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I think Cole in the 3 spot for the 2010s is about right. I think people here underestimate his level of popularity and respect outside of here just because a lot of Inforooers don't care for him. Imo the 3 and 4 spots are pretty debatable. Kanye was strong in the first half of the decade but then did a lot of damage to his legacy in the second half. Tyler ascended pretty strongly with Flower Boy in 2017 but he was a bit more niche before that. 🤷♂️
5.5/four tet, daphni b2b floating points, avalon emerson 5.12/neil young 5.19/mannequin pussy 5.21/serpentwithfeet 5.25/hozier 6.12-16/bonnaroo 6.28/goose 6.29/goose 9.17/the national + the war on drugs 9.23/sigur ros 9.27-29/making time 10.17/air
I think Cole in the 3 spot for the 2010s is about right. I think people here underestimate his level of popularity and respect outside of here just because a lot of Inforooers don't care for him. Imo the 3 and 4 spots are pretty debatable. Kanye was strong in the first half of the decade but then did a lot of damage to his legacy in the second half. Tyler ascended pretty strongly with Flower Boy in 2017 but he was a bit more niche before that. 🤷♂️
yeah in 2016 there's a huge gap between the two on the Bonnaroo poster and Cole hasn't done anything to drop even if Tyler's rising
I think Tyler is the answer for 4. He's somehow kinda more culturally relevant than even his music is popular. but could be future or j cole. i think my bubble is just more removed from them
5.5/four tet, daphni b2b floating points, avalon emerson 5.12/neil young 5.19/mannequin pussy 5.21/serpentwithfeet 5.25/hozier 6.12-16/bonnaroo 6.28/goose 6.29/goose 9.17/the national + the war on drugs 9.23/sigur ros 9.27-29/making time 10.17/air
Post by Jake Jortles on May 29, 2021 12:23:16 GMT -5
Reasonable Doubt is so great. 8 bangers in a row to start it with legendary moments all over the album.
Brooklyns finest Biggie showdown. Dead Presidents and Can I Live are all timers. I will debate with anyone about D’Evils being the best written hiphop song ever from a lyrics standpoint. 22 Twos and Friend or Foe are obviously creative highs in his career. Regrets is an amazing closer.
I would say the foxy track sucks. Cashmere thoughts and Bring it on are good not great. And the Bleek track is bad.
I think Jays performance on RD is one of the best ever by a rapper though and if you held up his verses side by side to Nas on Illmatic, Nas would clearly be less advanced and certainly less charismatic.
Reasonable Doubt is so great. 8 bangers in a row to start it with legendary moments all over the album.
Brooklyns finest Biggie showdown. Dead Presidents and Can I Live are all timers. I will debate with anyone about D’Evils being the best written hiphop song ever from a lyrics standpoint. 22 Twos and Friend or Foe are obviously creative highs in his career. Regrets is an amazing closer.
I would say the foxy track sucks. Cashmere thoughts and Bring it on are good not great. And the Bleek track is bad.
I think Jays performance on RD is one of the best ever by a rapper though and if you held up his verses side by side to Nas on Illmatic, Nas would clearly be less advanced and certainly less charismatic.
Post by Jake Jortles on May 29, 2021 13:17:21 GMT -5
Another way I think about it is like a rapper version of WAR. Not so say Raekwon or Prodigy are standard replacement value, but to me, if it was Prodigy or Raekwon instead of Nas on the Illmatic beats, I’m just not sure how much value is lost. Whereas if it was either of them on the Reasonable Doubt beats, the album would be many, many degrees worse.
And as a random detour, its from this WAR perspective that I think Biggie is the best rapper of all time. I dont think there has ever been a rapper that elevates his / her production more than Biggie. Regardless of if the beat is good or bad. If you substitute not only a standard rapper, but literally any rapper ever for biggie on any beat, the song is worse because of it.
I just remember having a conversation with Julie about Kendrick vs Biggie and Ill just never understand it because to me if you swap out Kendrick for like fucking Saba on TPAB I actually dont know how much more or less I’d listen to the album.
Obviously nobody is going to like these specific takes, but I would be interested to hear who you guys think are the best rappers ever from this perspective as opposed to comparing careers... like Kanye does everything for me from a career / output perspective. I think he may be the best hiphop artist ever. But he does almost nothing for me from a pure “how much does the rapper add to the song more than the average rapper perspective.”
Agree with Juggs on RD. Amazing for a debut but I don't think he had really perfected his flow yet - he doesn't fall in and out of the groove as effortlessly as he does in later records.
5.5/four tet, daphni b2b floating points, avalon emerson 5.12/neil young 5.19/mannequin pussy 5.21/serpentwithfeet 5.25/hozier 6.12-16/bonnaroo 6.28/goose 6.29/goose 9.17/the national + the war on drugs 9.23/sigur ros 9.27-29/making time 10.17/air
Agree with Juggs on RD. Amazing for a debut but I don't think he had really perfected his flow yet - he doesn't fall in and out of the groove as effortlessly as he does in later records.
Definitely dont hate this take. Never Change is like my all time favorite Jay in and out of the groove song and I flip back and forth between thinking that era is him at his oeak powers or the more straight forward lyrical assault on RD and Vol 1 being that.
Another way I think about it is like a rapper version of WAR. Not so say Raekwon or Prodigy are standard replacement value, but to me, if it was Prodigy or Raekwon instead of Nas on the Illmatic beats, I’m just not sure how much value is lost. Whereas if it was either of them on the Reasonable Doubt beats, album would many, many degrees worse.
And as a random detour, its from this WAR perspective that I think Biggie is the best rapper of all time. I dont think there has ever been a rapper that elevates his / her production more than Biggie. Regardless of if the beat is good or bad. If you substitute not only a standard rapper, but literally any rapper ever for biggie on any beat, the song is worse because of it.
I just remember having a conversation with Julie about Kendrick vs Biggie and Ill just never understand it because to me if you swap out Kendrick for like fucking Saba on TPAB actually just dont know how much more or less I’d listen to the album.
Obviously nobody is going to like these specific takes, but I would be interested to hear who you guys think are the best rappers ever from this perspective as opposed to comparing careers... like Kanye does everything for me from a career / output perspective. Like I think he may be the best hiphop artist ever. But he does almost nothing for me from a pure “how much does the rapper add to the song more than the average rapper perspective.”
I haven't heard of this WAR (is that an acronym for something?) perspective before, but it's def an interesting way to evaluate artists. I think it doesn't really account for the creative decisions an artist makes though, or how their personality impacts the song. Like a lot of Kanye's lyrics would be laughed out of the room if anyone other than Kanye said them. He's got some cornball lines that still hit just because he's Kanye. The opposite is true too - Eminem still has some good lines in his music but they come across cornier now because his stock is much lower and he lacks that current cultural value. That sorta thing is pretty intangible and not easily replaced. And like for Kendrick/Saba, I think they're pretty similar in ability to rap (in terms of delivery and breath control and whatnot), but Saba isn't making jazz fusion spoken word verses utilizing views on the worth of men in relationships as a metaphor for the Black experience in America. That's the shit that puts Kenny on another level.
Others just can't do what Jay/Kanye/Kendrick do, and they all make excellent, unique music. That puts them all in the same tier. What they add to a track creatively is leagues above your average rapper.
5.5/four tet, daphni b2b floating points, avalon emerson 5.12/neil young 5.19/mannequin pussy 5.21/serpentwithfeet 5.25/hozier 6.12-16/bonnaroo 6.28/goose 6.29/goose 9.17/the national + the war on drugs 9.23/sigur ros 9.27-29/making time 10.17/air
Another way I think about it is like a rapper version of WAR. Not so say Raekwon or Prodigy are standard replacement value, but to me, if it was Prodigy or Raekwon instead of Nas on the Illmatic beats, I’m just not sure how much value is lost. Whereas if it was either of them on the Reasonable Doubt beats, album would many, many degrees worse.
And as a random detour, its from this WAR perspective that I think Biggie is the best rapper of all time. I dont think there has ever been a rapper that elevates his / her production more than Biggie. Regardless of if the beat is good or bad. If you substitute not only a standard rapper, but literally any rapper ever for biggie on any beat, the song is worse because of it.
I just remember having a conversation with Julie about Kendrick vs Biggie and Ill just never understand it because to me if you swap out Kendrick for like fucking Saba on TPAB actually just dont know how much more or less I’d listen to the album.
Obviously nobody is going to like these specific takes, but I would be interested to hear who you guys think are the best rappers ever from this perspective as opposed to comparing careers... like Kanye does everything for me from a career / output perspective. Like I think he may be the best hiphop artist ever. But he does almost nothing for me from a pure “how much does the rapper add to the song more than the average rapper perspective.”
I haven't heard of this WAR (is that an acronym for something?) perspective before, but it's def an interesting way to evaluate artists. I think it doesn't really account for the creative decisions an artist makes though, or how their personality impacts the song. Like a lot of Kanye's lyrics would be laughed out of the room if anyone other than Kanye said them. He's got some cornball lines that still hit just because he's Kanye. The opposite is true too - Eminem still has some good lines in his music but they come across cornier now because his stock is much lower and he lacks that current cultural value. That sorta thing is pretty intangible and not easily replaced. And like for Kendrick/Saba, I think they're pretty similar in ability to rap (in terms of delivery and breath control and whatnot), but Saba isn't making jazz fusion spoken word verses utilizing views on the worth of men in relationships as a metaphor for the Black experience in America. That's the shit that puts Kenny on another level.
Others just can't do what Jay/Kanye/Kendrick do, and they all make excellent, unique music. That puts them all in the same tier. What they add to a track creatively is leagues above your average rapper.
I dont watch baseball, but I believe it started there and stands for Wins Above Replacement to try to determine how much value a player adds or reduces compared to the league avg player. Could be off on the specifics but thats the general concept.
The song that made me start thinking about rapping greatness like this is The What. I remember 13 years ago when I first dove into the genre I was confused by why ppl thought Biggie was so great. Like bro hes nowhere near as great as Eminem look at him go with all the lyrics and technical proficiency!
I always loved the albums but then it just clicked for me one day. How much would I listen to Machine Gun Funk if it was Talib Kweli on it? Or anyone else? Or The Warning?
Then The What just kinda sunk into me over time as the perfect example. Biggies first verse is just so... idk... can barely describe it but I could get emotional listening to it in the right mood because of how much he just fucking owns the song. Its just like “yeah this is biggies beat” and then Method Man, the most swagger filled rapper of the wu tang clan and one of the most charismatic rappers ever comes in kinda cuts him off and although he does a great job and its part of why the song is so good, but the whole time Im just like “hey can we get Biggie back in here” and by biggie is like “honeys feel me deep in their placenta” its like “daddy is fucking home”. Again this is so, so personal of an opinion. There may be people who are like i think Method is better on that song, but to me its a shining example of how Biggie just sinks into a song and dominates it at the same time. If you lined every rapper ever up on one beat, I would be waiting for Biggies verse. Other rappers would be more exciting or more lyrically advanced, but I wouldnt have the confidence in any rapper being more simultaneously appropriate, commanding and exciting on the beat.
Btw I think another interesting song is I Love the Dough on Life After Death because I do think Jay is #2 for me. As you pointed out, not sure if Jay was in prime form. So I think Biggie comes off as the alpha / father on that song. But if you had Blueprint Jay and Biggie on say the International Players Anthem beat (whatever one of your favorite beats is), whos song would it have felt like? To me thats the conversation for greatest rapper of all time. For someone else that conversation might be between Kendrick and someone else.
But to one of your points, I do think the creative directions rappers take can be included in the conversation. If you give someone else the friend or foe beat, how likely are they to do something interesting like Jay did with it? So credit to the way Kendrick or Eminem can make a shitty beat into a worthwhile song based on the creative vocal content. But I am excluding any production value / decisions that they are adding.
Post by Larry Farnsworth on May 29, 2021 18:33:15 GMT -5
Yeah, Biggie is the best of all time, hands down imo. All of what is being said is true.
I think Nas is super overrated for what it’s worth. My position on Jay has already been stated - RD became a classic in hindsight when people wanted to justify him as one of the greats, but it’s merely a good album IMO. Blueprint is his best, followed by the Black Album.
Big Pun might be the most underrated rapper of all time, followed closely by Sean Price.
Yeah, Biggie is the best of all time, hands down imo. All of what is being said is true.
I think Nas is super overrated for what it’s worth. My position on Jay has already been stated - RD became a classic in hindsight when people wanted to justify him as one of the greats, but it’s merely a good album IMO. Blueprint is his best, followed by the Black Album.
Big Pun might be the most underrated rapper of all time, followed closely by Sean Price.
Pun is ridiculously sick. Big L doesn't get enough cred either.
5.5/four tet, daphni b2b floating points, avalon emerson 5.12/neil young 5.19/mannequin pussy 5.21/serpentwithfeet 5.25/hozier 6.12-16/bonnaroo 6.28/goose 6.29/goose 9.17/the national + the war on drugs 9.23/sigur ros 9.27-29/making time 10.17/air
I haven't heard of this WAR (is that an acronym for something?) perspective before, but it's def an interesting way to evaluate artists. I think it doesn't really account for the creative decisions an artist makes though, or how their personality impacts the song. Like a lot of Kanye's lyrics would be laughed out of the room if anyone other than Kanye said them. He's got some cornball lines that still hit just because he's Kanye. The opposite is true too - Eminem still has some good lines in his music but they come across cornier now because his stock is much lower and he lacks that current cultural value. That sorta thing is pretty intangible and not easily replaced. And like for Kendrick/Saba, I think they're pretty similar in ability to rap (in terms of delivery and breath control and whatnot), but Saba isn't making jazz fusion spoken word verses utilizing views on the worth of men in relationships as a metaphor for the Black experience in America. That's the shit that puts Kenny on another level.
Others just can't do what Jay/Kanye/Kendrick do, and they all make excellent, unique music. That puts them all in the same tier. What they add to a track creatively is leagues above your average rapper.
I dont watch baseball, but I believe it started there and stands for Wins Above Replacement to try to determine how much value a player adds or reduces compared to the league avg player. Could be off on the specifics but thats the general concept.
The song that made me start thinking about rapping greatness like this is The What. I remember 13 years ago when I first dove into the genre I was confused by why ppl thought Biggie was so great. Like bro hes nowhere near as great as Eminem look at him go with all the lyrics and technical proficiency!
I always loved the albums but then it just clicked for me one day. How much would I listen to Machine Gun Funk if it was Talib Kweli on it? Or anyone else? Or The Warning?
Then The What just kinda sunk into me over time as the perfect example. Biggies first verse is just so... idk... can barely describe it but I could get emotional listening to it in the right mood because of how much he just fucking owns the song. Its just like “yeah this is biggies beat” and then Method Man, the most swagger filled rapper of the wu tang clan and one of the most charismatic rappers ever comes in kinda cuts him off and although he does a great job and its part of why the song is so good, but the whole time Im just like “hey can we get Biggie back in here” and by biggie is like “honeys feel me deep in their placenta” its like “daddy is fucking home”. Again this is so, so personal of an opinion. There may be people who are like i think Method is better on that song, but to me its a shining example of how Biggie just sinks into a song and dominates it at the same time. If you lined every rapper ever up on one beat, I would be waiting for Biggies verse. Other rappers would be more exciting or more lyrically advanced, but I wouldnt have the confidence in any rapper being more simultaneously appropriate, commanding and exciting on the beat.
Btw I think another interesting song is I Love the Dough on Life After Death because I do think Jay is #2 for me. As you pointed out, not sure if Jay was in prime form. So I think Biggie comes off as the alpha / father on that song. But if you had Blueprint Jay and Biggie on say the International Players Anthem beat (whatever one of your favorite beats is), whos song would it have felt like? To me thats the conversation for greatest rapper of all time. For someone else that conversation might be between Kendrick and someone else.
But to one of your points, I do think the creative directions rappers take can be included in the conversation. If you give someone else the friend or foe beat, how likely are they to do something interesting like Jay did with it? So credit to the way Kendrick or Eminem can make a shitty beat into a worthwhile song based on the creative vocal content. But I am excluding any production value / decisions that they are adding.
Couldn't tell you the last time I listened to The What but "hoes are irritating like hiccups" had me cracking up. Biggie isn't my #1 overall (3K for me but it depends on the day) but I do agree his delivery is unrivaled. His voice very much says "listen to me now", and that's invaluable.
5.5/four tet, daphni b2b floating points, avalon emerson 5.12/neil young 5.19/mannequin pussy 5.21/serpentwithfeet 5.25/hozier 6.12-16/bonnaroo 6.28/goose 6.29/goose 9.17/the national + the war on drugs 9.23/sigur ros 9.27-29/making time 10.17/air