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well i give him the benfit of the doubt. the guy came prepared to work and got screwed. now if there is a thread to raise money for camp kramer in the same situation next year then i think there would be something to bitch about. sounds like a string of badluck for the guy and not totally just expecting soemthing for nothing
Last Edit: Jun 8, 2006 23:14:41 GMT -5 by Dude - Back to Top
teine, that rocks. Thanks so much. I've been on here the past couple of years and you've always been such a good man...hope I get to meet you, I'll be with the inforoo tenters pretty much.
well i give him the benfit of the doubt. the guy came prepared to work and got screwed. now if there is a thread to raise money for camp kramer in the same situation this year then i think there would be something to bitch about. sounds like a string of badluck for the guy and not totally just expecting soemthing for nothing
see that how I look at it... I'm sure that he wasn't just like "oh, i'll get there and other people will just hand me stuff." he got screwed by some bad luck. I've been there, you've been there, everybody's been there. I just think it's crass to just pass judgment on this guy and call him a bum and assume that the rest of his life he's going to be looking for a handout.
and I've rethought the Jim Tobin thing and you guys are right, the shirts don't need to be worn.. still doesn't make me think that he's not somewhat of an a-hole for refusing Kramer work even after he got his paperwork together.
At rick of quickly losing karma, i agree with Jauggernaut.
Roo is a fun weekend. an escape from reality. it's something you should earn.
reality, for most people, is that you need to work and make money. if you don't, then you must rely on others to get by.
im sorry to all you folks in college, but "free-spirit" is just a hippie word for bum.
if this same guy was just another homeless dude, and had no interest in bonnaroo, you certainly wouldnt be writing about him on the net and, frankly, probably wouldn't even notice him at all.
I'm not gonna smite you brother. I wish you only the best and hope you never need the help of others. If you do find yourself in a bind, just remember not to accept the selflessness of a stranger.
It's been said before, but... They both came to Manchester with the intent to work Bonnaroo to gain access to the festival (not the $250 upfront volunteer thing), and only one of them was hired by the production company. Though Kramer possessed temporary paperwork from the Social Security office, it was not an acceptable substitute to the powers that be. In the time that Kramer has been here, he has been solicited by a few locals for help around the farm or wherever. I'm not sure how busy he's been with that nor is it my business, but I believe he'd prefer to be working.
After speaking at length with Anthony and Kramer, I better understand the lifestyle choice they've made. They enjoy life on the road plain and simple. Once they've seen the states, they plan to see different countries. <sarcasm>Sounds pretty ambitious for a couple of bums. </sarcasm> For them to fulfill their goals there will be much work involved. How they go about it is for them to decide. My choice the last five years has been to sit at a desk under fluorescent lights in a room with no windows. Sounds like a good time huh? While my choice may sound more responsible (and I use that word loosely), who's to say that everyone is obligated to live their life in a similar manner. Truth is each of us will walk different paths in life. Who knows where their's may lead them. In some ways I envy them. So far they've had quite an adventure.
Finally, if you find yourself in a position that you're able to help somone out, you should try it. I do want to caution everyone though, feelings of warmth may extend from the center of your chest flowing quickly through the body and mind.
My choice the last five years has been to sit at a desk under fluorescent lights in a room with no windows. Sounds like a good time huh? While my choice may sound more responsible (and I use that word loosely), who's to say that everyone is obligated to live their life in a similar manner. Truth is each of us will walk different paths in life. Who knows where their's may lead them. In some ways I envy them. So far they've had quite an adventure.
Finally, if you find yourself in a position that you're able to help somone out, you should try it. I do want to caution everyone though, feelings of warmth may extend from the center of your chest flowing quickly through the body and mind.
It's been said before, but... They both came to Manchester with the intent to work Bonnaroo to gain access to the festival (not the $250 upfront volunteer thing), and only one of them was hired by the production company. Though Kramer possessed temporary paperwork from the Social Security office, it was not an acceptable substitute to the powers that be. In the time that Kramer has been here, he has been solicited by a few locals for help around the farm or wherever. I'm not sure how busy he's been with that nor is it my business, but I believe he'd prefer to be working.
After speaking at length with Anthony and Kramer, I better understand the lifestyle choice they've made. They enjoy life on the road plain and simple. Once they've seen the states, they plan to see different countries. <sarcasm>Sounds pretty ambitious for a couple of bums. </sarcasm> For them to fulfill their goals there will be much work involved. How they go about it is for them to decide. My choice the last five years has been to sit at a desk under fluorescent lights in a room with no windows. Sounds like a good time huh? While my choice may sound more responsible (and I use that word loosely), who's to say that everyone is obligated to live their life in a similar manner. Truth is each of us will walk different paths in life. Who knows where their's may lead them. In some ways I envy them. So far they've had quite an adventure.
Finally, if you find yourself in a position that you're able to help somone out, you should try it. I do want to caution everyone though, feelings of warmth may extend from the center of your chest flowing quickly through the body and mind.
Teine, my friend, you are exhualted!! I wish I could put it into words as nice as you have here, but there it is folks.
Agree or disagree with the Kramer situation, Teine has just made it very plain and simply for all to understand. I think he has summed it up well!
I too have talked to the guys at length and I agree, Kramer would rather be working.
You don't WALK 15 miles to the ssn office to get a replacment card if you don't want to work. You don't ask perfect starnagers to mow thier grass of help in the hay fields if you don't want to work!!
that is exactly what has happened, a stroke of bad luck! I too know the feeling of sitting in the floresent (sp) light office for 7 years (ever seen Joe vs. the Volcano? that's how I feel) I envy these guys for what they have been able to do.
They say they want to make a movie about the trip. Will they??? Who knows, but stranger things have happened. You never know who they will tell this story to.
I like the comment above, don't remember who said it, but I agree:
If you ever find yourself in a jam and need someone's assistance, careful not to allow any strangers to come to your aid, others may think you a "bum".
Understand that the Kramer situation is just another day in our lives (as I said, we are the ones who get cussed out for holding up traffic at Wal-Mart while trying to give the "bums" at the corner money or whatnot), that ended up spiraling into this "thing" with a life of it's own. YOU folks are incredible!!!
It amazes me how many people want to buy ME a beer, when all along I have been under the impression that I should buy Y'ALL a beer. I haven't done anything! You guys ponied up when the challenge was laid!!!
I can't wait to meet EVERYONE of you guys, even the dissenters!
Here a Q:
How many of the non-supports of the Kramer issue are Conservative/Rethuglican?
Hey Chris - here is something that would surprise you - I am Republican and I am a supporter. I don't always agree with our government no matter which polictical party is in power. People should help people and politics should not come into play.
Charity begins at home and we should always help other less fortunate then ourselves. Whether that is a bum peddling to get money for smokes or someone like Kramer who is doing his own thing. Our country - the USA - would benefit from alot more people like you that take the time to stop and say "Hey - can I help somehow?" But most of us are too wrapped up in our own busy little worlds to pay attention to the big picture!
I think everyone on this board is awesome (even the nay-sayers) We all have our opinions and ain't it a great world that we can express ourselves freely in!
Last Edit: Jun 9, 2006 9:15:28 GMT -5 by Meg - Back to Top
I've been following this thread for about a week (if I had found out in time, I definitely would've donated). DMBfan, most of my political views tend to be moderately conservative. However, I wholeheartedly agree with how and why you have helped these two guys. I also hold no contempt towards them for being "irresponsible" or "impulsive." Like many others have said, I almost envy the two of them and definitely want to meet them.
My conservative political views are restricted to just that; political views. The way I live my life, so I've been told, is like a liberal. How many hardcore GOPers could stand to be at Bonnaroo?
Not at all sorry to say that I still agree with the if these guys weren't Bonnaroo bound hippies most people on here wouldn't care.
I think this has become more and more obvious with the fact that many people are saying how they envy them and respect their lifestyle. Call me crazy but I am sure none of you have envied or respect the lifestyle choices of the average homeless person.
Now don't take this like I am anti those guys or even anti everybody chipping in and buying them whatever. I just think everyone is so hip to help because its the groovy Bonnaroo thing to do. I saw at least 5 poor/alcoholic/homeless people already today. And I do what I can when I can to help anyone worse off than me without judging what they will do with the money because hey what the hell was I gonna do with it besides waste time.
And once again don't take this the wrong way but traveling to a place where you want to work and not bringing any proper id's and no money to survive on is in no way bad luck. That is severely poor planning. Bad luck would be if he had the documents and they got lost, destroyed, eaten by bears.
Since I work for a living, and have always worked since the age of 15, I have little sympathy for people who choose not to work.
I used to live in Cincinnati and came into contact with homeless poeople/ con-artist every day. Not that every homeless person is a con-artist; many have mental illnesses and need serious help. I would happily buy the former a hot dog or something.
But two able body young persons with no disabilities who show up to party 2 weeks in advance with nothing? Get a job, sir!
But two able body young persons with no disabilities who show up to party 2 weeks in advance with nothing? Get a job, sir!
I guess you missed thet part where one of them does have a job with Bonnaroo and the other one tried to get a job but was unable to due to his social security card.
But I guess there is no reason to let the facts get in the way of a self righteous rant........
Man, this thread took a down turn quick........thanks guys!!!
Post by DJ DonkeyPunch on Jun 9, 2006 10:11:49 GMT -5
dmbfanintn said:
They say they want to make a movie about the trip. Will they??? Who knows, but stranger things have happened. You never know who they will tell this story to.
If they make a movie, I want royalities based upon my initial donation!
dmbfanintn said:
Here a Q:
How many of the non-supports of the Kramer issue are Conservative/Rethuglican?
You may be surprised to find that even some of the supporters of the "Kramer issue" would generally consider themselves Conservative. I know that I for one would fall into most people's ideas of Conservative.
Hey don't forget the good vibes of Bonnaroo!!!! In less than a week, we will all be blowing hard earned money to have a really great time and for some - the memory of a lifetime - some of us donated to help Kramer out - GREAT - some of us didn't - GREAT - everyone made their choices and I think both side of it have been run into the ground now. I come to this thread to check on Kramer - not get into debates on whetherhe should have or shoud not or who should have or should not have.
There will always be less fortunate people who want to go to Bonnaroo and can't. Obviously we cannot donate to each and every one of them, although I'm sure we would if we could. But if people can help out one or two guys, why not? And these guys' lifestyles aren't necessarily the same as a homeless person's. Kramer and Anthony want to travel and see the country and eventually the world. They're not on the streets begging and asking for anyone's hospitality, they're lucky enough that people are giving it to them out of the goodness of their hearts. Some of us envy (myself included, although envy may be a bit strong of a word) their lifestyle because they aren't tied down by the responsibilies that most of us have. I don't understand why people are pointing out the negativity in this situation. Yes, it may be the Bonnaroo spirit that's causing people to be more charitable to these guys, and yes, they may not do the same were the situation different, but it's not. We'll never be able to treat everyone the same way and it may not be fair to everyone, but that's reality.
Not at all sorry to say that I still agree with the if these guys weren't Bonnaroo bound hippies most people on here wouldn't care.
I think this has become more and more obvious with the fact that many people are saying how they envy them and respect their lifestyle. Call me crazy but I am sure none of you have envied or respect the lifestyle choices of the average homeless person.
Now don't take this like I am anti those guys or even anti everybody chipping in and buying them whatever. I just think everyone is so hip to help because its the groovy Bonnaroo thing to do. I saw at least 5 poor/alcoholic/homeless people already today. And I do what I can when I can to help anyone worse off than me without judging what they will do with the money because hey what the hell was I gonna do with it besides waste time.
And once again don't take this the wrong way but traveling to a place where you want to work and not bringing any proper id's and no money to survive on is in no way bad luck. That is severely poor planning. Bad luck would be if he had the documents and they got lost, destroyed, eaten by bears.
Absofuckinglutely.
Many on here jumped down my throat about the whole "bum" thing, and, predictably, I lost karma. I hope I'm never in a situation where I am relying on others - but I feel that if I ever am, it will be because of some disaster, not my lack of initiative.
I'm glad we live in a country where there are programs and individuals that can offer support to homeless - it's crazy to have people suffer and starve on the streets...but it does bother me when able-bodied people don't try to escape that life.
...and of course I want to be Kramer - who the hell wants to spend all day in an office? But I also want to continue living in my house and paying my mortgage.
It sounds like he is a good, nice person. Hell, it would be fun to hear some of his tales from the road! I just don't understand portraying him as some free-spirit hero...
oh, and i guess i'm a social conservative / libertarian.
Post by dunedingirl on Jun 9, 2006 11:29:49 GMT -5
Wow..I go away for a day and all this happens. I am not sure what the big deal is with everyone complaining about Kramer and the donations and ticket purchase. I donated $25 toward his ticket and I have no problem with what they are doing. Years ago, I was homeless and lived on the streets for over a year. I was not a bum, per se, just very stupid and got myself in a terrible situation. I met alot of people that would help me out when they could and I had people that gave me horrible looks and called me names. I know how hard it is to get by on your own and if I can give a measly $25 bucks and let this guy have a great weekend, all the power to it. If you didn't donate $$$, then why should you give a rats ass about it. If I had not had people help me out occasionally, I probably wouldn't be alive today. You know, not everyone lives the same lifestyle as everyone else, and if these guys want to travel around and see the world and they aren't hurting anyone, I don't see what the big deal is.
I think of it the same way as I think about voting. If you didn't vote, you can't bitch about the results. If you didn't donate, it is not your place to gripe, bitch or moan about it. I am not being mean or spiteful, but I know when I was on the streets over 20 years ago I would have cried if someone had done something this nice for me. I believe in karma, literally, and I figure if I can give something back then it is all good
I still remember to this day the few people that helped me out, I don't remember names or dates but I will ALWAYS remember what they did for me..sometimes a smile and a kind word mean the world to you when you're having a crappy day
But two able body young persons with no disabilities who show up to party 2 weeks in advance with nothing? Get a job, sir!
How easy is it to make assumptions when we've never met...
Anthony, the fella that was able to score a position, lives with pain everyday. He's got a pretty gnarly scar on his right knee thats about 7 - 8" long top to bottom. Yet he's out there making some cash to enable them to move on after Bonnaroo. I didn't know about the scar until i saw him rubbing his knee. An accident was mentioned, but I didn't press him for details.
This morning on the way home from work I had the window down and the radio up, completely satisfied that another week of work was in the books. As I scanned the road ahead, there was a vehicle approaching me in the opposite lane about 40 yards out. Seconds later, a good sized field mouse bolted across the road and right under the tire of the vehicle. It was curtains for the mouse. There wasn't another car in sight for a hundred or so yards, nor any behind myself (rural road, get it?). What are the chances? Some of you may say, it's just some dumb mouse, but it made me think. If I ceased to exist today, would I be happy with what I've done in my lifetime? I'd say yes. Besides the soul sucking office life I've endured, I've lived overseas and visited countries that many folks only see in magazines or travel shows. I've hiked hundreds of miles to see waterfalls, rock formations, and mountains that aren't accessible by car... OK so I may be bragging a bit now, but hopefully you get the picture. Do what makes you happy. We only have a limited time on this Earth.
It is easy to assume, I admit I haven't read every single post on this very long thread.
I'm glad dude got a job. what about Kramer?? He has no SS card and can't get a job?
I think it's great that y'all gave them money, I just think y'all got taken for a ride. Maybe I'm a cynical, stingy prick. But I pay my own way and don't ask for anything.
Who shows up 2 weeks early anyway? Free-spirited heroes or open-handed bums? It's always the people that are looking for a free ride that makes it harder on the rest of us.
I'm not trying to bring y'all down. I love the sense of community that roo creates. I just think these guys are pushing it, perhaps overstaying their welcome...
Someone's gotta setup Bonnaroo for us to enjoy, don't they? I wish I could share with you some of the things I've seen behind the scenes while taking a friend to work, but I will tell you that it does not happen overnight.
Yes, Kramer had no SS card, but I saw the stamped paperwork from the SS office that would, in most cases, be sufficient to allow someone to be employed. According to the SS office, I wasn't there to confirm this, the paperwork is just as good as a SS card. It contained a lot more information than his name and number, that's for sure. I don't disagree that he should of had his card, but maybe it was eaten by a bear. I just haven't heard that story yet
I'm not trying to bring y'all down. I love the sense of community that roo creates. I just think these guys are pushing it, perhaps overstaying their welcome...
I think you'd have to do a lot worse to bring us down But if they're not inconveniencing anyone and people are helping them willingly, how are they overstaying their welcome? Even if their intentions weren't entirely pure (the optimist in me says they are, but I could bw wrong), if they're not doing harm to anyone, why does it matter?
It is easy to assume, I admit I haven't read every single post on this very long thread.
I'm glad dude got a job. what about Kramer?? He has no SS card and can't get a job?
I think it's great that y'all gave them money, I just think y'all got taken for a ride. Maybe I'm a cynical, stingy prick. But I pay my own way and don't ask for anything.
Who shows up 2 weeks early anyway? Free-spirited heroes or open-handed bums? It's always the people that are looking for a free ride that makes it harder on the rest of us.
I will try to put this as plainly as I can for the last time:
KRAMER DID NOT (READ DID NOT) ASK FOR ANY OF THIS!!!!!!!!
EVERYTHING that he has recieved has been at the kindness of the Manchester residents!!!
HE DID NOT ask for a ticket, the fund was completely My wife and my idea. He didn't even know about it until after the fund had made the goal, THEN I told him what was happening.
You make valid point, IF he had been begging and asking for this generosity, but HE DIDN'T.
WE CHOSE to help him!!!!!!!
If you don't agree with the people's action on here with giving to him, then go the hell away,
Stop regurgitating the same ole crap, we get it, you disagree with giving him money and a ticket, how many other ways are there to say it?????
I DO know this, Karma is REAL!!!! Good or Bad, it is!!!!!!