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If we look at Ray Lewis in a vacuum you are right. If you take consideration of intangibles and leadership of the VERY young roster i think you are crazy.. That defense from game 1-7 changed a whole lot.
It is like did Steve Jobs engineer ANY of Apple's post iPod devices himself? Or was he an intangible leader that ruthlessly inspired people to do their jobs well. We will never agree on this if we look at espn.com/stats because it is something unmeasured. You can only watch every game and try and analyze his impact on his players around him.
Do you really take the stance Ray Lewis in 2012-2013 was more of a liability to his team than an asset?
Last Edit: Aug 8, 2013 15:37:12 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Ray Lewis "aging" is just trying to justify the fact they lost the best defensive player on their team.
Not even close. Take another look at the roster.
25:1 does make sense I agree. I thought that was the "severely underrated".
Here is my original quote...
Ravens have a really tough schedule this year, but the rumors of their demise have been severely exaggerated.
Don't see anything about them being underrated by the oddsmakers, just stating that I think everyone who has written them off because of the loss of a few big names is wrong and doesn't understand the genius of Ozzie Newsome.
Well where did the 7:1 go from last year? Was it them winning the superbowl that went form 18:1 to 25:1? Was it them picking up players? Or.. what players left.. Hmm. Hmm.
Do you have any idea what caused it? Just haters? (sarcastic tone inserted here). There is causation one way or another. It either has to be a worse team because of injuries, players leaving, coaching or SOMETHING. (Worse team as measured by odds obviously subjective)
Last Edit: Aug 8, 2013 15:41:57 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
If we look at Ray Lewis in a vacuum you are right. If you take consideration of intangibles and leadership of the VERY young roster i think you are crazy.. That defense from game 1-7 changed a whole lot.
It is like did Steve Jobs engineer ANY of Apple's post iPod devices himself? Or was he an intangible leader that ruthlessly inspired people to do their jobs well. We will never agree on this if we look at espn.com/stats because it is something unmeasured. You can only watch every game and try and analyze his impact on his players around him.
Do you really take the stance Ray Lewis in 2012-2013 was more of a liability to his team than an asset?
I shouldn't have included 2011, since he still had some ups-and-downs that season, but I would absolutely say that he was a detriment in 2012 Baltimore Ravens' defense. His replacement played way, way, WAY better than Lewis did, and in the playoffs Ellerbe pretty much just spent his time covering for Ray's terrible play (he was dreadful in the Super Bowl, btw). From the point of Ellerbe entering the starting lineup through the end of their season he was fantastic. That can't be understated. He stepped in for the best LB of a generation and blew his play out of the water. Granted, Ray Ray was at the end, but there was an ocean of difference between the way the ILB position played with and without Ray.
So, in conclusion, I would 100% without hesitation say that Ray Lewis was a liability to his team in 2012 and his only real positive (motivation) was overstated.
If we look at Ray Lewis in a vacuum you are right. If you take consideration of intangibles and leadership of the VERY young roster i think you are crazy.. That defense from game 1-7 changed a whole lot.
It is like did Steve Jobs engineer ANY of Apple's post iPod devices himself? Or was he an intangible leader that ruthlessly inspired people to do their jobs well. We will never agree on this if we look at espn.com/stats because it is something unmeasured. You can only watch every game and try and analyze his impact on his players around him.
Do you really take the stance Ray Lewis in 2012-2013 was more of a liability to his team than an asset?
I shouldn't have included 2011, since he still had some ups-and-downs that season, but I would absolutely say that he was a detriment in 2012 Baltimore Ravens' defense. His replacement played way, way, WAY better than Lewis did, and in the playoffs Ellerbe pretty much just spent his time covering for Ray's terrible play (he was dreadful in the Super Bowl, btw). From the point of Ellerbe entering the starting lineup through the end of their season he was fantastic. That can't be understated. He stepped in for the best LB of a generation and blew his play out of the water. Granted, Ray Ray was at the end, but there was an ocean of difference between the way the ILB position played with and without Ray.
So, in conclusion, I would 100% without hesitation say that Ray Lewis was a liability to his team in 2012 and his only real positive (motivation) was overstated.
Ok... And Ellerbe left the Ravens too... Even if that is right this is about how much the Ravens D is hurting.. I mean all this means is the man that filled in for Ray well isn't there either.
I will agree Ellerbe is a beast. I mean that is un-deniable. But maybe my fandom of Ray Lewis putting Ravens D on the map for a decade is tainted my view of him. But all of their loses on D in the off-season is how I account for the odds disparity at the beginning of this season and also why i think their first game of the year the broncos will cover a spread that will already come in massive.
Last Edit: Aug 8, 2013 16:08:25 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
I shouldn't have included 2011, since he still had some ups-and-downs that season, but I would absolutely say that he was a detriment in 2012 Baltimore Ravens' defense. His replacement played way, way, WAY better than Lewis did, and in the playoffs Ellerbe pretty much just spent his time covering for Ray's terrible play (he was dreadful in the Super Bowl, btw). From the point of Ellerbe entering the starting lineup through the end of their season he was fantastic. That can't be understated. He stepped in for the best LB of a generation and blew his play out of the water. Granted, Ray Ray was at the end, but there was an ocean of difference between the way the ILB position played with and without Ray.
So, in conclusion, I would 100% without hesitation say that Ray Lewis was a liability to his team in 2012 and his only real positive (motivation) was overstated.
Ok... And Ellerbe left the Ravens too... Even if that is right this is about how much the Ravens D is hurting.. I mean all this means is the man that filled in for Ray well isn't there either.
I will agree Ellerbe is a beast. I mean that is un-deniable. But maybe my fandom of Ray Lewis putting Ravens D on the map for a decade is tainted my view of him. But all of their loses on D in the off-season is how I account for the odds disparity at the beginning of this season and also why i think their first game of the year the broncos will cover a spread that will already come in massive.
I want to be clear: There is no "if" about what I just said. Ellerbe was one of the best ILB's in the league overall and he didn't play full-time until Week 7 or 8. Ray Lewis was one of the worst LB's last year if you include his play in the playoffs, which is what got Ellerbe paid the way he did. I cannot understate just how out-of-his-got-damn-mind Ellerbe played in the playoffs. He looked like, dare I say it, a young Ray Lewis. He covered both sidelines, defended the pass and blitzed like a caged animal. It was truly spectacular to watch.
And I didn't bring up Ellerbe to show "omg, they LOST THIS GUY TOO!" Ellerbe came out of college undrafted from Georgia (a huge college program) and had never been a starter prior to last year, but he blew Ray's play out of the water. Even an average LB would've outperformed Ray considerably.
I love Ray Lewis as a player. I played LB growing up and I stole his "WHAT TIME IS IT!?" pump up speech and said it more times than I can count, but I don't know how anyone can objectively say that Ray wasn't a liability last year. The dude could barely run!
I think you're too rough on the Ravens overall, their defense was not good last year for most of the season and they still won games. I understand why people still associate that team with defense (they've been a defensive beast for as long as they've existed), but they win and lose on the offensive side of the ball now, not the defense.
Your odds should reflect whether you buy into Joe Flacco...Elite Quarterback and not much else.
Well we have a debate about Ravens Defense being "severely exaggerated" on demise because they lost key players that in my mind include Ray Lewis, Boldin and Ellerbe that is one debate. When you go on this rant about how great Ellerbe is (and he is great) and then say it isn't about him because it is about offense still does not mean Ravens defense didn't take huge hits in the off-season. This is like "Look your right they lost key defense, even if your wrong about Ray, but it is offense anyway so go Ravens"
All this "it doesn't matter because it is offensive game now" that is a WHOLE different can of worms. In that debate yes I agree Ravens will have to rely on Joe because their defense is in shambals and it is definitely been the nature of this league for at least the last 4 years.. Going back to how I think this is reflected in both futures odds and game 1 I will say that Joe Flacco didn't get worse after winning a superbowl so the 7:1 disparity is not coming from him. Nor do i think Joe Flacco with no deep threats stack up against Peyton with a nice deep threat and a top 4 TE in game 1.
Last Edit: Aug 8, 2013 16:52:44 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Don't see anything about them being underrated by the oddsmakers, just stating that I think everyone who has written them off because of the loss of a few big names is wrong and doesn't understand the genius of Ozzie Newsome.
Well where did the 7:1 go from last year? Was it them winning the superbowl that went form 18:1 to 25:1? Was it them picking up players? Or.. what players left.. Hmm. Hmm.
Do you have any idea what caused it? Just haters? (sarcastic tone inserted here). There is causation one way or another. It either has to be a worse team because of injuries, players leaving, coaching or SOMETHING. (Worse team as measured by odds obviously subjective)
Dude, my only point through all of this is that the Ravens are still a good team. You really ran with it. I don't ever recall saying they would repeat, or even play to the level of the team last year. Just that they are still a good team.
The only losses of consequence on defense this year are Kruger and Ellerbe. But when you factor in the additions of Elvis Dummervil, Chris Canty, and have a healthy Terrell Suggs and Ladarius Webb, I think its a net positive. We can make a big deal out of the leadership of Lewis and Reed, and I think there is something to that, but not enough to make up for the age, health, and production dropoffs.
Well we have a debate about Ravens Defense being "severely exaggerated" on demise because they lost key players that in my mind include Ray Lewis, Boldin and Ellerbe that is one debate. When you go on this rant about how great Ellerbe is (and he is great) and then say it isn't about him because it is about offense still does not mean Ravens defense didn't take huge hits in the off-season. This is like "Look your right they lost key defense, even if your wrong about Ray, but it is offense anyway so go Ravens"
All this "it doesn't matter because it is offensive game now" that is a WHOLE different can of worms. In that debate yes I agree Ravens will have to rely on Joe because their defense is in shambals and it is definitely been the nature of this league for at least the last 4 years.. Going back to how I think this is reflected in both futures odds and game 1 I will say that Joe Flacco didn't get worse after winning a superbowl so the 7:1 disparity is not coming from him. Nor do i think Joe Flacco with no deep threats stack up against Peyton with a nice deep threat and a top 4 TE in game 1.
The point is the defense wasn't good last year. It was 17th by standard metrics , 22nd by Football Outsiders and 22nd by PFF. The defense is not what lead it to a Super Bowl. The biggest issue to me is replacing Boldin, who plays tough and makes catches a lot of receivers would probably duck out of. Ray Rice is a beast that they can rely on and Flacco is proving to play well in big games. They're not all that different from the Giants when they last won. They got hot at the right time and rode a hot-handed QB to a Super Bowl.
The core of that team is still there, that's what you take your chance on. When it comes down to it, are you going to put your money on Josh Freeman over Joe Flacco? Because you're high off your ass if you are.
I'm top half easily, looking at a deep playoff run with a bunch of these guys drafting like shiz.
This is something you can usually declare before the first week of preseason games.
Related question: Why the hell are you drafting before the first week of preseason games?
It's not ideal, I know. But half of the league is in England or Ireland, five hours ahead of the US east coast. It'd be tough to get everyone (or more than half) together at the same time. So we have an offline draft. The bad part is, again with the time gap, you'll have a round go for two days - seven picks within two hours but stuck 16 hours waiting for the next guy on the other side of the Atlantic.
Between all the injuries from our team and theirs, the huge Week One rivalry match of Saints v. Falcons may seem like a preseason game. A fair amount of training camp 2s will be starting
Manning only throwing for 13 yards and 50%. Might as well pack it in. The season's over.
I enjoyed how, near the end of the Cin-Atl game, the announcer said "We all know the score in preseason games means basically nothing, but Cincinatti has to feel good about this." First week and the announcer are already downplaying the preseason. Nice.
The preseason is important, just not in the way the announcers try to make it seem. God forbid those clowns use the week they're watching practices to get some in-depth info on a positional battle or something. I think the closest they got to that line of talking in the CIN/ATL game was when Gruden said someone is going to be "tough to cut," which isn't even really acknowledging the positional battle they are in.
If you pose the preseason as a faceless camp fodder playing other faceless camp fodder, no one will give a sh*t and that's been the case for as long as I can remember.
This is something you can usually declare before the first week of preseason games.
Related question: Why the hell are you drafting before the first week of preseason games?
It's not ideal, I know. But half of the league is in England or Ireland, five hours ahead of the US east coast. It'd be tough to get everyone (or more than half) together at the same time. So we have an offline draft. The bad part is, again with the time gap, you'll have a round go for two days - seven picks within two hours but stuck 16 hours waiting for the next guy on the other side of the Atlantic.
Why are you picking on people who don't even know that a football is oblong?
It's not ideal, I know. But half of the league is in England or Ireland, five hours ahead of the US east coast. It'd be tough to get everyone (or more than half) together at the same time. So we have an offline draft. The bad part is, again with the time gap, you'll have a round go for two days - seven picks within two hours but stuck 16 hours waiting for the next guy on the other side of the Atlantic.
Why are you picking on people who don't even know that a football is oblong?
This is what I been able to do so far:
4. Peyton Manning 21. CJ Spiller 28. Steven Jackson 45. Roddy White 52. Lamar Miller 69. Le'veon Bell 76. Antonio Brown
You might be asking why take Peyton fourth? QBs get way more point value than in a normal league, so most of the first round sees QBs picked and major RB's get pushed to the second round.
What kind of league are you in? Those picks where you got them is really weird
The QB in the first round I can understand if it's a 6-point passing TD league or 25-yard-per-point passing yards or something like that.
Not a fan of your team, LD, to put it bluntly. But what do I know, I think I came close to last in the thunderdome last year after all my good players got hurt.
7 points for a passing TD and a point for 25 passing yards. 1 each QB, WR, RB, TE. Three W/R/T flex spots.
I'm thinking I have four 1000 yard rushers, or close to it. I got a lot of sleeper picks, but at least a few of them should pull off big numbers. Everyone I have is #1 on the depth chart at their position. I still need a TE, but only two other teams are left without one and Jermichael Finley, Owen Daniels, Martellus Bennett, and Jared Cook are still on the board.
But when you factor in the additions of Elvis Dummervil, Chris Canty, and have a healthy Terrell Suggs and Ladarius Webb, I think its a net positive.
Chris Canty is one of the most injury prone players to ever wear a Giants uniform. You will be disappointed with him over the life of his contract. When Jerry Reese lets someone walk, its for good cause.
He signed a 6-year $42 million pact with the Giants to be a star of their DL. He signed a 3-year $8 million deal with the Ravens to be a rotational interior pressure DL.
First off, Flanzo, Chris Canty was never the star of the Giants DL. Nor was he supposed to be. We had Osi Umenyiora in his prime and Justin Tuck. Then we had Justin Tuck, JPP, and a waning Osi. Canty was always a role player on that DL.
Moreover, we cut him after his 4th year because he only played about 75% of those games, and was playing hurt and at a low level for all but one of those 4 seasons. He turns 31 in November and is already broken down. I don't regret letting him go. Not even one bit.
Well, then. I didn't say THE star, I said A star. You pay a guy $8million to be a star, it's that simple. If he was intended to be a role player than Jerry Reese should get smacked for one of the worst role player contracts ever doled out by an NFL club. If he was intended to be a stud (which he was), then Reese swung and missed on a contract, which happens to everyone. I'd rather it be "hey, we thought he was going to be really good, but he wasn't" instead of "hey, I paid a guy an elite-player's salary to be a rotational guy."
And your second comment proves you completely missed the point. The way you feel about Canty has no bearing on the way a Raven's fan would. Canty is playing for less than $3m a season and only about half of it is guaranteed.
To put it another way: The Ravens are paying Canty his YEARLY AVERAGE from his Giants deal over three years combined. If he plays the way he did for the Giants on the Ravens, that is acceptable for his contract.
And I'm not as much saying that its a bad contract. Just that its misinformed to toss out Canty's name with "people who will help the Ravens overcome the loss of Ellerbe and Kruger," as if he's more than just a negligible addition. Like you said, Canty is merely a rotational DL at this point in his career.
Yes, but rotational guys can have a huge impact (think Mark Anderson on the Bears).
Mentioning Canty as part of the reason isn't necessarily wrong. If he said "why the hell do we need Ellerbe and Kruger, WE HAVE CANTY!" I would agree with you. But he's part of the equation and sometimes if two guys leave you bring in more guys to fill the void if the only thing available are part-time players. In the case of the Ravens, they added Canty and Spears to presumably rotate on and off the DL since Spears is a better run stuffer and Canty is a better pass rusher. Both are cheap players, but alone they're incredibly flawed and not much to speak of. But they're not alone and a flawed player can be a cog in the machine on a winning team if he's kept in a role that leaves little chance that he gets exposed.
Post by Mista Don't Play on Aug 9, 2013 13:51:08 GMT -5
Nothing really left me for me to add...
I wasn't trying to make the case the Canty was going to single handedly save the Ravens this year, I think when you add up all the new parts the defense will be better overall. They are going to give up some big plays, because they are a little weak in the secondary, I think, but the front seven will be strong, and they will have, possibly, the best pass rush in the league this year.
So which QB-deficient team out there is willing to give up a 1st rounder for Captain Kirk Cousins? I'll hang up and listen.
I doubt Washington is looking to move him, until next offseason, before the final year of his contract. They probably want to keep him as health insurance for now. Obviously the right offer could change all of that.