from other lands to get here. And unless you are 100% native American, your ancestors definitely immigrated here in the colonial days at the earliest, and in the lifespan of the United States more likely. What makes your ancestors more deserving of being able to live and work here than someone coming today? The answer: absolutely nothing. People are people are people. There is nothing about you or your ancestors or anyone else living in or outside of the United States today or ever that makes them more or less deserving than anyone else of receiving those benefits and of living here.
If immigrant workers are willing to work for less money and take jobs "away" from Americans, that's just part of market economics. If immigrant workers qualify to receive benefits, why wouldn't you give them to them? It seems incredibly selfish to think that only the people who were lucky enough to get here before an arbitrary date when people freak out about immigration should get anything.
I'm sorry if you feel targeted, but I find your views to be exactly the kind so prevalent in this immigration debate, and also the kind which are so nonsensical.
^^^^ ^^^^
And Jigwig,
Your posts are starting to sound like tea party talking points:
"The Liberals" ACORN????
Really dude? Come on....
Last Edit: Apr 27, 2010 8:03:34 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
also, in the mexican culture, they breed like rabbits, and the mother is generally a stay at home mom, taking care of the children.
By Mexican culture you mean they are Catholic, and this along with the language thing is an argument made many times about letting the Irish in, back in the 1850's-70's. Guess what Boston may have a big St Patricks day, but added to our culture and our nation long term. If you have a job that a untrained person with poor english skills can take away from you, then you do not have much of a job anyway.
Also I love how you blame everyone for wanting to live off of rich peoples taxes. They may pay a high percentage of our country's revenue, but a much smaller overall percentage of their earnings than I do. If they were taxed at the same 40% of earned income rate I am this nation would be sitting pretty. It is not about redistributing the wealth it is about making everyone pay the same amount of their income into the system.
I am constantly amazed that many of the the same people who are so "gung-ho" for individual liberty are also the ones who are so ready to cede to police/governmental authority in the name of "following the rules." I am an avid civil libertarian and will never cede a single right to the government as I believe the power corrupts and will always eventually be abused.
I have the inalienable right to be left alone as long as what I'm doing does not directly affect anyone else and, whether what I'm doing is right or wrong in their eyes, is irrelevant. In fact whether it is legal or illegal by their morals/laws is irrelevant in the eyes of my heart and my God.
If there is anything I can do about it, I will not allow the government or police to take my rights and/or privacy just because I am not doing anything "wrong." Lots of people who did nothing wrong are in prison or dead because of this attitude.
Now economically I am more flexible as no man has the inalienable right to money. I am an economic liberal and feel the government has the right, and perhaps even the obligation, to manipulate the economy to "promote the general welfare." They can mess with my wallet to a much greater extent that my private life. It seems many conservatives feel the opposite, allowing government intrusion into their private lives while abhorring the hand in the wallet. I find that strange.
Sorry if I rant. Just my thoughts.
And jigawig - I find it strange and a little hard to believe that you would accept your child being taken from you because you voted for the wrong sheriff. I hope that is a mis-characterization and protecting your rights, and especially your family, is more than just "playing the game"
Last Edit: Apr 27, 2010 8:21:36 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
also, in the mexican culture, they breed like rabbits, and the mother is generally a stay at home mom, taking care of the children.
Now if that isn't a generalized stereotype, I don;t know what is.
in the MEXICAN CULTURE, THEY breed like rabbits.
Jig, the more you type, the more you prove what a racist bigot you are.
Do you think that simply being born into the "mexican culture" somehow makes you autoprone to "breeding like rabbits"? Do you think it makes women do nothing more than stay at home with kids.
For cripes sake man, why so much hate for your fellow man?
Also, my wife is a stay at home mother/wife. I am the onyl one in the house that works outside the home, we have 4 people living in the home....so what? Should my wife or kids not be entitled to benefits just because she CHOSE to stay home and raise our kids.
BTW: That's Jesse's g/f on the work visa, yeah, a non-american. and you know what, she is probably contributing more to the US through her research than you and I both combined.
YOU SIR ARE A BIGOT!!!!!!
Last Edit: Apr 27, 2010 9:34:14 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
^^^maybe the worst argument for you, but hell, i have nothing to hide, and i would not mind being stopped by a cop if it made sure that illegal citizens in this country were kept at a minimum
Really? Because I sure as hell would, and I'm a full citizen and was born in this country. I have nothing to hide; I'm an upstanding, tax-paying, law-abiding citizen (at least aside from the occasional ear of corn). The 4th Amendment protects me against unreasonable searches and seizures. I value and cherish that right as a freedom that many people in the world are not lucky enough to be granted. I'm not about to throw that away just so that maybe police can have a better chance at catching illegal immigrants. For me, the idea of being pulled over and having to show papers other than a driver's license evokes images of an Orwellian society. The thing about rights is that they stop being rights once people stop exercising them. If we become complacent and let the government make exceptions to our rights, then they were never really rights to begin with - just privileges.
I understand opposing amnesty for all illegal immigrants. That's a little too much for me. Throwing them all in jail is not an acceptable option either, though. I think it's safe to assume that the majority of illegal immigrants from Mexico live a financially poorer life than most. I mean people aren't exactly jumping the boarders and running a fortune 500 company. They tend to have lower-paying, "under the table" type jobs. I don't think that this is a bigoted generalization, it's just a fact that I think we can all agree upon. Since many illegal immigrants tend to be poorer, if they were to become legal US residents, they would qualify for various entitlement programs. Now I am not against entitlement programs and the like. I just feel that in this hypothetical situation, adding x million people to the rosters of governmental programs would be a shock to the system. Now is not really a good time for this. Conversely, imprisoning them or even deporting them will also cost taxpayers. So there is no perfect way to deal with the issue. My initial thought is to spend money rehabilitating Mexico so that people don't want to leave as much. If Mexico is a more stabilized, industrial nation, Mexicans won't leave to come to the US. Like Jess had said earlier, if the immigration process were not so convoluted it would be easier for immigrants of all nations to come to America. And in that case, those who came illegally would face punishment (not sure if jail or deportation) since they had a legal alternative.
we need to remember the inscription on the Statue of Liberty which states "give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses.." 1. truth is, unless you are 100% Native American in heritage, then a large number of your ancestors came from somewhere else. Period. Read and reread this statement until you fully comprehend it, and then go on:
2. Said ancestors came here seeking a better life for them and their descendants, and America has always embodied that ideal.
again, read and reread this until you really get it.
Once you have those basic truths down pat, then we can go on and have some real dialogue.
in that spirit, then, here are my observations:
I think we have perpetuated a lot of our current problem by such things as providing services in Spanish/English. If people want to come here for a better life, I'm all for it, but at least make an effort to assimilate into society...that includes learning at least some working knowledge of the primary language. I can't fathom spending any longer than a few days in any other country and not learning at least a few phrases.
The comment about Mexicans reproducing like rabbits or whatever it said was too disgusting to even merit a reply. It was at best, a racist generalization, I think the term is profiling...but has no place in intelligent 21st century discussion.
Lastly, I am by no means a serious student of fundamentalist Christian teaching, but the whole idea of a national ID is really creepy to me...sort of approximating the "mark of the beast" that they speak of. I don't want Big Brother keeping up with me anymore than is absolutely necessary.
we need to remember the inscription on the Statue of Liberty which states "give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses.."
Robin Williams says something about this in his stand-up. Something to the effect of the American sentiment is now "Get out!" and lady liberty is now holding a baseball bat instead of a torch.
I'm all for immigration. It's pure hypocrisy to have a country considered to be the "melting pot" of different cultures but stand against immigration.
in regards to you "YOU ARE A BIGOT" statement...sticks and stones, bro. if it is easy for you to accept that i am a bigot, then so be it. i know for a fact that i am not a racist. in regards to your what language do they speak, well what language do they speak in american culture...i know i dont speak american, i speak english.
as to anyone who is thinking that my "breeding like rabbits" analogy is a disgusting thing to say, well i for one agree. the fact that i agree does not make it false though. MOST of you do not live in border states, therefore, all you see is a sliver of what it is like by our southern neighbor.
two shows/movies come to mind with this whole debate. south park's time-cists episode, and skit on "the kings of comedy" where bernie mac says that people know not what to say to appear not racist. it pains me to say it, but both of those items are so true in ways, maybe not 100%, but it in some ways they are. ask anyone who works in the food industry as a server/waiter. they will tell you that they hate waiting on foreigners, especially mexicans. Why??? because they tip like s-h-i-t for the most part, and they are so demanding. of course, this is not always the case, but in most cases it is true. a car dealer will, upon first impression, not rush to a mexican family looking at cars (unless they are dressed to impress), vs an anglo family. i hate that, but thats just the way it is. if making generalizations about a culture, when there is ample evidence of the generalization, makes one a racist well so be it.
as stated many times, i am not against immigration as long as long as it is done legally. i just heard a commentator yesterday make a beautiful analogy, and i will change the place to make it more compatible to this forum. "everyone is welcome to bonnaroo...so long as you have a ticket." im not for saying dont come to the u.s., but i am saying that if you are going to come that you do it through the proper channels.
Post by NothingButFlowers on Apr 27, 2010 16:13:40 GMT -5
I just don't understand. Your argument for you not being a racist is that hispanics are demanding customers and sh!tty tippers who get ignored by car dealers? As for "ample evidence" of your generalizations, you haven't referred to any evidence. You just made more generalizations. (By the way, while we're making generalizations, I've never heard any of the servers I've known make those statements about waiting on foreign customers. I have heard them make those exact statements about the Sunday afternoon after-church customers. Not relevant, just an observation.)
As far as immigration being okay as long as it's done legally, the problem with that is that the legal channels are entirely too restrictive. I get the impression that when you say you are cool with reform and letting in immigrants legally, you don't want those channels to be made less restrictive. I've heard heartbreaking cases of people coming here because they suffered horrifying abuses in their home countries, but because they don't fit the exact definition of refugee, they get sent back to places where they are going to be subject to even more terrible things. The solution to that cannot possibly be tightening up our border security.
as to anyone who is thinking that my "breeding like rabbits" analogy is a disgusting thing to say, well i for one agree. the fact that i agree does not make it false though. MOST of you do not live in border states, therefore, all you see is a sliver of what it is like by our southern neighbor.
Hey not only is it it disgusting, it generalizes an entire nation of people that you are obviously pig ignorant about. I have lived in Mexico City, and Nashville has about a 7-10% population of Mexican immigrants, so dont hand me your sanctimonious I know better than you bullcrap dude. The dictionary lists a bigot as "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices." this describes you perfectly.
i guess its just coincidence that most of the people i have known in the waiting industry think this. i guess its just coincidence that when i have gone to look at vehicles that several sales reps just looked at me, and as soon as someone who was anglo showed up they reps were all over them fighting as to who get to them first. damn, my life is just full of coincidences. i probably should also tell all my latin friends that im a bigot. mind you, most of my friends are in the categories which i describe...living off govt, breeding like rabbits, buying frivolous items that they should not own, not really attempting to make anything better of themselves. the funny thing is that even though i do not agree with their lifestyles, they are still my friends. politically, most of my friends despise everything i stand for. while i do not agree with most of my friends beliefs, it does not mean that i will stay clear of them, because i see a person for a person, not for what they believe or how they act. and please do not try to compare interior mexico with border mexico. they are two separate entities in many ways. its kind of like trying to say that if you went to the olympics in china that you know china. people who attended the olympics had limited access to china, because china did not want the tourists to see certain things...like people hanging skinned dogs. the same applies to mexico. border and interior at two totally different places.
i guess everyone should feel ashamed also when they laugh at trey parker and matt stone having south park residents bury their head in sand to avoid hearing things. is "bee man" of the simpsons not a generalization of mexican culture given his accent and the fact that he owns a chihuahua. of course these are just cartoons, but it shows that even pop culture makes fun of these generalizations, and yet most people watching just laugh. sure its funny, but the are generalizations, and generalizations do come from so truths. the fact that most laugh at these generalizations would probably qualify them as bigots, because they themselves become desensitized to the generalizations and accept them...as opposed to discouraging the creators from making racial jokes.
as for restricted channeling of immigration. i am of the belief that america can only sustain so many immigrants at one time. that is the reason for it being so hard to come into america. we cant allow anyone and everyone who wants to come at whatever time to come, just because they want to be here. laws were made for a reason.
also, why does everyone get all upset that a state is enforcing "federal" laws? it is illegal to be in the country without documentation, correct? i dont understand why people get all butt-hurt when a state enforces what the feds should be doing.
Those Mexicans and other immigrants before them "breeding like rabbits" has been, to large extent, the engine of American growth for well over a century, and without it continuing the US has no hope of collecting sufficient tax revenues to prevent bankruptcy.
Anyway, this seems to have started with the Arizona ID law, which is just fraught with problems. First, it makes racial profiling perfectly legal and encouraged, entrenching racism in our legal system. But it's worse than just that.
Government is about allocating limited resources; limited-government conservatives should understand that all too well. This bill doesn't provide any new funding for additional officers to enforce immigration laws, but it "requires local law-enforcement agencies to enforce federal immigration law to the fullest extent permitted by federal law" and "would allow Arizonans to sue agencies if they don't believe an agency is complying with the law." (from an article in the Arizona Republic) Many Arizona police chiefs who are against the bill believe this means that they would have to prioritize the crime of illegal immigration over other types of crime.
While we need to control immigration, don't you think it should be pretty low on our priority list, at least lower than violent crime, burglary, theft and other crimes which seriously harm victims?
the biggest problem i have with any of this is that most illegal immigrants do not pay any tax. at the same time most income made here goes back to support family or they work here tax free then return home after a few years and live very well only to return and do it again when funds get low. i could care less where you come from just pay your taxes i think if you step up to get a taxpayer id then that should get you your citizenship. i also think if you do pay taxes in the country where you make your money then you should be bussed to the nearest border and tossed out on your ass.
the biggest problem i have with any of this is that most illegal immigrants do not pay any tax. at the same time most income made here goes back to support family or they work here tax free then return home after a few years and live very well only to return and do it again when funds get low. i could care less where you come from just pay your taxes i think if you step up to get a taxpayer id then that should get you your citizenship. i also think if you do pay taxes in the country where you make your money then you should be bussed to the nearest border and tossed out on your ass.
To a point you are right, though a lot pay taxes and do not file returns, and will never get Social Security. Also they pay the sales tax where they live, and buy goods from the community they live in. Lets be fair, for the most part any statistical area will see more revenue, the more people it has in it. Also I am sure most would jump at the chance to become citizens and pay the same taxes we do.
i think that there is a huge difference between sales tax and paying state and federal income tax. not to mention social security and medicare tax. i agree some would jump at the chance to pay taxes and gain citizenship but many support family back home and have no intention of staying here and would hook ass asap if they had to pay full taxes like everyone else. think how much revenue is being lost on taxes alone.