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Boy oh boy, it's getting ugly over there now. I get sick of the whole deal over there, so normally I'd say that we should just let Israel and whoever battle it out...But when Hezbollah gets involved, it's a whole new ballgame (for me personally). Of the few things that would get me back into a uniform, Hezbollah sits right at the top of that list.
I was just wondering what all of you folks thought about this whole clusterfluck.
Yeah, I'm not sure your gonna like what I think. Here's what I wrote in my blog this morning......
So much for spreading democracy across the middle east. Our pre-emtive strike on a sovereign nation (Iraq) has set a dangerous president. Israel now believes it has the right to attack a sovereign nation (Lebanon) for whatever means it deems necessary. Hezbollah is not the Lebanese government and it's people. Still, Israel feels the need to attack it's infrastructure and affect the lives of many if not most of the Lebanese people. How is this going to bring about a solution? Israel has a right to defend itself, but Hezbollah has captured 2 of thier soldiers, not the Lebanese gov't or the Lebanese people. Same as the Palestinian people, in Gaza, that are being held captive by the Israeli gov't, because of Hamas capturing a soldier. If you ask me, if a country was occupying what I believed to be my home country, you better damn well believe that I would fight, and perhaps die, to try and defeat this occupying power. How can we blame these people that live in squalor, while within view, across the wall, can be viewed the rich and prosperous people of Israel. Seperation is not the answer. WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER!!! How can peace be achieved through an eye for an eye? There are sinister forces at work, but the good must come together to defeat these forces. We need to stop fighting and look at the reasons that these people want to kill us. Maybe it's not all thier fault. Maybe, perhaps, it could possibly be our own selfishness and greed that has caused this chaos. Blood for oil. Watch the market drop and the prices rise. It's the world we live in. Somebody has got to speak up and put a stop to this madness. TEAR DOWN THE WALL!!!
Personally I'm sick and tired of this hipocracy that has been prevelant in the "modernized" world. How are these soldiers lives any more important than the innocent civilans that get killed by these soldiers? Why are Palestinans, Iraqis, and now Lebanese people expendable in the grand scheme of "protecting" Israel or the US. How many innocents have died in the Iraq war? 15,000 by most estimates, and growing. That's 5X as many as were killed in the 9/11 attacks, which we used to justify this war. All this to bring about democracy and peace? It all seems backwards to me.
I'm not defending the actions of Hamas or Hezbollah, but you have to look at the conditions that the Palestinians have had to live in, for 50 YEARS!!!!. Nothing has gotten better for them. Meanwhile Israel grows and prospers, starts building a wall, and grabs land that is rightfully the Palestinians. It's a big f*ckin mess, but all I know is killing more people and destroying more infrastructure is not gonna solve anything. Sorry for the long rant, but this conflict is THE root of Terrorism. If we're gonna ever try and win the war on terror, this problem has got to be solved first.
I don't necessarily disagree either though. The Palestinians surely have their share of legitimate grievances. Now who has the "rightful" claim to the disputed land is debatable. You'll find "experts" who argue one way or the other. One thing I know is that there needs to be a two state solution. Israel is between a rock and hard place as far as the capture of their soldiers goes. They can't show any kind of tolerance for these kinds of acts or else they're going to happen all the time - this is the Israeli POV obviously. One the other hand, destroying infrastructure and killing indiscriminately killing civilians is only going to make it worse - this is the Arab POV. And don't forget that all that needs to happen for the siege on Lebanon to stop is for them to free the Israeli soldiers. But also look at it like this - say a militant Mexican extremist group captures two American soldiers. Do you have any doubt that we (or any other country in a similar situation) would go in guns a blazin to get them back? Like I said, I understand the complaints the Palestinians have, and I don't blame them for fighting against anyone they perceive to be their enemy. But you can't create a monster and cry when he steps on a few buildings. By taking these soldiers hostage, they were provoking Israel. You can't complain when Israel answers and brings it to them.
Personally, I think the US should butt out of the entire affair and let the interested parties have at it. But when it comes to Hezbollah, I say we burn every last one of them.
Yeah, I think Hezbollah doesn't really have a say in the whole conflict. But I'm sure Hamas is more than grateful for any support they can receive. My major beef is with Israel though. They just push back waaaay too hard in thier responses, to parties which aren't involved, which creates more chaos. Personally I think it's gonna take the entire world community chastising Israel and stopping it's support of them, including the US. Which would never happen under this administration, barring an unforseen unspeakable act on Israel's part. I really think that's the only way Israel would get the message, and cause them to pull back. But as long as they have a virtual blank check to do what they want, they will.
I'm interested to see what happens next, in the Gaza situation after all that's happened today in Lebanon.
Post by papageorgio on Jul 13, 2006 21:04:58 GMT -5
does it strike any was as odd that the U.S. goverment says they support democracy and yet if they do not lke the result of an election changes thier mind. It is easy to say we should butt out but years of policy cannot be ignored. We have been a major contributer to the builing up of Israelsl military. When Iraq invaded kuwuit (although I dont believe it was right) they were trying to take back a port that was bascically taken from them. Kuwait being a puppet goverment of the British. When I lived in Northern Ireland in the 90s the major gas station was Q8. Dont get me wrong you cant get into the game of making all the injustices right ,sometimes you have to move forward. Otherwise Id say give america back to the american indians (my mothers a choctaw) Badfish if you want to rejoin the military go ahead. And you may have good reasons behind your opinons but dont kid yourself that you will have a say in what you do. To me it takes more courage to stand up peace. I know many a person who is afraid to stand up against war for fear they will be labeled as unsupportive of the troops ( what a shame) We really cant always put ourselves in others shoes it becomes a tit for tat cycle of violence leaving the whole world blind with dentures. Ever wonder why we can test our missles whenever we want? We have stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction but thats ok because Why? Instead of attacking Iraq we should of made a good will reduction of our own nuclear weapon arsenal . Now there an idea that will cause a lot to squirm. Peace!
I'm aware of how the military works, thank you. But if there's even the slightest chance of getting within proximity to Hezbollah, it's worth it to me.
As for peace - there will never be peace between me and the group that killed my father. Never, ever, under any circumstances. So long as I'm breathing, Hezbollah is not at peace.
With all due respect to your father, I wonder if he was killed in Beirut or another foreign land... or here in the Homeland. I know it doesn't bring him back, and I don't question his choice to have served(if indeed it was a choice), but I've gotta throw my support behind the rock thrower in his own 'country' over the invader in the tank(or bulldozer).
Especially since our military is largely composed of poor people who don't have any other option but to serve. Then they do their time without asking questions and come home to a government who cuts their benefits(health and other) in order to afford increased spending on privatized military be it Blackhawk Mercenaries in New Orleans or Haliburton/KBR funneling profits back to our v.p.
They just took the old adage from P-funk about the drug war and applied it to everything. "There's more money in pretending to stop it than there is in selling it ". All they need to do is promote the fear the fuels it. That's where us masses come in. Amazing how many of us are ready to ..."make a parking lot" out of a region over a buck a gallon. Oh right and 9/11. But 15 of those 19 were Saudi's. And our president would have blacked that part out TOO if they would have let him.
Anyone who signs up voluntarily at this point... ... ... should have done a little more reading... and feared a little less about how to pay for college...
Hold bread out to a peasant, make a friend. Hold up a gun, make a martyr. To quote Steve Earle... .... "just another poor boy, fighting in a rich man's war".
Post by Hipster Doofus on Jul 14, 2006 9:28:18 GMT -5
danbird said:
Yeah, I'm not sure your gonna like what I think. Here's what I wrote in my blog this morning......
So much for spreading democracy across the middle east. Our pre-emtive strike on a sovereign nation (Iraq) has set a dangerous president. Israel now believes it has the right to attack a sovereign nation (Lebanon) for whatever means it deems necessary.
Without reading the rest of your post yet I do have to say that Israel has been attacking and/or occupying other countries, and specifically Lebanon, long before the US did anything to Iraq.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I just don't think this is something that should be pinned on the US.
Post by Hipster Doofus on Jul 14, 2006 9:49:56 GMT -5
One of my best friends is Lebanese and has gone back to visit for a few weeks every summer until this year....normally he would be there right now. I was drinking with him last night and this is definitely the most upset I've seen him, and I've heard a lot from him considering he was a political science major who just finished up his masters.
When it comes to Israel I usually just stay out of the conversation. To me it's kind of like abortion....unless you're personally involved in the situation your opinion doesn't matter and really doesn't need to be heard. Both sides will fight to the death for what they whole-heartedly believe is theirs. Nothing we say or do is going to change that.
I will say that this Hezbollah situation does scare me. These are the types of things that can start huge conflicts. I'm sure most of you know this, but Hezbollah is backed by Iran and Syria. With the tough talk that Bush has been directing towards Syria and our obvious issues with Iran I could see us getting involved and this spiraling out of control. Then you have N. Korea sitting over there kind of like the Japan of WWII.....I don't know......Bush, please just stay the F out.
With all due respect to your father, I wonder if he was killed in Beirut or another foreign land... or here in the Homeland. I know it doesn't bring him back, and I don't question his choice to have served(if indeed it was a choice), but I've gotta throw my support behind the rock thrower in his own 'country' over the invader in the tank(or bulldozer).
Invader? My father was part of a multi national peacekeeping force brought in at the request of the Lebanese government to help stabilize the situation brought on by the Lebanese Civil War. I'm not quite sure how they would qualify as invaders when they were asked by the Lebanese to come.
He was murdered along with 219 other US Marines, 18 Sailors, 3 Soldiers, and 58 French paratroopers.
I know people will look down their nose at me for this attitude, but I really don't care. People will say that it takes a bigger man to walk away...I guess in this case I'm just not the bigger man.
Yeah, didn't mean to infer it was a clear one or the other. These days, there is certainly no clarity. I am afraid, however, that your personal reaction to your father's murder would be just about what the Hezzbollah would want. More attention from the U.S. = more from Syria, Iran, China, Russia, = legitimacy=power. I know, coming from a stranger, on the internet no less, it rings hollow compared to how you must miss your dad. It's just not real easy to stand up for peace in the heat of reaction. Someone must take the first step. I would guess that those who were responsible for the death of your father would consider their actions righteous as well, to avenge the oppression... ... etc, etc Extremism is the result of the lack of tolerance, no matter what color your flag is. Blessed are the peacemakers...yada yada. Gotta let love push out hate(fear). The opportunity is yours to turn the other cheek, be part of ending the cycle. And it will feel good, knowing what you know, having lost what you did, to be involved in changing the world so that fewer may have to endure what you have. Or not. I just gotta represent for what I believe to be part of the solution instead of the pollution. And whether the Hezzbollah deserve it or not, it is the right thing to do. Besides, look at the billions we funnel into Israel to bulldoze the Gaza Strip. Someone's gotta counter that utter crap.
Not to mention, as stated above, to re-enlist wouldn't necessarily avenge anything. You might be sent to Venezuela to look for weapons of mass destruction(or spread democracy-same thing, right ?). You know what a "madman" Chavez is.
Last Edit: Jul 14, 2006 16:07:58 GMT -5 by reehash - Back to Top
Here's a quick link to a scary scenario that involves Iran, Rumsfeld, and several pissed off Generals. It's lengthy, but the powers that be are counting on all of us to be lazy...
Israel has been attacking and/or occupying other countries, and specifically Lebanon, long before the US did anything to Iraq.
Yeah, I realize that. I was more or less stating, that now that the US has set the pre-emtive strike policy, all for "protecting the homeland", that it kinda becomes a blank check to Israel to do whatever it must to protect it's homeland. I think supporting Israel, because of what he Bible says, is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. It needs to stop, but it won't, as long as we have our own religious zelot in the White House.
And Badfish, I completely understand your fervant hatred for Hezbollah. I've never lost a close family member, so I can't begin to understand how that might feel, or the emptiness that it leaves behind. Your father was there as a peacekeeper, and I think keeping the peace is what we all need to be working towards.
Time to reinstate a Monroe Doctrine type policy that keeps our noses here in our own hemisphere. This business of "peacekeeping" is a rouse for resource colonization, revenge, political capital, or whatever the reason of the moment is. Our lack of dedication to environmental reform alone will turn out to be one of the worst forms of global terrorism. We don't take care of our own, in part, because the money trail is easier to muddle if we run it internationally. And anyone who speaks up is labelled unpatriotic. I'm tired of it. Follow the money. Look at how the rest of the "civilized world" protects it's population at sea level. And then look at how we employ mercenaries to shoot at looters. It's all about propelling a race divide, a class divide, or whatever will put enough fear in our hearts to convince us that we need to do something(read:channel more money into the war machine). Our "peacekeepers" are targets brought straight to the terrorists and sacrificed for the sake of the manipulation of our emotions and pursestrings. Why else would we condone and promote such terror. Disbelief ? Just look at the picture from 1982 when Rumsy is shaking old Sadaam's hand and presenting him with the deal where he AQUIRED the very WMD's that we bombed the shit out of his people's infrastructure for. By the way, Osama is in North Korea, that's why we'll never find him. Israel, if ya wanna bomb airports, bridges, and civilians because two soldiers were kidnapped, then you're the terrorist ! ANEYEFORANEYEFORANEYEFORANEYEFORANEYE ad infinitem. "Maggie what have we done ?!"
Post by melikecheese on Jul 17, 2006 16:09:24 GMT -5
keeping our nose out of the worlds business would be a big mistake. How can the world power just ignore everything. While we do a lot of things I don't agree with we poke our noses into many countries to provide much needed help. We don't only poke our noses around to bomb people and create governments we like.
Its a scary situation out there. I feel bad for the people who just want to live. Could you imagine getting bombed 2 weeks before bonnaroo and not being able to go.
I feel ya. And I shouldn't just accentuate the negative. Problem is, when we DO give, most of the food is experimental quality-and would not pass inspection in this country. The aid money is often accompanied with sanction-like restrictions on it's use, etc.
What could be construed as good, is the level of wealth that some have attained that allow them to give on a very large scale. That being said, it is no reason to accept the separation of wealth that widens daily.
But i must beg to differ that the world needs a superpower or 'world power'. Much of the developing world is realizing that we are not all what we are cracked up to be. There is no need for such a robinhood mentality. i.e. We wouldn't need to be so generous if we weren't so theivous and greedy. If there is a resource for us to colonialize, we will be there screaming democracy and aid. ...til the gold is gone. If you have nothing we want, woe is to you.
We give tokenly compared to what we take.
"We have oceans of butter, we have warehouses of wine. We got famine, when we need it. We got designer crime. It's a miracle." Roger Waters
+ the Monroe Doctrine pretty much just says-if you attack us or someone in our hemisphere basically, we gotta right to f*ck your shit up. Doesn't really deal with how much we pillage steal, or ...ahem, give. i'll try to quit now, really. maybe
i dont see how killing people who kill people will end the killing of people. i do see how food, water, shelter, and an education would stop all of this. the first world countries feed hundereds of pounds of grain to live stock in exchange for a few pounds of meat. we could feed the world if we wanted to. but we dont. its sad. how can we watch people starve to death. how can we watch a child die of some minor diease because tehy cant afford 50 cents worth of medicine or a a 3 cent vaccine when they are born. how can we let millions of africans die of aids because they cant afford condoms and medecine. i cannot beleive the things that our government sits around watches and does nothing. i guess they did it to our own people in new orleans how should i expect any thing but complete incompetence. id much rather see billions of dollars going to feed the poorest people on earth not billions on bombs. especially when we put all of these people in power. we put saddam in power. nuts we gave him a key to the city of detroit. we supplied bin laden with weapons to fight the russians and put him in the spot to do what he did. it wasnt iraq. it was the taliban. it was us. i think the us is the most powerful disruptive and evil force on earth. the saudi family would have been overthrown decades ago if it werent for us keeping them there so the powers that be can rake in the oil profits. its disgusting. and thats why bin laden attacked us. not because he hates freedom or some bush b.s. canada looks better everyday. if they would only move roo there id be outta here
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2006 21:05:32 GMT -5 by Dude - Back to Top
The problem is that the disparagement between classes is what is supposed to drive capitalism. Everyone can't have everything or no one would work. These days, though, even if you work, you may not be able to afford medicine. That's the part about capitalism that no one speaks of. When folks or corporations use advantage to take advantage. It is all greed and fear based. Better earn it up so you can buy it up so we can use it up so daddy gets paid to make more. Can't last in a world of exploding population. Plus it rewards greed and assumes that those who choose to consume less or work less to be weak.
I have long been a proponent of a system of comparative worth. In such a system, you would be paid with respect to what you contribute. Whereas, a garbage man or woman makes about what a doctor would, cuz without garbage removal, we'd all be sick. Kinda takes into account the larger picture, and lets no one take unfair advantage, just because they can or "have the drive or ambition". Attorneys starve under this system, by the way. No room for parasites...
Just yesterday, I had a thought that would maybe expand upon this in a useful way. Perhaps we should all be paid in units that would take into account how light our footsteps were as well as what we give. Kind of like when a polluting company buys credits to offset their evil. The pollution still occurs, but they are forced to give back in other ways. Or how Bonnaroo buys green energy credits. If we all were valued in this sort of way, it would kind of force intant karma on folks. Less waste, less greed, more equality. No one could act all high and mighty in public, and then be wasteful and greedy when no one was looking. Don't know how it would all get tabulated. But I would guess a number could be assigned to each product we bought, each mile we drive, each pound of trash we throw away, each ton we recycle.
Now I'm not one to give the government more power by ANY means. It just seems they could be a little more productive with their time. Things like this Are starting to come around too. Tax credits on hybrid vehicles is an example of a good start. We need to get away from Price as our bottom line and shift to value. Less people would feel the need to promote child slavery and environmental degradation elsewhere by purchasing cheap camping supplies at MallWart if a true cost was assigned to those goods.
Maybe I'm just crazy. But I kind of like the idea of being rewarded for doing the right thing. The day when a hybrid driving, organic food buying, recycling, volunteering, vegetarian has as much influence as a corporate white collar crook is a day I long for. And until that day, I will not give up doing all those things. Not because it's easy. Not because society rewards it. But because it is righteous, and the rest of the world needs to see examples that we are not ALL terrorists.
Post by Hipster Doofus on Jul 19, 2006 10:20:38 GMT -5
reehash said:
I have long been a proponent of a system of comparative worth. In such a system, you would be paid with respect to what you contribute. Whereas, a garbage man or woman makes about what a doctor would, cuz without garbage removal, we'd all be sick. Kinda takes into account the larger picture, and lets no one take unfair advantage, just because they can or "have the drive or ambition".
Deathreau, I beg of you, to demonstrate how it is that my logic runs astray. For without anything but a challenge, you have demonstated no logic at all !
Aquarium- Communism has total equality as it's root premise. Comparative worth is less about equality, and more about accountability.
The biggest problem with capitalism AND communism is that they have been pitted against one another for so long. Communism, according to Marx, has the assumed failure of capitalism as it's first principle. I would argue that capitalism makes the same assumption about communism, albeit unwritten. If'n we'd mash the two together, I'm sure we could come up with a plan that would allow equal access to all, regardless of how much we had when we started. Capitalism gives the advantage to the rich. Communism gives it to the government. Comparative worth would give advantage to the worthy, in terms of what they give vs. what they take. Tis the only way I can think of to allow for the most pleasantness to the most people. Besides, we don't operate in a true free market anyways when you consider all of the subsidies that exist. For example, in 1999(only chosen because I have the numbers in front of me), the United States consumed 97 quadrillion BTU's of energy in total. That same year, Russia, Japan, Germany, India, France, and the UK, used a combined total of 94 quadrillion BTU's of energy. Now by simple economics, if demand exceeds supply(and it clearly does) prices rise proportionately. Why then, even at 3 bucks a gallon, do we pay less, way less, than any of the aforementioned countries ? Subsidized oil prices ! Incentives we give through collected taxes or tax breaks to multinational oil companies for "exploration"(exploitation), etc.
And if you would look at trickle down theory or "Reaganomics" thru non western eyes, one would realize that giving industry all these breaks at record profits is not working. It's not trickling down to the workerperson. Quite similar to communism, where the government takes the place of the corporation. Either way, it ain't working.
But I think y'all just like pulling my rant trigger ! My fingers eroded a quarter inch on this one alone !
Last Edit: Jul 19, 2006 13:28:36 GMT -5 by reehash - Back to Top
Post by Hipster Doofus on Jul 19, 2006 13:56:14 GMT -5
Haha, I'm sorry, I was going to type more, but I got pulled away from the desk.
Under no circumstances should a doctor and garbage man be paid the same. To become a doctor it takes years and years of hard work and determination, to become a garbage man it takes some muscles and a bad sense of smell (I am in no way trying to demean garbage men - or women, but you know what I mean). If both jobs paid the same, what would urge people to go through hell to become a doctor (and how would they repay their $100,000 school loans for that matter)......would they do it out of the good of their heart? Ha!! I'm sure there would be a select few, but we don't live in a utopia and we never will.
I'm with ya. I guess I just gave an example that raises eyebrows so people perk up and think a little. Obviously, I wouldn't want someone with a garbageperson's credentials operating on me. But in said system of comparative worth, we Could put a higher value on things like healthcare and education. In My perfect world, both would be made universal, every bit as important as an army, or roadways. If a doctor pays less for his/her education And has no malpractice insurance to consider, your doctor bill might more closely resemble your trash bill. Given that the world needs ditchdiggers, so to speak, why do we act like ditchdiggers don't need doctors ? Simple answer: Because the haves need power over the havenots. So much so that them increasing their wealth has taken precedence over some having anything at all. Why else, as dudewheresmyroo asks, do we let children starve?
"They had sex in Pennsylvania..., a Brazillian grew a tree..., a doctor in Manhattan saved a dying man for free... .... ... I'ts a miracle." Roger Waters
well education should be free. and the docotrs would get tehir satisfaction out of saving lives and working in a pleasent environment. plus respect form the community. the garbage man does physical labor in bad weather and a stinky nasty work place. so those who work at an eduction still get perks. they just dont get to drive ferraris and live in million dollar homes while children are starving and dying of simple diseases that were cured decades ago. i dont think it will ever happen. greed is a much too powerful evil. but it can be done in small communities of like minded people. but i guess those are called cults in todays society.
