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Okay, so everyone is playing the sex card now... When I lived in Minnesota I was about 15-17 and not the most prudish person, I would wear mini skirts and tube tops, and go walking around like it was no one's business. I will never forget what my father told me one night as I was walking out the door at 11 p.m. to go to the park. He said, "If you go out there dressed like that and you get raped, don't expect me to be upset cause you brought it on yourself." Now, I don't agree with physical abuse or rape, and neither does my dad, but if you are dumb enough to get screwed up, and then walk off with complete strangers, you're on your own. I do hope she's alright, but I don't wanna hear anyone say that the women are never responsible, cause I'm a woman and I know that I've asked for it a couple times, I'm just lucky to have learned that lesson a while ago. It's like women who dress with their boobs hanging out, and then get mad when men look. Well, PUT THEM AWAY IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT! They're men, that's what they do. I look at boobs, not cause I'm gay, but cause they're there. So please, stop with the finger pointing.
I cannot believe that I read a post like this, and I have to say that I absolutely disagree with everything you just said here.
Rape is not about sex. It is about dominance and violence.
I can be dancing wasted on a table, naked, at a party full of strangers, and it is still not ok for one of them to touch me if I do not want them to. Now, would I choose to do that? Probably not. Are there sketchy dude's out there that women need to be aware of? Yes. We need to be aware of our surroundings, and look out for each other as much as possible. But no one can be in complete control all the time. The point is that it is quacked up men that think it's ok to push women around that is the problem. Not a mini skirt. It is not my responsibility to make sure some random man on the street does not commit a crime.
Also, keep in mind that most rapes are committed by an acquaintance, not 5 strangers you walked off into the woods with.
can words be violent? and thanks for repeating what everyone has been saying.
Post by dogfighter28 on Jun 24, 2009 15:11:18 GMT -5
I would have to say Filthy McNasty is not wrong in saying women bear some responsibility to fight against rape.
It's not their "fault" if it happens, but proper safeguards against it can easily be taken and significantly lower risk.
It's kind of like if I walked around East St. Louis with expensive jewelery and cash flowing out of my pockets. Did I deserve to get robbed? No. Was I stupid for walking around like that? Yes. Am I at fault for the act itself? No.
Saying it's okay for girls to walk around in as slutty clothes as possible and not worry about rape or trying to warn them against such things is not really something I agree with.
We should all bear responsibility for fighting against rape (and other crimes, for that matter), but that's not what she said...she said women "ask for it" by dressing provocatively, which is a crock.
People are not motivated to rape by sexual attraction...which is why we sometimes hear of even the elderly being raped. It involves sexual acts, but it is about dominance, submission, control and violence. Period.
But go ahead and continue to propagate the myth that women are somehow at fault...it serves us all so well.
It involves sexual acts, but it is about dominance, submission, control and violence. Period.
I'm curious....do you think that the desire for sex has nothing to do with the motivation? Like all rapists are only in it for the dominance and control?
I'm not arguing with you at all.....just would like your point of view on this question. I feel like it's too broad of a statement to say that it's not about sex.....for example - if at a college party a guy takes advantage of a drunk, semi-conscious girl and rapes her.......surely the motivation had to be a desire for sex in some cases like this?
again.....not trying to argue or cause a fight.....I genuinely just want to have a little discussion (if you're comfortable with that......if not that's fine too).
I think it's pseudo feminism to suggest women shouldn't be held accountable for behavior that puts them in risky situations. I'm not saying guys aren't devoid of responsibility either, but when you're talking about women who use alcohol and drugs in order to act out more sexually aggressive than they normally would, the line of what is acceptable and not acceptable is totally blurred.
Guys are at a massive disadvantage in this case because we inherently have the aggressive sex organ, so if you're sleeping with a girl who is just as drunk as you are, and she decides afterwards she wants to cry rape, what defense do you have? I've known people whose lives have been ruined because of situations like this. Even when your exonerated, there is always the stigma of rape.
but surely there's a difference between someone who is crying rape and someone who was actually raped.
wearing a short skirt or a low-cut top isn't license for a man to take advantage of a woman in any way, shape, or form. and just because a girl is drunk doesn't mean that she's partially to blame for being raped. rape is an aggressive act whose sole blame lies on the person committing the act. no girl asks for rape or deserves to be raped, regardless of what mental state she's in or what she's wearing. by that logic, no girl should ever get drunk around men because the possibility exists that she could potentially be raped.
One of the big problems is that people tend to think of it as a sexual act that happens to be violent. That logic allows for the " she was dressed so slutty, she was obviously looking for something to happen" kind of thinking. When, in reality, rape is not a violent act of sex. It is sexual act of violence, and there is a big difference in the two.
If it were about getting laid, when one person turned you down, you'd just hit on someone else.
I think it's pseudo feminism to suggest women shouldn't be held accountable for behavior that puts them in risky situations.
Hmm, I'd actually argue that it's patriarchal. And I certainly wasn't saying people shouldn't be held accountable for risky behaviors, only that the tired "she was asking for it" defense in reference to provocative dress is prehistoric -- and patriarchal -- and seeing that sentiment coming from a woman is just puzzling.
If I get in my cowboy gear and get drunk with my friends with the intention of going out and causing havoc at a bar, how accountable can you hold the hillbilly the punches out the front of my teeth?
Likewise if a girl goes out with the intention of getting laid, dresses like it, gets completely wasted and then ends up in a situation that crosses the line of what she intended to begin with, you guys don't see how her actions put herself in that situation?
I'm not justifying sexual assault, but I don't think it's dinosaur or patriarchal to suggest you guys are essentially saying all things being equal if a guy and a girl get totally wasted, the guy should have better judgment than the girl when it comes to sex because he has a smurf. Sorry. Don't buy it. Think it's a blanket statement that's as sexist as saying every girl who gets raped is asking for it.
Women have to be responsible too. And like I said, I think the attitude that guys know better is partially what puts a lot of girls in situations where guys DO take advantage of girls who are drunk. If you leave it up to the guy to make the decision on sex or no sex, he's usually going to choose sex.
Last Edit: Jun 24, 2009 18:53:25 GMT -5 by dudezer47 - Back to Top
Post by myscatterheart on Jun 24, 2009 18:55:49 GMT -5
That's the problem. How do you "dress like you want to get laid"? It's a matter of opinion. No one should see any way of dress as any sort of invitation for anything, ever. Unfortunately, that's not how the human brain seems to work.
If I get in my cowboy gear and get drunk with my friends with the intention of going out and causing havoc at a bar, how accountable can you hold the hillbilly the punches out the front of my teeth?
Likewise if a girl goes out with the intention of getting laid, dresses like it, gets completely wasted and then ends up in a situation that crosses the line of what she intended to begin with, you guys don't see how her actions put herself in that situation?
I'm not justifying sexual assault, but I don't think it's dinosaur or patriarchal to suggest you guys are essentially saying all things being equal if a guy and a girl get totally wasted, the guy should have better judgment than the girl when it comes to sex because he has a smurf. Sorry. Don't buy it. Think it's a blanket statement that's as sexist as saying every girl who gets raped is asking for it.
Women have to be responsible too. And like I said, I think the attitude that guys know better is partially what puts a lot of girls in situations where guys DO take advantage of girls who are drunk. If you leave it up to the guy to make the decision on sex or no sex, he's usually going to choose sex.
You have cowboy gear?
Alcohol and other risky behaviors weren't part of my stance...I was merely addressing someone's assertion that "slutty" attire invites rape.
If two otherwise responsible adults get hammered and have sex, in the absence of either one of them implicitly saying beforehand -- or during -- that they don't want to have sex, then I agree there should be no claim of rape.
That's the problem. How do you "dress like you want to get laid"? It's a matter of opinion. No one should see any way of dress as any sort of invitation for anything, ever. Unfortunately, that's not how the human brain seems to work.
A couple thoughts:
*I'm not saying provocative dress alone merits any sort of response. I'm not even saying you do this + this + this and you should get raped. What I'm saying is if you go out wanting to flirt and maybe hook up with guys, and you dress the part and you get totally blasted, you share some responsibility in putting yourself in a situation that led itself to your sexual assault. Sorry. Nobody forced you to drink too much or take too many pills or dress sexy or flirt with guys. You did it of your own free will, and you probably did it without friends looking out for you around.
*You do realize that most men require visual stimulation to become sexually aroused? So you're telling me when you want a guy to notice you, you're not dressing in a sexually provocative way? You can't identify what that means culturally in our country as you've cloistered yourself off? And you don't see how adding alcohol, drugs and an club or party atmosphere that's sexually charged might not add to visual stimulus of a hot girl wearing booty shorts, lingerie or a low cut shirt?
If I get in my cowboy gear and get drunk with my friends with the intention of going out and causing havoc at a bar, how accountable can you hold the hillbilly the punches out the front of my teeth?
Likewise if a girl goes out with the intention of getting laid, dresses like it, gets completely wasted and then ends up in a situation that crosses the line of what she intended to begin with, you guys don't see how her actions put herself in that situation?
I'm not justifying sexual assault, but I don't think it's dinosaur or patriarchal to suggest you guys are essentially saying all things being equal if a guy and a girl get totally wasted, the guy should have better judgment than the girl when it comes to sex because he has a smurf. Sorry. Don't buy it. Think it's a blanket statement that's as sexist as saying every girl who gets raped is asking for it.
Women have to be responsible too. And like I said, I think the attitude that guys know better is partially what puts a lot of girls in situations where guys DO take advantage of girls who are drunk. If you leave it up to the guy to make the decision on sex or no sex, he's usually going to choose sex.
You have cowboy gear?
Alcohol and other risky behaviors weren't part of my stance...I was merely addressing someone's assertion that "slutty" attire invites rape.
If two otherwise responsible adults get hammered and have sex, in the absence of either one of them implicitly saying beforehand -- or during -- that they don't want to have sex, then I agree there should be no claim of rape.
Yeah, unless you're walking around naked with a neon rape me sign attached to your head, I tend to agree that dress alone really isn't justification for any kind of sexual assault.
That said. I'm guessing the dad was imparting what is actually wise advice in an extreme manner. My guess is any father of a girl who dressed sexy and got raped because of it, would probably be more likely to take it out on the rapist than his daughter. I would hope.
Post by myscatterheart on Jun 24, 2009 19:14:42 GMT -5
I'm reading, and I'm seeing we're on the same page. All I'm saying here is that your way of dress should have no bearing on any situation, ever. I understand it does, yes. I don't believe that makes it right.
*You do realize that most men require visual stimulation to become sexually aroused? Yes. So you're telling me when you want a guy to notice you, you're not dressing in a sexually provocative way? Never have to this present day, no. You can't identify what that means culturally in our country as you've cloistered yourself off? Of course I can, I'm not an idiot. Just because something is socially acceptable doesn't mean it's right. And you don't see how adding alcohol, NO NO WORD!!! and an club or party atmosphere that's sexually charged might not add to visual stimulus of a hot girl wearing booty shorts, lingerie or a low cut shirt? I understand it, doesn't mean I'm going to blindly accept it.
Also, I appreciate your attempt to be condescending. It was really cute
Post by rooconteur on Jun 24, 2009 20:10:18 GMT -5
i agree it's 100% the guy's fault.
however, that doesn't mean the girl couldn't have prevented it. everytime you drugs and drinks to the point where you don't know what's going on, in a large public place, you are taking a risk. the chances of somebody taking advantage of you when you're fucked up, are 100x more than if you're coherent.
im not saying she was wrong for getting wasted, or bears responsibility. bonnaroo should be a place where you can lose your head and not have to worry about such things. i just think people (girls, especially) should use this as an example to be a little more cautious.
Post by Filthy McNasty on Jun 27, 2009 12:21:52 GMT -5
Not saying anything bad about anyone's sex in general, but whether guy or girl, always, ALWAYS be careful no matter where you are. Never let your guard down, cause you never know.
When I walk around my neighborhood, I usually do it in normal clothes. When I ride my motorcycle, I usually wear leathers and a helmet. Why? Because idiots on the road don't know how to f'n drive and there's a pretty good chance I'm going to have to slide my bike to prevent crashing into someone.
You have no control over what other people are going to do. That's scary nuts IMO. The best you can do is to try and minimize the chances of something bad happening to you. If you put yourself in the kind of situation where you are more vulnerable or more susceptible to being hurt, then you're being irresponsible.. My dad called it "Setting yourself up for failure."
The problem is I think there's blurring of arguments here. I agree that it is in no way OK for a guy to take advantage of a girl, even if she's drunk and naked dancing on a table. It's not right and there's no excuse for it. None, the guy is the only one at fault.
That doesn't make her any less responsible for her actions and what happens to her because of them.
Guys are at a massive disadvantage in this case because we inherently have the aggressive sex organ, so if you're sleeping with a girl who is just as drunk as you are, and she decides afterwards she wants to cry rape, what defense do you have? I've known people whose lives have been ruined because of situations like this. Even when your exonerated, there is always the stigma of rape.
This.
I just read this story a couple of days ago. It is VERY interesting. There is a movement to free this guy too.
He led his team to beat UCLA in the championship and got drafted in the MLS to play professional soccer. He was celebrating one weekend at college following the championship and now he is in jail for 6 years because a girl thinks he raped her. Barely any evidence against him, besides her "word," but her "word" isn't credible because she can't even remember the night, because she was so plastered. She says the man who raped her had "big lips" and an "island accent." She remembers hanging out with him a couple hours before it happened. No DNA tracing this guy to it either.
It's a fairly long story, but I highly recommend reading it. I'd like to hear your views.
2/5- Papadosio 3/3- MUSE 3/12- John Mayer 3/19- The Werks 3/31- Passion Pit 4/18- Ben Folds 4/20- Against Me! 6/10- Bonnaroo 6/30- Eric Clapton and Roger Daltrey
I was there in 2002 and 2003 (the first two years) as well as a few after that...And i don't remember ANYTHING like the stories that I've been reading on here.
Maybe I was just younger and nieve (17 yrs old for 2003) but I can't remember even HEARING about a single confrontation.
I haven't been since 2007, and have heard from people that the festival has begun to drag in more shadeballs since Panic and The Allman brothers have been replaced with the likes of Metallica and Kanye, but never wanted to believe it.
I was there in 2002 and 2003 (the first two years) as well as a few after that...And i don't remember ANYTHING like the stories that I've been reading on here.
Maybe I was just younger and nieve (17 yrs old for 2003) but I can't remember even HEARING about a single confrontation.
I haven't been since 2007, and have heard from people that the festival has begun to drag in more shadeballs since Panic and The Allman brothers have been replaced with the likes of Metallica and Kanye, but never wanted to believe it.
Somebody say it aint so...
2006 was my first year. From what I can tell, things have always been fairly shady and not just because of Metallica and Kanye. In fact, I'd say the bands have nothing to do with it. That's just hippies getting mad that it it's grown beyond being a jam festival and hipsters getting mad that well-known radio friendly bands are playing.
Festivals are shady by nature. Whether people want to admit it or not, when you're in a giant field with enough people to make a small city, something bad is bound to happen. Bonnaroo isn't a complete utopia, after all.
Post by Filthy McNasty on Jul 25, 2009 13:37:53 GMT -5
I think everyone should just shut up and not complain. If people don't like it, they shouldn't go. At least there is music and fun things to do. Everybody just needs to stop bitching and just relax and enjoy their time there. I had a blast this year, and I didn't complain. Everyone has to always have something negative to say about everything. Let's all be happy, and get along, and just enjoy what you have. Like I said, if you don't like it, don't go.