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If there were enough people interested to have replacements at any point in the game, modkilling for inactivity instantly becomes an obsolete option.
we had 2 people chomping at the bit to play after the 1st day last game, if we simply had 12 positions to fill for a game (one extra in case someone missed 2 votes) the start up wouldn't really take that much longer. The interest is there.
That's what you guys should do then - replace people that are inactive, add some time to the deadline when this happens.
Emoney serves more of a purpose than any of you, especially Nate, whose incessant, garbled ramblings are so mindless and pointless that I get depressed just seeing them.
Mike D
Bonnafunky Dirtyroo King of the Smileys :-)
I guess I am trying to understand why you think we need to have a reserve player? Or what would be so bad about finishing with en even number of players? I am not necessarily opposed to it, but I don't really understand the reasoning or need.
I like the autolynch and end the day as if the missing player were voted out. I think having an odd number of players at the end of each round is crucial to the determination of a winner. If we have an even number of players and it ends up as 2-2 Mafia/Townie then the game is essentially over anyway. If the Town votes off a Mafia then it ends up 1-1 Townie/Mafia and if the Town votes off a Townie the Mafia win. We never get to that wonderful 2-1 Townie/Mafia mix that we all love to see.
I dont like the idea of the mafia getting the whack because of an AWOL but keeping the numbers odd is more important in my mind. Adding players mid stream could really make for messy dynamics. Not a fan of that idea so guess i say the AWOL is the Lynch for the day and move on. The AWOL could be Mafia.. it's not unheard of.
Nice job on the rule rewrite Mike.
Like the move to 24 hours, and allowing closing on the weekend. Its very easy for ref to say, unless there are objections this round will close on Sunday as long as its done during the week (by Friday). Objections can be PM:d and held in confidence.
Not a rule.. or guess it could be, more procedure... Sometimes it can be weeks between the start of the signups to the start of the game. I'd like to see a role call be done just prior to game start. If i had a dime for every time I've seen " I did not realize the game had started..'
Ex. In the current (just finished game), the next one up to ref would post
Mafia XX will begin Monday 9/1. PLayers are:
List players
Roll call begins now. You have 24/36? hours to acknowledge the game starts this Monday. If you do not acknowledge by Sunday at noon?? you will be replaced and game play will begin Monday as scheduled.
Some spewage to that affect. (But make sure there are players in the wings in case.)
I dont like the idea of the mafia getting the whack because of an AWOL but keeping the numbers odd is more important in my mind. Adding players mid stream could really make for messy dynamics. Not a fan of that idea so guess i say the AWOL is the Lynch for the day and move on. The AWOL could be Mafia.. it's not unheard of.
Nice job on the rule rewrite Mike.
Like the move to 24 hours, and allowing closing on the weekend. Its very easy for ref to say, unless there are objections this round will close on Sunday as long as its done during the week (by Friday). Objections can be PM:d and held in confidence.
Not a rule.. or guess it could be, more procedure... Sometimes it can be weeks between the start of the signups to the start of the game. I'd like to see a role call be done just prior to game start. If i had a dime for every time I've seen " I did not realize the game had started..'
Ex. In the current (just finished game), the next one up to ref would post
Mafia XX will begin Monday 9/1. PLayers are:
List players
Roll call begins now. You have 24/36? hours to acknowledge the game starts this Monday. If you do not acknowledge by Sunday at noon?? you will be replaced and game play will begin Monday as scheduled.
Some spewage to that affect. (But make sure there are players in the wings in case.)
Seconded! Tagging players prior to the game starting SHOULD help curb the influx of no shows we've been seeing lately.
I dont like the idea of the mafia getting the whack because of an AWOL but keeping the numbers odd is more important in my mind. Adding players mid stream could really make for messy dynamics. Not a fan of that idea so guess i say the AWOL is the Lynch for the day and move on. The AWOL could be Mafia.. it's not unheard of.
Nice job on the rule rewrite Mike.
Like the move to 24 hours, and allowing closing on the weekend. Its very easy for ref to say, unless there are objections this round will close on Sunday as long as its done during the week (by Friday). Objections can be PM:d and held in confidence.
Not a rule.. or guess it could be, more procedure... Sometimes it can be weeks between the start of the signups to the start of the game. I'd like to see a role call be done just prior to game start. If i had a dime for every time I've seen " I did not realize the game had started..'
Ex. In the current (just finished game), the next one up to ref would post
Mafia XX will begin Monday 9/1. PLayers are:
List players
Roll call begins now. You have 24/36? hours to acknowledge the game starts this Monday. If you do not acknowledge by Sunday at noon?? you will be replaced and game play will begin Monday as scheduled.
Some spewage to that affect. (But make sure there are players in the wings in case.)
Seconded! Tagging players prior to the game starting SHOULD help curb the influx of no shows we've been seeing lately.
Er. I did that very thing at the end of the Mafia 71 thread. Didn't help Mafia 72.
Seconded! Tagging players prior to the game starting SHOULD help curb the influx of no shows we've been seeing lately.
Er. I did that very thing at the end of the Mafia 71 thread. Didn't help Mafia 72.
did you wait until every player posted to start the game as Fawn was suggesting? Cuz that's what I meant. When I ref, I tag every player at the start aswell. But to do this before the game starts to ensure everyone is ready and engaged, would at least help get rid of the opening round missed votes.
Er. I did that very thing at the end of the Mafia 71 thread. Didn't help Mafia 72.
did you wait until every player posted to start the game as Fawn was suggesting? Cuz that's what I meant. When I ref, I tag every player at the start aswell. But to do this before the game starts to ensure everyone is ready and engaged, would at least help get rid of the opening round missed votes.
Look back. I tagged, waited for one to confirm then launched the new thread once I got it.
did you wait until every player posted to start the game as Fawn was suggesting? Cuz that's what I meant. When I ref, I tag every player at the start aswell. But to do this before the game starts to ensure everyone is ready and engaged, would at least help get rid of the opening round missed votes.
Look back. I tagged, waited for one to confirm then launched the new thread once I got it.
Nico's last post on the last page of Mafia 71: August 7 Game began August 11
Actually Nico was the first to come back with a 'I'm ready' post; it was nate we were waiting on. He chimed in over the weekend, and the game started on Monday.
Damn, there's a lot of names I don't recognize participating in this discussion. Some of you know, I get the feeling many of you don't, so I'll establish my credentials here... I'm the one who rewrote & cleaned up the original set of rules back when Mafia on Inforoo was still in the single digits. I've got a few things to say.
1. Regarding this: "11) Player roles will not be revealed until the game has concluded." I think some clarification might be necessary. Definitely the Referee can't do this. I have to throw out for some discussion, though, the possibility that at some point or another someone's going to try to cite this when - for example - and Inspector tries to come out. I guess the question is: is it perhaps necessary to state that players can continue to go on accusing the bejesus out of one another?
2. I'm so very, very happy that the Bacon Rule I added remains in effect. cc: bacon
3. THERE NEEDS TO BE A RULE AGAINST DAYS BEGINNING WITH EVEN NUMBERS OF PLAYERS I've said it before, I'd suggested it before, but we never got around to codifying it. I'm absolutely against allowing this to happen. I say this because you're asking for a hung game should you ever get into the final rounds with an even number of players. This discussion is the closest I've seen things get to an anti-gridlock/even-numbered rule, and I hope we all capitalize on this.
4. On the subject of replacing players. Just don't do it, OK? I believe I was the first Referee to try it here, and I would not recommend it. In the opening round of a game, one of my players had a death in the family. Totally reasonable justification to let them out of the game, right? So, I recruited another player to fill in for the bereaved and gave them their same role... and my players freaked the fuck out about it. Comments/concerns such as: Did I switch player's roles? How can they trust me on that? Is it fair to everyone else to substitute mid-game? But they don't play the same way!
I wound up cancelling that game and doing a total restart. This was necessary, if memory serves correctly, because someone was so upset about the move that they opted out of my reboot in protest. So, yeah... I'll advise against that too.
5. Can y'all get back in the habit of naming rules inspired by players after the players who inspired them? It's like shenanigans immortality, that.
4. On the subject of replacing players. Just don't do it, OK? I believe I was the first Referee to try it here, and I would not recommend it. In the opening round of a game, one of my players had a death in the family. Totally reasonable justification to let them out of the game, right? So, I recruited another player to fill in for the bereaved and gave them their same role... and my players freaked the fuck out about it. Comments/concerns such as: Did I switch player's roles? How can they trust me on that? Is it fair to everyone else to substitute mid-game? But they don't play the same way!
I wound up cancelling that game and doing a total restart. This was necessary, if memory serves correctly, because someone was so upset about the move that they opted out of my reboot in protest. So, yeah... I'll advise against that too.
I learned from watching you KDogg! Had a like situation and cancelled straight up as replacing was going to cause hell-fire.
Damn, there's a lot of names I don't recognize participating in this discussion. Some of you know, I get the feeling many of you don't, so I'll establish my credentials here... I'm the one who rewrote & cleaned up the original set of rules back when Mafia on Inforoo was still in the single digits. I've got a few things to say.
1. Regarding this: "11) Player roles will not be revealed until the game has concluded." I think some clarification might be necessary. Definitely the Referee can't do this. I have to throw out for some discussion, though, the possibility that at some point or another someone's going to try to cite this when - for example - and Inspector tries to come out. I guess the question is: is it perhaps necessary to state that players can continue to go on accusing the bejesus out of one another?
2. I'm so very, very happy that the Bacon Rule I added remains in effect. cc: bacon
3. THERE NEEDS TO BE A RULE AGAINST DAYS BEGINNING WITH EVEN NUMBERS OF PLAYERS I've said it before, I'd suggested it before, but we never got around to codifying it. I'm absolutely against allowing this to happen. I say this because you're asking for a hung game should you ever get into the final rounds with an even number of players. This discussion is the closest I've seen things get to an anti-gridlock/even-numbered rule, and I hope we all capitalize on this.
4. On the subject of replacing players. Just don't do it, OK? I believe I was the first Referee to try it here, and I would not recommend it. In the opening round of a game, one of my players had a death in the family. Totally reasonable justification to let them out of the game, right? So, I recruited another player to fill in for the bereaved and gave them their same role... and my players freaked the fuck out about it. Comments/concerns such as: Did I switch player's roles? How can they trust me on that? Is it fair to everyone else to substitute mid-game? But they don't play the same way!
I wound up cancelling that game and doing a total restart. This was necessary, if memory serves correctly, because someone was so upset about the move that they opted out of my reboot in protest. So, yeah... I'll advise against that too.
5. Can y'all get back in the habit of naming rules inspired by players after the players who inspired them? It's like shenanigans immortality, that.
1) agree 2) before my time 3) how would this happen without someone missing the vote? I suppose it could happen that mafia misses a whack. The auto lynch we have been discussing would address a player missing a vote. Since the only other scenario I can see where this would happen would be a missed whack, it seems fitting that another round of voting without a follow up whack would correct the numbers. Would the Inspector get another guess in this case? 4) agree 5) ok
3. THERE NEEDS TO BE A RULE AGAINST DAYS BEGINNING WITH EVEN NUMBERS OF PLAYERS I've said it before, I'd suggested it before, but we never got around to codifying it. I'm absolutely against allowing this to happen. I say this because you're asking for a hung game should you ever get into the final rounds with an even number of players. This discussion is the closest I've seen things get to an anti-gridlock/even-numbered rule, and I hope we all capitalize on this.
3) how would this happen without someone missing the vote? I suppose it could happen that mafia misses a whack. The auto lynch we have been discussing would address a player missing a vote. Since the only other scenario I can see where this would happen would be a missed whack, it seems fitting that another round of voting without a follow up whack would correct the numbers. Would the Inspector get another guess in this case?
No, this is in reference to missed votes. This is a pet peeve of mine. Has been since the need for punishing AWOL vote-slackers first arose. I'm talking about the Auto-Lynch here. I like that "throw the bum out" approach best out of however many imperfect solutions available.
Mafia missing a whack seems preposterously unlikely to me. I find it hard to believe that a Referee couldn't get an answer out at least one out of three of them within the time allowed. Even if you did institute a rule for that unlikely no-show Mafia whack... the implementation of that rule basically tells the Townspeople "just look who didn't sign in; there's your Mafia." It's a gimme. In fact, the Bek rule came about because she dropped posthumous hints to that same effect. She was dead & told a live player to consider login times. This isn't much different.
Not to mention, the Non-Voter Auto-Lynch (yes, I'm naming it) maintains more of a fog of war when you've got a round involving the entire group of players as opposed to a specific subset of players with Night duties. I feel that the Referee should avoid undermining that fog of war when at all possible, for the sake of the game.
I'm not saying it's completely fair. I'm saying it's the least unfair.
Slightly off topic however I SOOOOOOOOOOO hope you play this game Kdogg!! The newer players 'ain't seen nothing yet B-b-baby, you just ain't seen n-n-nothing yet, Here's something that you are never gonna forget'.'
Slightly off topic however I SOOOOOOOOOOO hope you play this game Kdogg!! The newer players 'ain't seen nothing yet B-b-baby, you just ain't seen n-n-nothing yet, Here's something that you are never gonna forget'.'
Have gone back through Mike's good work a page back, reviewed comments, feedback, current rules etc and propose the following based on discussion to date. Of course on the controversial points of Null voting and missing two votes, I've written it the way i think it should be.
I think i hit the key topics of late. Please review verbiage changes not related to the null vote/missed votes. i'll remove or modify verbiage added for clarity if its not quite on the mark or too wordy, too much, etc.
There has been a good amount of discussion for and against null votes and how to handle the missed votes. Rather than continue to debate, please indicate if you agree or disagree on each of the two major changes proposed below. If the majority agree, the rules change. If the majority disagree, we will take up the discussion again. The caveat is I will not make the changes without the elders weighing in - Mike D and kdogg at the minimum.
Rules
1) The Referee randomly chooses from the 11 players three Mafiosi and one Inspector. The remaining 7 players are Townspeople. Each player is informed of their role via PM, and are not allowed to share that information with one another except in the official Mafia game thread. The Mafia are informed of one another's identity, and they are allowed to converse among themselves privately. To put it plainly: a) If you are not a member of the mafia, do not discuss the mafia game outside the mafia thread with any other player, or with any non-player who might discuss the game with a player. b) If you are a member of the mafia, you may discuss the game freely among your fellow mafia only. Do not discuss the game outside of this thread with any non-player or player that is not mafia.
2) The Inspector is informed of his/her part, and also of the identity of one randomly chosen Mafia player. The inspector may at any time reveal their identity to the players within the thread (see game play warnings above).
3) Voting will begin when the Referee creates the new Mafia thread and has tagged each of the players in that game to notify the players the game has begun. Voting will be open for 36 hours each round, or until everyone has cast their vote - whichever comes first.
a) The Referee will post a planned vote closing date/time/time zone for each round. Additional time may be given by the Referee to allow for continued discussion. Players have the right to request the Referee to consider an extension in the thread or via PM. Voting will not follow the 36-hour rule on the weekends. The Referee will only close voting on a Saturday or Sunday if all players have cast their vote and the Referee has posted his/her intention to close the round on the weekend prior to the weekend. The weekend is defined as Friday 5 pm CST though Monday 7 am CST. The Referee will not close a round prior to the planned end date/time unless all of the voting players that are not in danger of being lynched (no votes cast against them) lock their votes.
b) Voting is cast by players stating their Inforoo name followed by the Inforoo name of the player they are voting for: ex> Player1 >> Player2.
c) Players may Not change their Inforoo name after the Referee has created the new Mafia thread announcing the players until the game has completed when the Referee posts the winning team and the players roles.
d) A player may choose to vote 'null' as a temporary vote place-holder by stating this vote in the same manner as a traditional vote. If the player does not replace the Null vote by the close of the round, this will count as a missed vote for the player.
e) If votes are tied when the round closes, an additional 36 hour round will start. This is referred to as a Run-Off in the game. Votes for players in the runoff are carried over, other votes are reset. Once the runoff has begun, players that voted for the players in the runoff may change their votes IE once the runoff is established, players are not locked to their initial vote.
f) If a player has not voted before voting closes, their vote will not be counted. A missed vote entering a run-off will be treated the same as a missed vote to end the round. When a player misses a vote, the Referee will specifically post within the Mafia thread stating "Player X has missed 1 vote.
g) A single day in game play can include several vote closings. A missed vote in any rounds of a day count as a missed vote. If a player misses two votes, not two days, they are out of the game regardless of how good the reason. A second missed vote will result in Player X's 'auto-lynch'". When the Referee declares a player as having missed two votes that player will be declared the day kill. Voting will cease, the two-vote miss player is dead, and the Night round will begin. The removed player will also be suspended from participating in the following game.
4) Each day a vote is held for the player to be eliminated. For online play, deliberation and voting is combined; thus, you can vote and explain yourself in the same post. Every player is free to change their vote at any point up until the Referee declares that voting is closed. The Referee will then post the final tally, announce which player is eliminated and how they died.
5) During the Night, the Mafia decide on the player they want to eliminate (assassinate), and inform the Referee via PM. Once the Referee receives this info, it is posted here in the thread, the player is eliminated, and the following Day begins.
6) Likewise during the night the Inspector will PM the Referee and guess one player's Mafia status. The Referee will respond with a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
7) The Referee shall neither answer an Inspector's inquiry nor execute a Mafia's chosen victim until after having received both the Inspector's inquiry and the Mafia's chosen victim. If the Inspector is the victim, the Inspector is not owed an answer from the Referee. The Referee shall only accept victim names from living Mafia players.
8) Nights will last 18 hours. Nights do not follow the weekend rule and will end once the 18 hours are completed unless extended by the referee. a) If the Inspector has not made a guess within 18 hours during a Night round, the Inspector will forfeit that guess. b) If the Mafia have not reported a whack victim within 18 hours during a Night round, the Mafia will forfeit that whack and the Townspeople will receive another round of voting during that Night round to offset the missed whack.
9) Play continues until all the Mafia have been killed (Townspeople win), or the Mafia out number the Townspeople (Mafia win).
10) The Like Rule: Players may not "Like" another players post either alive or dead.
11) Player roles will not be revealed by the Referee until the game has concluded.
12) AKA The Bek Rule: Players who have been eliminated are still welcome to post in this thread, but they may not say anything leading to any knowledge, suspicions or opinions you might have. In the event a dead player posts in the Mafia thread and the Referee decides the post is relevant to the potential outcome of the game, the Referee will notify the player privately of the rule violation and a one game suspension. Upon the completion of the game, the Referee will post the decision within the thread.
13) AKA The kdogg Rule: There will be no sharing of role PMs inside the thread or outside for the purpose of disclosing your role to another player. This also goes for password sharing. Common sense should be used, no discussion of your roles, except between Mafia, outside the thread - EVER.
14) AKA The Bacon Rule: The bigger the whiner, the smaller the wiener.
It is up to the referee of an active game to state and enforce the rules as the game starts. Changes may be made to start the game, but will not change once the game has started. All violations of game rules will be addressed by the referee. If there is a dispute in a game in progress, the referee may discuss it with non-players to resolve any issues or rule violations. In addition, the referee is responsible for maintaining an updated tally that includes the following: a) A list of players currently with a vote on them, including the number of votes b) A list of the current votes for that round c) A list of players yet to vote d) Estimated time until the round will close e) Any additional notes on the game
In addition to game rules, all players are expected to follow the guidelines and policies of the forum. Forum violations will initially be handled by the referee and penalties will be given on a case by case basis.
If the Mafia have technically won the game before the day ends, does the last (inconsequential) round of voting continue, or should the ref step in and call the game? For example, if A, B, and C, are Mafia, and D, E, F, and G are not, and players F and G are in a runoff, the game is essentially over because one townie will get voted off and one will be whacked.
If the Mafia have technically won the game before the day ends, does the last (inconsequential) round of voting continue, or should the ref step in and call the game? For example, if A, B, and C, are Mafia, and D, E, F, and G are not, and players F and G are in a runoff, the game is essentially over because one townie will get voted off and one will be whacked.
I think it should continue until the person is voted dead, not necessary to wait for the whack in that case IMO
One consideration: I got screwed one time because I assumed all voting times were Bonnaroo time. That time it was EST. Even though it said EST many, MANY times I missed it. Totally my fault.
However, I kind of like the idea of it being bonnaroo time for all votes. Also, having it always the same. And it not change based on the ref seems like a good idea to me as well, so we always know what to expect.
That does make sense Surf. I was there when the time zone issue happened.
'ing and straying off topic... its details like the reading the time zone and knowing which players are male or female that always befuddle me when folks dont know players genders. silly comments to pass time until tick tock rick rock we agree on changes or they default into rules.
Bueller, anyone.. thoughts on the definition of the weekend ^^^^^ ??
I would much prefer EST to be the standard time - admittedly somewhat selfishly, because it's a pain in the ass to remember to factor in the extra hour when working out the time difference. Plus, odd numbers hurt the ol' noggin, and AEST > EST is a nice round 14/16 hour difference.
When reffing, I've always thought of the weekend being Friday afternoon (~2-3pm?) to Sunday night (~8-9pm?) - but I also think it's good to be a bit flexible, otherwise it makes me not want to play the game as much (I'm not sacrificing my weekend for Mafia). If, say, someone lets us know beforehand that they won't be able to post until Monday afternoon, I think that's reasonable and they should be taken at face value - but I also know how frustrating it is when it's a single person holding up voting, so flexibility within reason. With the time difference, my weekend would run all day Friday, Saturday & the wee hours of Sunday; I know it'd shit me if I got penalised for not checking in on Friday morning, when that's really my Friday night.
I think there are two weeks of the year that should be treated as semi-hiatuses: Bonnaroo week (Tues - Mon), and the week or so from Christmas Eve to New Year's Day. We had some issues with this last year, and with the season coming up, I would like to see something more official in the rules before next game.
Fawn's amended rules look pretty good to me; I'll take a closer look a little later on.
Rule 3) Voting d) I think you should clarify "by close of round" do you mean a null vote is a missed vote only at the end of the round as in the end of the day or the round as in a runoff within a round? g) typo in second sentence - "round" should be singular, not plural
On the null deal, I don't totally get it or agree with it. When players just vote null in a round, it is often just another way of saying "I am not ready to vote yet" so why even do it? The only case I can see it being useful would be in a three way runoff in round two - 9 players voting on 3 players, 3 votes each. Moving from 3 to 2 players I can see the last player not voting only to allow the runoff to progress. That player could just vote for someone with three votes, leaving the two remaining to go ahead and make a move, but we do tend to eliminate one player at a time, allowing the runoff to reset and get the full 36 hours for new discussion.
Sample tally explaining this:
Day Two/Runoff 1
A - 3 - B, D, E B - 3 - C, F, G C - 3 - A, H, I
Just say a player voting for C wants A and B to be in the runoff - Player I. Player I could vote null, A and H reset when the runoff ends, starting runoff 2. Player I could just vote for A or B, but it may rush the round, they don't want to have their vote criticized for standing out or stacking or whatever. That is really the only way I see a "Null" being of any use.
I don't see any other changes off hand that I would make.
'ing and straying off topic... its details like the reading the time zone and knowing which players are male or female that always befuddle me when folks dont 
