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I understand the sentiment of those criticizing Warren right now. I get you are pulling for your candidate in the primary, and I also understand that you felt Obama pumped you up and let you down, and you want to avoid that again. I also think sometimes you guys expect too much change too fast and when you see things not going as you hoped you become filled with too much hopelessness which IS counter-productive to the strategy you talk about when it comes to taking on the Republicans. And it is important to keep in mind that that is just as important as getting your candidate to win the primary. I am constantly reading how it’s not important to engage with anyone who voted for Trump in 2016, and the key is to engage new voters. Well a lot of those new voters are not going to vote for the Dem you are hoping for, and the ones that are, won’t want to vote for the winner of the primary if you make them feel like it’s just another establishment pawn. Go for your candidate, but remember that we NEED people to vote Democrat in 2020. That’s much more important than who wins this primary, imo.
Personally, I am becoming more and more convinced that Warren is the right candidate because I just don’t think America is ready for Bernie yet. When he says things like “Billionaires shouldn’t exist, and we’re going to tax the crap out of them.” I don’t think it’s politically a smart move and I think he’s blowing it. It’s not even that I disagree with him, it’s just that can we please focus on getting everyone in this country healthcare first? To me any candidate not pushing medicare for all is not acceptable, but we are having enough trouble getting that done. Clearly America is not ready to go all the way to the left. And if Warren doesn’t deliver on that, I will be seriously pissed, but I will also have to consider the context of what is accomplished in our current political climate.
Just about every single one of Bernie's supposedly too-radical policies is popular with the majority of the electorate, so I'm sorry I sorta don't buy what you're saying in that second paragraph.
I think Democrats need to start shifting as a party to the left and give people what they actually want and in a lot of cases need in order to fulfill the promise of what this country can be with its vast wealth and influence on the world. And until they do, it is their fault that they lose for not doing so, not my fault they lose for saying so.
Just about every single one of Bernie's supposedly too-radical policies is popular with the majority of the electorate, so I'm sorry I sorta don't buy what you're saying in that second paragraph.
I think Democrats need to start shifting as a party to the left and give people what they actually want and in a lot of cases need in order to fulfill the promise of what this country can be with its vast wealth and influence on the world. And until they do, it is their fault that they lose for not doing so, not my fault they lose for saying so.
What polls backup that a majority of Americans don’t want Billionaires to exist?
Again, it’s not that I completely disagree with the platform. I am just trying to find the disconnect. You constantly tell me that a majority of Americans agree with Bernie’s proposals, but he’s consistently behind Warren and Biden in the polls. Why? Is it really all the media’s doing?
Last Edit: Oct 2, 2019 0:31:40 GMT -5 by pmo - Back to Top
Just about every single one of Bernie's supposedly too-radical policies is popular with the majority of the electorate, so I'm sorry I sorta don't buy what you're saying in that second paragraph.
I think Democrats need to start shifting as a party to the left and give people what they actually want and in a lot of cases need in order to fulfill the promise of what this country can be with its vast wealth and influence on the world. And until they do, it is their fault that they lose for not doing so, not my fault they lose for saying so.
What polls backup that a majority of Americans don’t want Billionaires to exist?
I don't know. I don't know that there are such polls. Do you have any polls showing that people really like that other people have an obscene amount more money than they do?
I'm referring to things like M4A, free college, eliminating college and medical debt, legalizing marijuana and reforming the prison system, etc. Policies. And you don't get there without taxing billionaires. Warren has a wealth tax that she has proposed. She may use softer language, but the fact that she does and that she is apparently comfortable with the amount of wealth that is concentrated so that three men control more wealth than half the country is actually a strike against her for me.
I appreciate that you think Warren is a less radical candidate and that makes her more tenable in the current paradigm of American politics, and I agree with you on the first part, but I disagree on the second. She is less tenable because she is not radical enough, and you can see in the polling that Bernie performs better against Trump head-to-head than any of the other Democratic contenders, and that's been polled many times and is fairly consistent.
If it were a question of electability and not policy and Bernie was actually less electable, you would have a better point. I'm not sure I would vote for someone based on electability rather than policy in a primary, and I think that being able to run a successful primary campaign is as much proof of electability as anything else, but it would at least be a debate.
But Bernie has both. He's both the best candidate to beat Trump and the best candidate on policy, which is why it's so revealing and troubling that the Democratic establishment will fight dirty to make sure he doesn't get the nomination.
What polls backup that a majority of Americans don’t want Billionaires to exist?
I don't know. I don't know that there are such polls. Do you have any polls showing that people really like that other people have an obscene amount more money than they do?
I'm referring to things like M4A, free college, eliminating college and medical debt, legalizing marijuana and reforming the prison system, etc. Policies. And you don't get there without taxing billionaires. Warren has a wealth tax that she has proposed. She may use softer language, but the fact that she does and that she is apparently comfortable with the amount of wealth that is concentrated so that three men control more wealth than half the country is actually a strike against her for me.
I appreciate that you think Warren is a less radical candidate and that makes her more tenable in the current paradigm of American politics, and I agree with you on the first part, but I disagree on the second. She is less tenable because she is not radical enough, and you can see in the polling that Bernie performs better against Trump head-to-head than any of the other Democratic contenders, and that's been polled many times and is fairly consistent.
If it were a question of electability and not policy and Bernie was actually less electable, you would have a better point. I'm not sure I would vote for someone based on electability rather than policy in a primary, and I think that being able to run a successful primary campaign is as much proof of electability as anything else, but it would at least be a debate.
But Bernie has both. He's both the best candidate to beat Trump and the best candidate on policy, which is why it's so revealing and troubling that the Democratic establishment will fight dirty to make sure he doesn't get the nomination.
I don’t think those polls exist either. I am also just kind of assuming that most Americans aren’t attracted to that kind of rhetoric, basically using the Democratic primary polls to guide my thinking on that. I am aware that Bernie consistently polls better head to head vs Trump than Warren which is odd given that Warren polls better when just comparing the democratic nominees. Am I crazy to think sexism plays a roll in that? Not implying that Sanders supporters are sexist, but that the general public would rather see a male President rather than a female President, even if he is a little more “radical”.
It may be a factor. I don't really know. If so, it is unfortunate that that would be the case.
I would offer an alternative explanation that Bernie has a much stronger record advocating for the policies he does. He has done so more convincingly and for far longer. I think that he appeals to the working class that Trump might appeal to moreso than Warren does. Maybe that's sexism, maybe it's his rhetorical strategy and message discipline, maybe it's something else. But, I also think that while Trump is bullshitting about caring about those people, Bernie isn't, and many of those people are actually smart enough to understand that, as much as those who hate Trump like us may doubt it.
I also think that chalking all of that up to sexism would be dishonest given the composition of Bernie's coalition. He leads the primary among young Black women, for example. So, while you see the Bernie Bro narrative perpetuated, not as much here as elsewhere, it's basic nonsense that all of his supporters are white men. If you look at the breakdown of who supports him, it is the most diverse. He appeals to people of all races, and does so better than basically anyone else, despite being "an old white guy", as so many like to portray him.
In your initial post, you mentioned that not every person we register would want to vote for my favored candidate, and that's partly true. But, the Bernie campaign is predicated on the idea that by motivating those who otherwise might not vote, we are adding more to the ranks of those who would vote for Bernie or a candidate like Bernie than those who wouldn't. To borrow from Ryan Grim's book title, and from whomever he may be quoting saying it: "We've Got People".
We've got people, and they've got money. People are greater than money. People give power to money, and people allow the powerful to control money. For now. But the majority of people hold the power, because we are meant to be a democracy, and if people understood the power they wielded they would be able to wield it. That is the mindset behind the Bernie campaign, and that is what I believe, and that is why I can't support anyone else in this primary.
Post by SupeЯfuЯЯyanimal on Oct 2, 2019 7:08:37 GMT -5
Let's talk about billionaires for a sec. Because the tone policing and fretting with liberals is a real problem. Although you can sniff out a lot of suburban class interests in these tone arguments.
Let me put something in very stark terms. We either start taking to the streets and beating these people at the ballet box with a diverse, working class coalition removed from moneyed interest or the world as we know it will literally cease to exist in around 100 years. In all likelihood, we are going to see millions of people fucking starve to death in our lifetimes; or drown; or die in a border war. We're going to see mass extinction of wildlife. This is shit that's just going to happen or is already happening(check out the death tolls from heatwaves around the world). We've already got a bleak future. Imagine what your kids will see if we don't start reversing emissions. Imagine the authoritarian hellhole this country will turn into after the coming structural fractures and fears of societal collapse. It will be worse in other places but let's stick with the system we've got to fix.
Beating them through the ballet box is better than these fucking people deserve, to be quite honest. Worldwide, 100 companies produce 71% of emissions. Not only that. The major companies FUCKING KNEW the dangers starting in the late 70s. By the late 80s they had PR and lobbying groups set up to misinform the public and fight environmental legislation. Check out this list of companies.
That's some great examples of the billionaires that shouldn't exist.Just not in quite the class war sense Bernie was referring to. He was talking more about parasitic insurance executives, etc. These are the elites that we can't be too blunt talking about. Like I get the sentiment. You catch more flies with honey and all that. There's a lot of truth to it but that time is quickly coming to an end. Liberals need to wake the fuck up. We are in a class war. It's been waged against us for centuries. Why would we not load these people on a tumbrel and led them to madame guillotine use the language of class war to describe it? That doesn't mean we can't strive to be kind to one another but at the very least come to terms with the moment we live in and the myriad of ways people are getting crushed by it.
This isn't even about Bernie over Warren or vice-versa. This is a rant about how we need to start viewing our future and the structural changes we need to start making to ensure there is one. Also, just my general irritation at being endlessly told to be patient when there's no fucking time for it.
Let's talk about billionaires for a sec. Because the tone policing and fretting with liberals is a real problem. Although you can sniff out a lot of suburban class interests in these tone arguments.
Let me put something in very stark terms. We either start taking to the streets and beating these people at the ballet box with a diverse, working class coalition removed from moneyed interest or the world as we know it will literally cease to exist in around 100 years. In all likelihood, we are going to see millions of people fucking starve to death in our lifetimes; or drown; or die in a border war. We're going to see mass extinction of wildlife. This is shit that's just going to happen or is already happening(check out the death tolls from heatwaves around the world). We've already got a bleak future. Imagine what your kids will see if we don't start reversing emissions. Imagine the authoritarian hellhole this country will turn into after the coming structural fractures and fears of societal collapse. It will be worse in other places but let's stick with the system we've got to fix.
Beating them through the ballet box is better than these fucking people deserve, to be quite honest. Worldwide, 100 companies produce 71% of emissions. Not only that. The major companies FUCKING KNEW the dangers starting in the late 70s. By the late 80s that had PR and lobbying groups set up to misinform the public and fight environmental legislation. Check out this list of companies.
That's some great examples of the billionaires that shouldn't exist.Just not in quite the class war sense Bernie was referring to. He was talking more about parasitic insurance executives, etc. These are the elites that we can't be too blunt talking about. Like I get the sentiment. You catch more flies with honey and all that. There's a lot of truth to it but that time is quickly coming to an end. Liberals need to wake the fuck up. We are in a class war. It's been waged against us for centuries. Why would we not load these people on a tumbrel and led them to madame guillotine use the language of class war to describe it? That doesn't mean we can't strive to be kind to one another but at the very least come to terms with the moment we live in and the myriad of ways being are getting crushed by it.
This isn't even about Bernie over Warren or vice-versa. This is a rant about how we need to start viewing our future and the structural changes we need to start making to ensure there is one. Also, just my general irritation at being endlessly told to be patient when there's no fucking time for it.
Anyway. Good morning, and eat the rich.
Understood. I just wonder what the best strategy is to get people behind that line of thinking. Because I think a lot of working class people hear that very bleak future you laid out, and don’t buy it right now. That disinformation campaign is powerful as fuck. And maybe the best way is to stay on message until something drastic happens and they are force to question what they believe.
Unlike you, I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I am trying to gain more insight through discussion. My point was I wish Bernie would keep the focus on popular proposals before saying things that I don’t THINK are very popular like he wants to eliminate billionaires. Obviously not that Bernie doesn’t focus on healthcare enough. If you have some honest discussion that you’d like to have with me, and show me why this thought process is inaccurate, awesome. If not, maybe you should focus on the whole “pledging not to be as big of an ass” thing you talked about earlier.
Last Edit: Oct 2, 2019 7:57:58 GMT -5 by pmo - Back to Top
Unlike you, I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I am trying to gain more insight through discussion. My point was I wish Bernie would keep the focus on popular proposals before saying things that I don’t THINK are very popular like he wants to eliminate billionaires. Obviously not that Bernie doesn’t focus on healthcare enough. If you have some honest discussion that you’d like to have with me, and show me why this thought process is inaccurate, awesome. If not, maybe you should focus on the whole “pledging not to be as big of an ass” thing you talked about earlier.
Count up all the times Bernie has said "Eliminate billionaires" and all the times Bernie has said "Medicare for all" and let me know what you come up with. Then tell me what he's keeping the focus on.
"Why mention it at all, ever?", you may ask.
Expecting Bernie to not advocate for the things he believes because they might be politically unpopular is essentially expecting Bernie not to be Bernie. He's done this his entire career. Allowing felons to vote isn't popular, but he stands by it because it's the right thing to do, no matter how many "Hurr Boston Bomber can vote?" smears get flung
Not compromising on his beliefs is how he differentiates himself from every other candidate, and is incredibly important to his campaign. Nobody is going to ask "Can I trust Bernie to actually fight for M4A?"
Unlike you, I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I am trying to gain more insight through discussion. My point was I wish Bernie would keep the focus on popular proposals before saying things that I don’t THINK are very popular like he wants to eliminate billionaires. Obviously not that Bernie doesn’t focus on healthcare enough. If you have some honest discussion that you’d like to have with me, and show me why this thought process is inaccurate, awesome. If not, maybe you should focus on the whole “pledging not to be as big of an ass” thing you talked about earlier.
Count up all the times Bernie has said "Eliminate billionaires" and all the times Bernie has said "Medicare for all" and let me know what you come up with. Then tell me what he's keeping the focus on.
"Why mention it at all, ever?", you may ask.
Expecting Bernie to not advocate for the things he believes because they might be politically unpopular is essentially expecting Bernie not to be Bernie. He's done this his entire career. Allowing felons to vote isn't popular, but he stands by it because it's the right thing to do, no matter how many "Hurr Boston Bomber can vote?" smears get flung
Not compromising on his beliefs is how he differentiates himself from every other candidate, and is incredibly important to his campaign. Nobody is going to ask "Can I trust Bernie to actually fight for M4A?"
Thanks. I agree with that. That is what is refreshing about Bernie when compared to other candidates. Unfortunately I am not sure if it’s the best move for him strategy wise, but at this point it would be foolish to ask Bernie to say something he doesn’t believe.
Speaking of Bernie, glad to hear he's ok. He has cancelled all events until further notice after having heart surgery yesterday to remove blockage in one artery and place two stents. link
Speaking of Bernie, glad to hear he's ok. He has cancelled all events until further notice after having heart surgery yesterday to remove blockage in one artery and place two stents. link
Didn't even know about this. Unfortunately, now the right wing will use this to question Bernie's health just like they tried to make it seem like Hillary was so ill she couldn't possibly run a country.
Speaking of Bernie, glad to hear he's ok. He has cancelled all events until further notice after having heart surgery yesterday to remove blockage in one artery and place two stents. link
Didn't even know about this. Unfortunately, now the right wing will use this to question Bernie's health just like they tried to make it seem like Hillary was so ill she couldn't possibly run a country.
Didn't even know about this. Unfortunately, now the right wing will use this to question Bernie's health just like they tried to make it seem like Hillary was so ill she couldn't possibly run a country.
Glad he's okay, though.
Just the right wing?
Well, no. Obviously everyone is going to hit him but I know it will come hardest from the right wing and some trolls over in Russia. I expect CNN and others to also use this to question his health and make it seem worse than it may be
Speaking of Bernie, glad to hear he's ok. He has cancelled all events until further notice after having heart surgery yesterday to remove blockage in one artery and place two stents. link
Didn't even know about this. Unfortunately, now the right wing will use this to question Bernie's health just like they tried to make it seem like Hillary was so ill she couldn't possibly run a country.