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Christopher Shawn i am enjoying our discussion but i cannot parse what principles you are advocating for.
Im not advocating for anything in this discussion that I too am also enjoying other than there is either free speech, or no free speech at the end of the day.
If your private forum censors anything, then it is not participating in free speech, and that is their right to dictate that within their garden so to speak.
i guess it's not that cut and dry to me. i think we can still call a society one that advocates for free speech even if there are some limitations on said speech. i'll concede that definitionally that does mean it's not truly, absolutely, 100% limitless speech, just like chips and salsa at a mexican restaurant aren't really "free", they are built into the cost of the meal you are going to eat, you can't just go in and get free chips and salsa and leave. i mean i guess you could but thats a dick move and they probably wouldn't let you do it again. but i don't think the definition of "free speech" is "100% limitless speech".
every liberal society puts some limits on speech, i.e. the aforementioned yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire. limits are necessary to keep people safe. the question isn't SHOULD we limit free speech, it's how much should we limit free speech. and this is where things get hairy, because people have wildly different definitions are to what types of speech are harmful or cause suffering.
i tend to be strongly in favor of having as few limitations on speech as possible. i think it's good for people to have their beliefs challenged, even if that means upsetting them or having their feelings hurt. but beyond that i'm glad i'm not a standard setter at one of these major social media companies because i have no idea how the hell i'd approach creating bright line rules based on those principles.
Exhausting. Then what was the point of any of this? You dropped the Chomsky quote into the middle of a conversation about Kanye West being deplatformed by Twitter and Instagram. You've written at further length about free speech - again, against which *literally no one in this thread* is arguing. What, exactly, are you trying to say? That freedom of speech means tolerating speech we don't like? OK! Grand! We're all in agreement! Peace in our time!
There’s like 5 examples of him not understanding the broader context of the quote. Which makes this all very funny.
There's a difference between not understanding something, and utilizing a tool in a different manner than it may have originally been intended.
Im not advocating for anything in this discussion that I too am also enjoying other than there is either free speech, or no free speech at the end of the day.
If your private forum censors anything, then it is not participating in free speech, and that is their right to dictate that within their garden so to speak.
i think it's good for people to have their beliefs challenged, even if that means upsetting them or having their feelings hurt. but beyond that i'm glad i'm not a standard setter at one of these major social media companies because i have no idea how the hell i'd approach creating bright line rules based on those principles.
Yeah, it seems like a terrible, winless business to be in.
It's like...if I were walking through Times Square and heard a guy ranting at the top of his lungs about how the Jews are secret lizard people and should be exterminated on sight, am I going to call the police on him? No, because I believe in free speech. But I'm also not going to build him a stage, set up a PA, check his sound levels, crank that shit to 11, and wrangle hundreds of people to be his audience, either.
Also free speech question. As a black person should I be able to use n-word on this site without recourse? Zero context, even though I've gone south and heard white people use n-word thinking it's funny? Just testing your set of reality vs your veneration of free speech as the goal of a free society?
Last Edit: Oct 11, 2022 11:16:13 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Also free speech question. As a black person should I be able to use n-word on this site without recourse?
Yes. Not a mod but it seems like this would be an easy thing to do because we all know you.
Having said that not everyone knows you, imagine some new user shows up and sees you using that word and doesn't know you and is like what the fuck?
Or if some new user egghead avatar showed up and started throwing the word around but then claimed it's OK because they are black. Then the moderators are in the position of doing race verification. And that is so icky I don't even like typing the words "race verification". So the larger and more anonymous an online community gets the the more wisdom I can see in just saying nobody can say that word.
a remarkable amount of internet bullshit could be fixed if we banned anonymity.
Also free speech question. As a black person should I be able to use n-word on this site without recourse?
Yes. Not a mod but it seems like this would be an easy thing to do because we all know you.
Having said that not everyone knows you, imagine some new user shows up and sees you using that word and doesn't know you and is like what the fuck?
Or if some new user egghead avatar showed up and started throwing the word around but then claimed it's OK because they are black. Then the moderators are in the position of doing race verification. And that is so icky I don't even like typing the words "race verification". So the larger and more anonymous an online community gets the the more wisdom I can see in just saying nobody can say that word.
a remarkable amount of internet bullshit could be fixed if we banned anonymity.
You know that I could have made a totally different argument, but this was the fastest way to illuminate the problem with absolute free speech. Because let's be honest, now, is it dangerous speech? Me saying it means something different - i.e. "lol race verification" (we could talk about what race means for hours) --- but it means something different than a white counterpart who is being either antagonistic or thinks is funny says it. I've bit my lip at least 3 times not fighting someone over their use of the n-word. But was that "dangerous speech" where I'm entitled to defend myself or does it only allow them a free pass, because it's legally assault?
These are also the types of discussions I want to have but am having a hard time speaking to people about... hilariously I think esteban should give me a call. I feel like he has some wisdom on this from time
Kind of a case in point where the nuance of censorship, or the lack there of may cause more problems than it is trying to correct.
Explain. What is the nuance of me being in a situation face to face and having to shut my cotton-picking mouth?
edit: Important to note I do not see ANY difference in face-to-face vs online posting, and people don't agree with me here on that all the time, but it's relevant to the argument.
Last Edit: Oct 11, 2022 11:55:46 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Kind of a case in point where the nuance of censorship, or the lack there of may cause more problems than it is trying to correct.
Explain. What is the nuance of me being in a situation face to face and having to shut my cotton-picking mouth?
edit: Important to note I do not see ANY difference in face-to-face vs online posting, and people don't agree with me here on that all the time, but it's relevant to the argument.
Im confused by the question. I don't think you should ever shut your mouth. And I dont think anyone should ever censor you or anyone in real life or on a forum of any kind.
And the cotton picking thing...I never ever even came close to implying anything like that.
Explain. What is the nuance of me being in a situation face to face and having to shut my cotton-picking mouth?
edit: Important to note I do not see ANY difference in face-to-face vs online posting, and people don't agree with me here on that all the time, but it's relevant to the argument.
Im confused by the question. I don't think you should ever shut your mouth. And I dont think anyone should ever censor you or anyone in real life or on a forum of any kind.
And the cotton picking thing...I never ever even came close to implying anything like that.
Been called a n-word, a cotton picker because they thought it was funny... jokes about n-words doing this or that. It's supposed to make you think about the words we say. So am I supposed to just take that in and say, sir, you are allowed to your speech.
Post by Christopher Shawn on Oct 11, 2022 12:05:25 GMT -5
No, you are supposed to react however you want to. If that includes fist fighting an ignorant bigot, trying to educate the idiot with words, or walking away from the situation.
Ive never been in that situation, and I never will be. My daughter is half African American, and my ex Wife and I dread the day when we have to explain to her about those inevitable scenarios.
No, you are supposed to react however you want to. If that includes fist fighting an ignorant bigot, trying to educate the idiot with words, or walking away from the situation.
Ive never been in that situation, and I hope to never be. My daughter is half half African American, and my ex Wife and I dread the day when we have to explain to her about those inevitable scenarios.
Yo bro... you don't want to end up locked up in Tennessee over punching down a bigot. That's some crazy shit.
Well --- 2 of those times are in *that state. One of them had to come back a year later and apologize to me (not a n-word joke directed at me, directed at his white cousin). But I've never been in a good place when this shit goes down, and yes it's mostly the South.
Last Edit: Oct 11, 2022 12:12:12 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Post by man1cpixiedreamgirl on Oct 11, 2022 20:20:52 GMT -5
I read about the Geena Davis "Quick Change" story today, too. I'm not surprised by that behavior from back then, but the details about "Being Mortal" is so gross. Not that it was ever ok, but fuck Bill read the room. I wonder if Aziz feels cursed at this point.
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