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There are plenty of voters in Michigan who care a lot. She’s just clearly making the same calculus that you are that they can just be ignored.
It doesn't seem to me they're ignoring them...more engaging with them but only to a certain extent. She's publicly called for a cease-fire, an end to the suffering in Gaza, and self-determination for Palestine. I'm sure she's at least been partially involved in actual behind-the-scenes work to broker a cease-fire. People from her campaign met with the Uncommitted folks before the Michigan rally. She acknowledged them at another rally (which one, I can't remember, but it was the one after the "I'm speaking" moment, when it was obvious her team reconsidered how she should react to protestors). They held a panel discussion with them at the DNC.
As I said up-thread, I see not letting someone speak at the convention on behalf of Palestine as a pretty avoidable misstep, but none of the above is nothing. But when the goalposts are unequivocal condemnation of Israel and endorsement of/pursuit of an arms embargo, everything else is going to feel like a half-measure.
It’s just all in what you emphasize. For everything she does that looks like an improvement, there’s an “I’m speaking” moment or shutting out Gaza speakers at the DNC. She can’t even do the “half measures” right.
Maybe that ultimately won’t make the difference in the election, but there’s no sense pretending she’s handling this issue particularly well.
Post by abefroman1 on Aug 25, 2024 13:28:48 GMT -5
The fact that her doing half measures incorrectly means more to the election than trump doing every measure incorrectly is insane and I hate this world because of it
With the caveat that I agree fully about Gaza - it is so, so low on the list of issues voters really care about. It’s like the 15th most important issue even for young voters. It *should* be more important, but it just isn’t.
And IMO the people for whom it’s the most important issue and won’t vote for her because of it…would probably find another reason not to vote for her, or if she made a more aggressively pro-Palestine stance it would alienate a greater number of voters who might vote for her. Which sucks! But that’s the world we live in.
There are plenty of voters in Michigan who care a lot. She’s just clearly making the same calculus that you are that they can just be ignored.
You guys know she's doing better in Michigan than PA, AZ, NV, GA, right? ...it's her second best swing state, just barely behind WI. Gaza is just not the issue y'all think it is. (Again: I actually wish it was, but for it to be a real issue would require her to have an opponent who would challenge her on it and instead she has an opponent who would objectively be worse, which affords her the chance to let it slide instead of talking about real change.)
There are plenty of voters in Michigan who care a lot. She’s just clearly making the same calculus that you are that they can just be ignored.
You guys know she's doing better in Michigan than PA, AZ, NV, GA, right? ...it's her second best swing state, just barely behind WI. Gaza is just not the issue y'all think it is. (Again: I actually wish it was, but for it to be a real issue would require her to have an opponent who would challenge her on it and instead she has an opponent who would objectively be worse, which affords her the chance to let it slide instead of talking about real change.)
She’s polling worse in Michigan than Biden or Clinton were. And Az, NV, Ga are all bonus states, Michigan and PA are must wins.
Have you ever been to Michigan? It’s absolutely an issue there. Obviously I don’t know if she’s gonna win or lose that state, but there’s no denying she has not changed the message on this issue in a meaningful way.
This conversation started because you said she’s given undecided Dems a lot of reasons to vote for her. A big bloc of undecided Dems were Gaza undecideds, and she just objectively hasn’t given them much.
Post by SupeЯfuЯЯyanimal on Aug 25, 2024 18:55:49 GMT -5
Just to clarify something the pundits are getting wrong. I’ve seen her getting praise for her words on Gaza. That it’s new and hopeful. If you’ve paid attention to this issue then you’ll know this is 100% not true. Regardless of your opinion on what should be done or the vibes, she’s done zero to indicate any new direction from her administration. In fact, there’s reason to believe the plan is simply to wait out the election and that’s it. Business as usual.
Personally, I gave about a 5% chance of change with her a couple weeks ago. After the DNC, I’d say less than 1%.
Biden was up 8 on Election Day and won by less than 3. Hillary was up by 4 and lost. Hopefully the polls are more accurate this time around but I’d see how people can be looking at these swing state polls and not be really nervous.
This issue isn’t getting the attention is was three months ago, but the status quo could easily change. Bibi could easily turning the bombing up to 11 in October and Gaza is front page news again. She can’t afford to keep pretending this issue doesn’t exist, but that’s exactly the message they sent at the convention.
Post by Delicious Meatball Sub on Aug 25, 2024 19:04:39 GMT -5
And to be clear, I’m in the camp of voting for her because at least her kids aren’t gunning to build Israeli resorts in Gaza after the war, but again, this is just an objective observation that she’s not giving people who are undecided because of this issue much to believe in.
The fact that her doing half measures incorrectly means more to the election than trump doing every measure incorrectly is insane and I hate this world because of it
It’s bigger than her. The leaders of the Democratic Party enabled this. They passed a 20 billion weapons deal with Israel just last week.
There’s nothing at all unfair about it. The party chose this. It’s not insane they might face a little pushback.
They do deserve some pushback. And I think there was a lost opportunity to show some compassion or maybe be a little more forceful in condemnation. No doubt part of the lack of mention in convention speeches is due to the sensitive nature of everything going on in the Middle East. Israel hitting Gaza and now Lebanon. Assassination in Tehran. Tense negotiations. Huthis as well. VP Harris isn’t going to undermine the administration by talking out of turn on any aspect of the situation except for around the edges. All the intense shit is going on behind the scenes in Doha and Cairo. World geopolitics sucks plenty of the time. I’m not going to be super critical because I understand things are tense. Words matter and anything said can affect negotiations. What I did think was cool was having some of the left alternative media provide an outlet to hear some of these positive Palestinian-American voices. I got to hear one of the proposed and rejected speeches which came off pretty harmless and a gentle nudge that we need peace and people continue to need full assistance. It would have been better to hear that from the main stage.
You guys know she's doing better in Michigan than PA, AZ, NV, GA, right? ...it's her second best swing state, just barely behind WI. Gaza is just not the issue y'all think it is. (Again: I actually wish it was, but for it to be a real issue would require her to have an opponent who would challenge her on it and instead she has an opponent who would objectively be worse, which affords her the chance to let it slide instead of talking about real change.)
She’s polling worse in Michigan than Biden or Clinton were. And Az, NV, Ga are all bonus states, Michigan and PA are must wins.
Have you ever been to Michigan? It’s absolutely an issue there. Obviously I don’t know if she’s gonna win or lose that state, but there’s no denying she has not changed the message on this issue in a meaningful way.
This conversation started because you said she’s given undecided Dems a lot of reasons to vote for her. A big bloc of undecided Dems were Gaza undecideds, and she just objectively hasn’t given them much.
Yes I’ve been to Michigan; I’m in fact going there in a few weeks. Agreed fully that MI and PA are crucial. But PA is run by a hugely popular Zionist governor, which flies in the face of the idea that Gaza is an important issue to voters. And she’s polling better in Michigan. So if anything the people who really care about Palestinians are more supportive?
Yes, she’s polling worse in Michigan than Biden/clinton. That’s true for every swing state. It has nothing to do with Gaza.
Again, the point is that she doesn’t really have to change the messaging because Trump is obviously a worse option if you care about Palestinians either way. You’re not voting for him if you care, and if you care and abstain you’re helping him. Once more: Michigan is nearly her best swing state. Gaza simply doesn’t matter to voters - at least in terms of how they’ll vote - as much as many of us (myself included!) wish it did.
She’s polling worse in Michigan than Biden or Clinton were. And Az, NV, Ga are all bonus states, Michigan and PA are must wins.
Have you ever been to Michigan? It’s absolutely an issue there. Obviously I don’t know if she’s gonna win or lose that state, but there’s no denying she has not changed the message on this issue in a meaningful way.
This conversation started because you said she’s given undecided Dems a lot of reasons to vote for her. A big bloc of undecided Dems were Gaza undecideds, and she just objectively hasn’t given them much.
Yes I’ve been to Michigan; I’m in fact going there in a few weeks. Agreed fully that MI and PA are crucial. But PA is run by a hugely popular Zionist governor, which flies in the face of the idea that Gaza is an important issue to voters. And she’s polling better in Michigan. So if anything the people who really care about Palestinians are more supportive?
Yes, she’s polling worse in Michigan than Biden/clinton. That’s true for every swing state. It has nothing to do with Gaza.
Again, the point is that she doesn’t really have to change the messaging because Trump is obviously a worse option if you care about Palestinians either way. You’re not voting for him if you care, and if you care and abstain you’re helping him. Once more: Michigan is nearly her best swing state. Gaza simply doesn’t matter to voters - at least in terms of how they’ll vote - as much as many of us (myself included!) wish it did.
You started this by saying Harris is giving undecided voters a lot of reasons to vote for her. What exactly is she giving Gaza undecideds?
Michigan has a way larger per capita Arab American population than Pennsylvania so the comparison to that state or really any other one is kinda meaningless. 100,000 people in Michigan voted uncommitted in the primary, Biden only won the state in 2020 by 150,000. It’s not hard to look at the polling and worry they might not be accurately sampling voters in Dearborn, especially when trying to determine if they’re likely to actually vote or not.
She needs to do a better job addressing this issue. The election is too close to ignore it. I don’t see why this is a controversial take.
Yes I’ve been to Michigan; I’m in fact going there in a few weeks. Agreed fully that MI and PA are crucial. But PA is run by a hugely popular Zionist governor, which flies in the face of the idea that Gaza is an important issue to voters. And she’s polling better in Michigan. So if anything the people who really care about Palestinians are more supportive?
Yes, she’s polling worse in Michigan than Biden/clinton. That’s true for every swing state. It has nothing to do with Gaza.
Again, the point is that she doesn’t really have to change the messaging because Trump is obviously a worse option if you care about Palestinians either way. You’re not voting for him if you care, and if you care and abstain you’re helping him. Once more: Michigan is nearly her best swing state. Gaza simply doesn’t matter to voters - at least in terms of how they’ll vote - as much as many of us (myself included!) wish it did.
You started this by saying Harris is giving undecided voters a lot of reasons to vote for her. What exactly is she giving Gaza undecideds?
Michigan has a way larger per capita Arab American population than Pennsylvania so the comparison to that state or really any other one is kinda meaningless. 100,000 people in Michigan voted uncommitted in the primary, Biden only won the state in 2020 by 150,000. It’s not hard to look at the polling and worry they might not be accurately sampling voters in Dearborn, especially when trying to determine if they’re likely to actually vote or not.
She needs to do a better job addressing this issue. The election is too close to ignore it. I don’t see why this is a controversial take.
Let’s reframe it a bit: how would you like her to better address it, in a way that’s a net positive? Because in her convention speech she clearly acknowledged the suffering of Palestinians and insisted on their right to dignity, security, freedom, and self-determination, which is as much as any politician in her position has done to my knowledge. And I look at Cory Bush and Jamaal Bowman and do think no matter how much I care about this, there’s a major risk that going further than that would actually be a net negative, as sad as it is. And if you care about Palestinians, again: voting for Trump or not voting is hurting them.
You started this by saying Harris is giving undecided voters a lot of reasons to vote for her. What exactly is she giving Gaza undecideds?
Michigan has a way larger per capita Arab American population than Pennsylvania so the comparison to that state or really any other one is kinda meaningless. 100,000 people in Michigan voted uncommitted in the primary, Biden only won the state in 2020 by 150,000. It’s not hard to look at the polling and worry they might not be accurately sampling voters in Dearborn, especially when trying to determine if they’re likely to actually vote or not.
She needs to do a better job addressing this issue. The election is too close to ignore it. I don’t see why this is a controversial take.
Let’s reframe it a bit: how would you like her to better address it, in a way that’s a net positive?
Let’s reframe it a bit: how would you like her to better address it, in a way that’s a net positive?
uhh maybe not sending bombs to israel??
I mean even take consistent half measures. Invite someone to the DNC to speak on Gaza, then actually let them speak. Invite advocates for Gaza to your rallies, then don’t tell them to shut up. The DNC was their best chance to have a controlled message on the issue and they just ignored it instead.
I never expected her to support an arms embargo, but I really thought she could do better than this.
I mean even take consistent half measures. Invite someone to the DNC to speak on Gaza, then actually let them speak. Invite advocates for Gaza to your rallies, then don’t tell them to shut up. The DNC was their best chance to have a controlled message on the issue and they just ignored it instead.
I never expected her to support an arms embargo, but I really thought she could do better than this.
I agree fully she should have had a Palestinian speak at the convention; I also appreciated that the Israeli hostage family she had was essentially against the war. I don’t ultimately think any of it actually matters electorally though.
Post by braundiggity on Aug 25, 2024 21:22:50 GMT -5
Just to be explicitly clear by the way: I mean no shade toward anyone upset about Israel/Palestine, anyone who cares about it. Whatever you feel, if you’re on the side of civilians and don’t want them slaughtered, I agree. I wish we’d stop supplying bombs to Israel. I think Bibi is genuinely evil.
I also want to win this election because not doing so is worse for all of the things I just mentioned. And I wish we’d had a primary because that is the way this sort of thing can be pushed one direction or another (though again: primaries have not been kind this cycle to politicians who’ve espoused the beliefs I have.)
Post by SupeЯfuЯЯyanimal on Aug 25, 2024 21:52:11 GMT -5
Bowman had some major issues dragging him down. His polling was bad before AIPAC went all in on him IIRC. Cori had issues too but I think the AIPAC money did put the final nail in the coffin for her. AIPAC hurt them but the campaigns against them weren't totally focused on them being anti-Israeli or anything. My understanding is the big hit against Bush was her voting against the infrastructure bill. Plus, she had those campaign spending attacks against her for a good while.... I have no idea if that was all bullshit or not. Just saying, I think it's important not to consider standing up to war criminals as a ticket out of office. Although you will face lobbying money because we live in hellworld.
I’m trying to let people be happy but…. It was pretty bad man.
Not that I think it hurts her chances but I want nothing to do with whatever this party is becoming. It’s fucking awful.
I listened to most of it driving home to Florida and got here in time to watch Adam and Kamala. I thought the stories from the abuse survivors and school shooting families were touching and brought home the idea that Harris as prosecutor and attorney general prosecuted these types of criminals (with the obvious Trump tie-in for sexual abuse). Because our country is so polarized, a presidential candidate has to win at the margins. So I understand and can appreciate the nod to normalcy and even bringing in so-called moderate or democracy loving republicans to speak. We aren’t going as left as most of us want to, but we all know the alternative is absolutely the worst case scenario as of now. I have hope for the future in that younger generations will get increasingly larger shares of the vote as time rolls on. I may be too old to see it but for now there isn’t a choice for me as a Florida voter. It’s Harris or Trump and there’s no way in hell I’d ever vote for him. Here’s to the day when we can actually fight over policy between liberals and radicals. But the crazy shit has to be buried first.
This has little to do with "not going left". At least at this moment where that's just not a feasible ask. I acknowledged she wasn't my ideal when I said I was happy she was taking Joe's place. I wanted her to succeed and do good. But I want to be clear about something. Opposing a government openly committing genocide isn't radical. That's not even leftwing. Our country is just so cooked that it somehow seems that way. Not wanting the party to move right on immigration or do away with any idea of police reform isn't radical either. These are things that shifted right from when Biden was running. It's the old Third Way Democrat bullshit of cowering down to rightwing propaganda. Not a good sign for the future.
But, for me, the vibes were all sorts of fucked. Chanting U-S-A. People rocking out to Born in the USA like they don't understand the lyrics. That's some north Georgia 4th of July shit, people. Come on. The intense amount of spectacle over substance. It was incredible garish. Which made me fucking resent them all so much for what they've done the last 10 months. I fucking resent the fact that I'm suppose to vote for this bullshit and be joyous about it.
Western history tells us liberals always side with capitol over the radicals. One of the reasons revolutions end up "meet the new boss. Same as the old boss". Just an FYI.
I listened to most of it driving home to Florida and got here in time to watch Adam and Kamala. I thought the stories from the abuse survivors and school shooting families were touching and brought home the idea that Harris as prosecutor and attorney general prosecuted these types of criminals (with the obvious Trump tie-in for sexual abuse). Because our country is so polarized, a presidential candidate has to win at the margins. So I understand and can appreciate the nod to normalcy and even bringing in so-called moderate or democracy loving republicans to speak. We aren’t going as left as most of us want to, but we all know the alternative is absolutely the worst case scenario as of now. I have hope for the future in that younger generations will get increasingly larger shares of the vote as time rolls on. I may be too old to see it but for now there isn’t a choice for me as a Florida voter. It’s Harris or Trump and there’s no way in hell I’d ever vote for him. Here’s to the day when we can actually fight over policy between liberals and radicals. But the crazy shit has to be buried first.
This has little to do with "not going left". At least at this moment where that's just not a feasible ask. I acknowledged she wasn't my ideal when I said I was happy she was taking Joe's place. I wanted her to succeed and do good. But I want to be clear about something. Opposing a government openly committing genocide isn't radical. That's not even leftwing. Our country is just so cooked that it somehow seems that way. Not wanting the party to move right on immigration or do away with any idea of police reform isn't radical either. These are things that shifted right from Biden. It's the old Third Way Democrat bullshit of cowering down to rightwing propaganda. Not a good sign for the future.
But, for me, the vibes were all sorts of fucked. Chanting U-S-A. People rocking out to Born in the USA like they don't understand the lyrics. That's some north Georgia 4th of July shit, people. Come on. The intense amount of spectacle over substance. It was incredible garish. Which made me fucking resent them all so much for what they've done the last 10 months. I fucking resent the fact that I'm suppose to vote for this bullshit and be joyous about it.
Western history tells us liberals always side with capitol over the radicals. One of the reasons revolutions end up "meet the new boss. Same as the old boss". Just an FYI.
Of course though what I would add is I found it humorous that they trolled decorative patriotism. I’m sure some people liked the spectacle but I was thinking about that guy on the subway trying to get the USA chant going only for people to look like they’re wondering if that cat was off his medicine. Chanting USA is like early 1980s pro wrestling shit.
This has little to do with "not going left". At least at this moment where that's just not a feasible ask. I acknowledged she wasn't my ideal when I said I was happy she was taking Joe's place. I wanted her to succeed and do good. But I want to be clear about something. Opposing a government openly committing genocide isn't radical. That's not even leftwing. Our country is just so cooked that it somehow seems that way. Not wanting the party to move right on immigration or do away with any idea of police reform isn't radical either. These are things that shifted right from Biden. It's the old Third Way Democrat bullshit of cowering down to rightwing propaganda. Not a good sign for the future.
But, for me, the vibes were all sorts of fucked. Chanting U-S-A. People rocking out to Born in the USA like they don't understand the lyrics. That's some north Georgia 4th of July shit, people. Come on. The intense amount of spectacle over substance. It was incredible garish. Which made me fucking resent them all so much for what they've done the last 10 months. I fucking resent the fact that I'm suppose to vote for this bullshit and be joyous about it.
Western history tells us liberals always side with capitol over the radicals. One of the reasons revolutions end up "meet the new boss. Same as the old boss". Just an FYI.
Of course though what I would add is I found it humorous that they trolled decorative patriotism. I’m sure some people liked the spectacle but I was thinking about that guy on the subway trying to get the USA chant going only for people to look like they’re wondering if that cat was off his medicine. Chanting USA is like early 1980s pro wrestling shit.
Sure, it's suppose to be a celebration. I get it. I just felt very alienated from it. Mostly vibes, but also some key policy stuff. Which is partly just me being a serial depression case. Insuring America has the most lethal military in the world isn't something I want to hear from the left. Especially when we are openly arming war criminals on the verge of starting a regional conflict. As you likely know living in the South, it felt very much like GOP territory at times. But like the subway story, it definitely felt like a split crowd. Not saying everyone there is some sort of automaton.
So even though RFK bear-whale fuckface has endorsed Trump, he's still going to end up on the ballot in a lot of states...Including, key swing states such as: Michigan, Wisconsin, Nevada, and North Carolina. LOL