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well now some people are making sense regarding the tax situation and all the illegals
i also find it funny that the "sanctuary cities" are some of the toughest critics of this arizona law. however, when their leadership is asked if they would welcome with open arms an exodus of illegal immigrants to their cities, the response is either "we can't afford it", or there is no response. shows they do have common sense as to the expense the illegals cause...im sorry, i shouldn't say "the illegals" because some will think im being racist.
here it is. now maybe you all will stop believing when al sharpton AND pres obama say that you will go to jail for taking your kid to get ice cream. also, why does no one say that its racist for obama to say that he needs the overwhelming support of african-americans and latinos at the polls this november? is the white man no longer important?
i think that there is a huge difference between sales tax and paying state and federal income tax. not to mention social security and medicare tax. i agree some would jump at the chance to pay taxes and gain citizenship but many support family back home and have no intention of staying here and would hook ass asap if they had to pay full taxes like everyone else. think how much revenue is being lost on taxes alone.
They pretty much all pay social security and medicare tax, along with sales tax. Federal Income tax would be pretty tiny at the typical income levels of most illegals.
The idea of holding such a large group of human beings who are exactly the same stuff as you are, in such contempt, to make them into a faceless mass with a quick easy name to throw out, is pitiful. There is nothing about you that makes you better than any of those thousands or millions of people seeking some type of a chance in life. And the more you say, the more I think you are worse off than "the illegals."
2010: 3/12: The Bad Plus/Happy Apple/Buffalo Collision/The Bad Apple 6/10-13: Bonnaroo 6/19: Rock the Garden 7/30-31: Mid West Music Fest 8/21: Los Hombres Calientes 8/31: Marijuana Death Squads 9/11: The Book of Right On w/ City on the Make 9/23: Of Montreal w/ Janelle Monae 10/4: Broken Social Scene 11/23: Grinderman
The idea of holding such a large group of human beings who are exactly the same stuff as you are, in such contempt, to make them into a faceless mass with a quick easy name to throw out, is pitiful. There is nothing about you that makes you better than any of those thousands or millions of people seeking some type of a chance in life. And the more you say, the more I think you are worse off than "the illegals."
i NEVER claimed to be better, or worse, than anyone. i understand the "faceless mass" want a better life, and im all for them achieving their goals...so long as its done legally. once again, there was a law that was written many moons ago. why get all "butt-hurt" when a state wants to enforce that law? im sure that that there are many differences between myself and the "faceless mass", but one of the biggest ones is that i did not knowingly enter another country without documentation, thereby BREAK THAT COUNTRY'S LAWS.
think all you want of me, but it's not keeping me up at night. i could put a rassmusen poll showing that an overwhelming majority of arizonians agree with this law, but im sure it would be dismissed as a "right-leaning" poll.
oh yeah, and i dont go around defacing govt/public property with refried beans when i disagree with something.
That poor government property. The real issue here isn't even the illegal immigrants, right? The issue is all those people who are perfectly legal citizens that are going to be profiled and harassed and bossed around by law enforcement because they have brown-ish skin (or pretty much on whatever basis the cop feels like).
Also:
i figured a cop would not lie to a citizen like that
baaahahahahahahahaha
Note: I have not been reading this thread. Hijacking over and out.
once again, there was a law that was written many moons ago. why get all "butt-hurt" when a state wants to enforce that law?
Because by enforcing this law, they are breaking the 4th amendment. "Reasonable Suspicion" might as well read "Hispanic." Not only that, but immigration is not handled under state authority, it is a federal matter. I understand that the people of Arizona thought something needed to be done about immigration (I agree) and took it upon themselves to make legislation "fixing" this problem. Unfortunately, it's not Arizona's call to make. Nor is it any other state. This is a Federal issue. So I guess in a round about way its somewhat of a good thing this law has come out as I believe it will push Immigration Reform up the docket.
Another scary point is that people can sue if they don't think the cops are doing a good enough job enforcing this law. Think of all those implications. Would cops then have to prioritize crimes? Nothing good will come of this provision.
I don't disagree with with all of what Jigawig is saying. I'm against illegal immigration because, well, it's illegal. But I do understand that the current immigration progress is broken and difficult to accomplish. So I can't really say that I blame people for jumping the border. I love America and if I were born somewhere else, I'd try to get here too. I think we need to reform the Federal Immigration laws. We need to change the process for becoming a legal us citizen while at the same time making sure that our borders are safe. I mean, the process should be easier, but we shouldn't be letting just anyone in; there has to be some thing that keeps criminals, terrorists, etc out. Perhaps some type of worker program. As long as they are legal us citizens or part of a worker program or whatever, they will pay taxes. Legal = taxes. Illegal =/= taxes.
Overall, I think this Arizona immigration sucks. I understand they are trying to crack down on illegal immigration, but they don't have to give up civil liberties to do it. Some people may be fine with being stopped and asked for their papers. "I have nothing to hide" they usually say. But it's not about that. It's about having the right as an American to come and go as you please without being questioned by the law. Amendments kept going after #2 ya know.
oh yeah, and i dont go around defacing govt/public property with refried beans when i disagree with something.
Didn't that guy fly a plane into and IRS building in Texas?
In my cursory reading of the AZ law what bothers me most is the all but mandatory profiling of dark skinned people (especially citizens) and the ability of the general public to sue police for not enforcing the law. Police will be forced to pull over any non-white to avoid lawsuits and would likely still face a plethora of random suits about the few they don't search. This sounds like a great way to keep police from investigating violent crimes and bankrupting local police departments.
BTW, my wife is half Indian and is often mistaken for Hispanic. We definitely won't be visiting AZ anytime soon. We don't need the hassle of getting stopped constantly and fear whatever paperwork they'd want we'd be lacking.
Let me say that I think allowing illegals into the country with impunity drives down wages and causes a drain on already overstretched public services. But arresting them all and sending them back is impractical. And our corporate overlords would never allow the restriction on their cheap labor. Most federal immigration reform makes illegals already in the country with jobs pay a fine and work toward citizenship. It's not amnesty. And realistically it's about all we can do.
My solution would be to FORCE companies to document their workers and severely fine those caught breaking the law. If there are no jobs, why would people cross the border? But since these are the companies financing our elections it will never happen. Easier to just blame the little guy.
Last Edit: Apr 29, 2010 17:57:16 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
i work in the lawn care industry and untill recently the largest in the country. the landcare division of this company employs around 65 to 70 percent undocumented workers. these workers are paid cash no social security tax no federal tax no medicare tax. this one division of this company at this branch alone does nine million in revenue per year. petty cash reserves pay wages and are large for this purpose alone. the same can be said about the construction industry here. this has been reported several times and nothing ever happened not even a visit from the department of labor. paying sales tax would mean something if it were an option but its not. its not like you buy your groceries and say i feel like contributing to society today throw in another 9.25%. although its a federal issue i say hats off to arizona at least the state is trying to deal with an issue that its citizens feel is a problem instead of just looking the other way.
^^I say again, pass laws encouraging severe punishment of the companies who are flagrantly breaking the law and maybe even allow people to sue these companies for hiring illegals. Punishing all non-whites and suing the police is unfair and grossly inefficient. In our corporately controlled state, this will never happen but that doesn't negate its rightfulness.
Last Edit: Apr 29, 2010 21:50:17 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
with regards to your flying a plane into a building, I was replying to jesmith's post. There was a personal attack on me saying I'm no better than the illegals. I was basically saying that "I" don't do those horendous acts. I'm aware there are extremists on both sides, and any acts of vandalism or violence are dispicable. I do not commend those acts no matter how strongly I might disagree with a law that passes.
i work in the lawn care industry and untill recently the largest in the country. the landcare division of this company employs around 65 to 70 percent undocumented workers. these workers are paid cash no social security tax no federal tax no medicare tax. this one division of this company at this branch alone does nine million in revenue per year. petty cash reserves pay wages and are large for this purpose alone. the same can be said about the construction industry here. this has been reported several times and nothing ever happened not even a visit from the department of labor. paying sales tax would mean something if it were an option but its not. its not like you buy your groceries and say i feel like contributing to society today throw in another 9.25%. although its a federal issue i say hats off to arizona at least the state is trying to deal with an issue that its citizens feel is a problem instead of just looking the other way.
Well if you feel that strongly about it why don't you turn your company in. It is hypocritical, to biznatch about them not paying taxes, but then work for a company that pays them under the table. Then they can go hire Americans, pay them ten an hour plus benefits and everyone is happy right?
Jigawig
You need to work on your moral compass if you think saying Mexicans breed like rabbits is not racist, and saying you need support of a demographic to win an election is.
Honestly though the real problem up here is Texans. They all chew tobacco and spit it everywhere, most of my friends who wait tables just try to put them in their own section and ignore them because they are grossed out by the tobacco juice stains on their teeth. I swear to god the other day one of them was hitting on one of our women, we learned him good though I doubt he will try that again.
Last Edit: Apr 30, 2010 9:20:33 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
It says that illegal immigration isn't actually a crisis - that the number crossing is down and the number of deportations is up. And that Arizona "is a leader in an increasingly effective national movement with the federal government in cracking down on the employers of unauthorized immigrants and turning off the jobs magnet."
So is everyone freaked out over nothing? Is this just an issue that's finally getting spotlighted rather than one that is getting worse?
also, why does everyone get all upset that a state is enforcing "federal" laws? it is illegal to be in the country without documentation, correct? i dont understand why people get all butt-hurt when a state enforces what the feds should be doing.
You don't understand why people can be "butt-hurt" that the Constitution is violated? After I already explained why? Are you fucking serious?
I already explained why it's a federalism issue. Here's the Wiki starter definition, since you didn't seem to grasp what I meant last time I said it. Federalism is a system in which the power to govern is shared between national and central (state) governments, creating what is often called a federation. Proponents are often called federalists.
Not every government entity has the same powers. It's called "separation of powers," something you should remember from high school civics (although, I do realize that Texan culture* does not value quality civics education... you people* have recently decided that Thomas Jefferson's political views are too pinko for your school textbooks) * How do you like it?
Long story short, a state is prohibited from enforcing the national border for the same reasons that states are prohibited from minting their own currency.
think all you want of me, but it's not keeping me up at night. i could put a rassmusen poll showing that an overwhelming majority of arizonians agree with this law, but im sure it would be dismissed as a "right-leaning" poll.
Are you referring to the Rasmussen poll where 70-some% of Arizonans supported this measure... and a majority of that majority were worried that this law brings up Constitutional issues? Shouldn't that tell you something?
wolfman if you were to pay attention to what i wrote i stated that i no longer work for this company and also that they have been reported several times.
wolfman if you were to pay attention to what i wrote i stated that i no longer work for this company and also that they have been reported several times.
Sorry I read it wrong, so you are saying you landscape now ,and that no illegals work with you?
I do not work in landscaping at all and never have. lawn care consist of pre and post emergent application, core aerations, seedings.you have to test and be licensed by your state and renew your certification with the department of agriculture every three years. land care or landscaping consist of mowing, edging planting flowers and mulching. i watched several legal workers lose their job due to the fact that the company could pay the same wages but not have to pay for insurance,contribute to social security or have to worry about unemployment insurance for these non legal workers. as i said before the land care division of the company that i no longer work for employed many non legal workers for their landscaping crews.i now work for a lawn care company that does not provide land care or landscaping service. i hope this clears things up a little.
Post by jesmith5508 on May 1, 2010 16:59:57 GMT -5
Of course politicians create a law that punishes the people but not the companies. Ugh. Whoever said above that the law should target companies violating current laws, and make them pay and change their ways, is spot on.
2010: 3/12: The Bad Plus/Happy Apple/Buffalo Collision/The Bad Apple 6/10-13: Bonnaroo 6/19: Rock the Garden 7/30-31: Mid West Music Fest 8/21: Los Hombres Calientes 8/31: Marijuana Death Squads 9/11: The Book of Right On w/ City on the Make 9/23: Of Montreal w/ Janelle Monae 10/4: Broken Social Scene 11/23: Grinderman
and im all for them achieving their goals...so long as its done legally. once again, there was a law that was written many moons ago. why get all "butt-hurt" when a state wants to enforce that law? im sure that that there are many differences between myself and the "faceless mass", but one of the biggest ones is that i did not knowingly enter another country without documentation, thereby BREAK THAT COUNTRY'S LAWS.
I think you misinterpreted what I wrote. By saying you are no better than them, I meant that they have just as good a claim to being allowed to live here as you, and that they should be given just the same opportunities as you in terms of residency, holding a job, etc. etc. Because we are all people. Closed borders just seem like a pathetic excuse to legalize racism, classism, and exclusionism... if there are too many people here or in the world, encourage safe sex practices and people to not have as many children, but don't say some people can come to this piece of earth and some people can't. Even though the United States is a thing right now, realize that the ground it is sitting on has been here for millions of years longer than the US, and will be here millions of years after the US ceases to exist. It is just wrong to say any person on the planet has more legitimate of a reason to be allowed to even be in any one place over any other.
2010: 3/12: The Bad Plus/Happy Apple/Buffalo Collision/The Bad Apple 6/10-13: Bonnaroo 6/19: Rock the Garden 7/30-31: Mid West Music Fest 8/21: Los Hombres Calientes 8/31: Marijuana Death Squads 9/11: The Book of Right On w/ City on the Make 9/23: Of Montreal w/ Janelle Monae 10/4: Broken Social Scene 11/23: Grinderman
Post by stallion pt. 2 on May 1, 2010 18:44:17 GMT -5
I turn my back for a while and now my state is smack dab in the middle of an Inforoo political discussion. I haven't been this excited since that Chicagorooer guy got banned.
But seriously guys, reading articles and lisening to pundits weigh in from their safe, cozy spots in DC and NY will not help any of you understand the gravity of the situation. People are dying out here (border crossers, ranchers, & coyotes). Come on down and pay us a visit. Spend a few months on the border and you'll really get a feel for what's happening here. And don't forget to bring a water bottle (and don't touch your cell phone when your in the corridor.
edit------And whomever mentioned the poll saying most arizonans support the bill: those pollsters must not have been asking people at the dozens of protests that have been going on across the state since it passed.
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
^ Since we're unlikely to come visit, what are your thoughts on it? It seems like the Border Patrol has dropped the ball a little, and that's why the state feels the need to get involved, but it looks like the law being passed will probably not fix the problem and will likely create others. But most of what I have to rely on is articles, so it'd be great if you could expound on it...
I was just in NYC this weekend and there was a huge protest/march down Broadway. No sure what they were saying, since it was Spanish. Which I thought was odd. I mean, if you want to win the support of people who are against immigration, speaking in Spanish may not be the best way to get them on your side.
i think that there is a huge difference between sales tax and paying state and federal income tax. not to mention social security and medicare tax. i agree some would jump at the chance to pay taxes and gain citizenship but many support family back home and have no intention of staying here and would hook ass asap if they had to pay full taxes like everyone else. think how much revenue is being lost on taxes alone.
They pretty much all pay social security and medicare tax, along with sales tax. Federal Income tax would be pretty tiny at the typical income levels of most illegals.
If a business is honest and employs immigrants in the country on work visas, the business will withhold social security. Since work visas are temporary, the foreign worker will never collect. And, yes sales tax, vehicle tax, rent that covers property taxes owed by the actual property owner, gasoline tax, etc., etc, gets paid by immigrant workers, documented or not.
^ Since we're unlikely to come visit, what are your thoughts on it? It seems like the Border Patrol has dropped the ball a little, and that's why the state feels the need to get involved, but it looks like the law being passed will probably not fix the problem and will likely create others. But most of what I have to rely on is articles, so it'd be great if you could expound on it...
The Border Patrol do all they can, but they are severly understaffed and underfunded. Since they lack the manpower to even pretend to have a "human fence" securing every foot of the border, they have essentially ceded everything in the Chiricahua Corridor (the area around Naco/Douglas) to the cartels for al least ten miles north of the border. (and plenty of people live here, including that rancher that got murdered last month). Right now, the BP (don't laugh) waits about 50 miles north of the border (almost to Tucson), waits for citizens or they're blimp to spot a group of crossers, then heads south to meet them. Or they send one or two agents after them to track them with no night vision, no backup and until very recently, no radios(!!!!).
It's a mess down there. I don't want the military tromping around my neighborhoods, and I'm glad the violence hasn't crept up to Tucson yet, but regardless of arguments about policy changes to solve the root of the problem, SOMETHING needs to be done NOW to stop more Americans and Mexicans from dying.
Leo Banks writes very good articles for the Tucson Weekly about the border issue, and has won some awards I think. His latest is quite good:
As for the bill, I don't see how giving Sherrif Joe the right to pull over any Hispanic in Phoenix (almost 200 miles north of Mexico) makes anyone living in Douglas safer, not to mention it's just plain racist and unconstitutional. It passed because our state legeslature is made up of uneducated, reactionary rightwingers who are set on turning this state back to the 1800s in terms of race relations, and plenty of white folk are scared enough to get behind it. Or at least that's my take on the subject.
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
So the hot new debate of the day is about stripping the alleged NYC Times Square bomber of his rights. John McCain and sever others in the GOP think he should have no rights as an American citizen. Bizarrely, Glen Beck actually believes that this man should be read his rights as he is an American citizen. This may be the first time I've ever agreed with Glenn Beck.
So the hot new debate of the day is about stripping the alleged NYC Times Square bomber of his rights.
I've heard several reporters say Pakistanis hate Obama much more than Bush because of his use of predator drones in Pakistan. (Obama even joked about using predator drones to keep boys away from his young daughters; one of the most thoughtless, ill-considered jokes I've ever heard.)
It is no surprise a distraught Pakistani-American loaded his SUV with the things Americans use to define their summers (gasoline to cut lawns, propane to fuel barbecue grills, fertilizer to keep their lawns green and fireworks to celebrate the birth of the nation), and assemble these things into a bomb on Times Square. Warning sign... See: Wow, then I heard this one:
Last Edit: May 9, 2010 10:41:35 GMT -5 by RBRR - Back to Top
(Obama even joked about using predator drones to keep boys away from his young daughters; one of the most thoughtless, ill-considered jokes I've ever heard.)
I heard his joke about sending drones after the Jonas Brothers if they tried anything with his daughters and thought it was funny - certainly a long way from a contender for the most thoughtless and tasteless joke I've ever heard. Hell, I've heard worse stuff in the last 24 hours.
(Obama even joked about using predator drones to keep boys away from his young daughters; one of the most thoughtless, ill-considered jokes I've ever heard.)
I heard his joke about sending drones after the Jonas Brothers if they tried anything with his daughters and thought it was funny - certainly a long way from a contender for the most thoughtless and tasteless joke I've ever heard. Hell, I've heard worse stuff in the last 24 hours.
You don't hear the drones, and you don't hear the missile before it splatters you, your wife and children into chunks and strips among the pieces of surrounding rubble. And, the man who authorized the strikes makes jokes about using it to ward off poster boys. The joke was obscene and morally offensive to the extreme; especially from a man who is intimately familiar with the carnage caused by these weapons.