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Post by awolfatthedoor on Dec 17, 2010 20:33:09 GMT -5
A couple of thoughts about MBDTF: 1) It's beyond obvious that this is better than Graduation. Anyone with a set of functioning ears and a functioning brain can tell this. 2) He is a much better rapper than he used to be. This is also beyond obvious. Not saying MBDTF is better than LR or CD. I'm just saying that he's a better rapper than he used to be.
If you don't like the album or Kanye I understand. Music is subjective. But I don't really think the above 2 things can be contested.
I just don't think that's accurate, approo. I'd say Kanye's appeal is pretty universal; there aren't many pop stars besides him who can lay claim to that.
And, to sort of echo what juggs said earlier in a sort-of wider scope, the people that hate him or don't like him either a) don't like hip-hop; b) haven't heard his music; or c) hate him for reasons beyond his actual music.
If you are claiming his album is one of the better pop albums of the year, I might could get on board with that. But I think one of the main reasons some people are making the argument that it is the best hip hop album of the year and one of the best in a long while is because it has mass pop appeal. Which leads back to what I said about his most vocal and supportive audiences.
And if you are saying that people that don't like Kanye don't like hip hop, haven't heard his music, or hate him for other reasons then you are completely discrediting people's preferences, which comes off as kind of shallow. Not everyone with ears has to like this or that kind of music. I believe Juggs' original statement was that people who don't have his album in their year end lists are either a, b, or c. Which I still don't agree with, citing myself as a prime example.
Look, I have all of Kanye's albums (not legally, of course) and this is still my 3rd favorite. Its good, for sure. College Dropout remains number one in my book and for me Graduation was better all the way through (there is only one song on there I skip everytime, whereas there are two or three I skip on MBDTF and there are fewer tracks where I was really impressed on first listen).
If it is your favorite album of the year fine. I can kind of see why some people like it so much. But its not the end all be all of hip hop albums, much less a hands down pick for the best hip hop album of this year.
Post by awolfatthedoor on Dec 17, 2010 23:22:49 GMT -5
It's not my favorite album of the year. And the fact that you think it can be the best pop album of the year but couldn't possibly be the best hip-hop album of the year says something. You sound like a snob. I can understand how you could think Big Boi has the best pop album of the year but ...
Also the fact that you think Graduation is better than Late Registration is ummm...well if you don't have anything nice to say.
It's not my favorite album of the year. And the fact that you think it can be the best pop album of the year but couldn't possibly be the best hip-hop album of the year says something. You sound like a snob. I can understand how you could think Big Boi has the best pop album of the year but ...
Also the fact that you think Graduation is better than Late Registration is ummm...well if you don't have anything nice to say.
I didn't say it was the best pop album of the year. I said I could see how it could be considered one of the best. And as far as all the albums that had a lot of mainstrean and commercial success this year, I would say MBDTF is one of the better ones. My main point is that just because it has such mainstream, pop appeal doesn't make it the best hip hop album of the year. Different does not equal best. Your comprehension skills are minimal.
And as far as Late Registration vs. Graduation.. Didn't you just say music was subjective? Weird..
If you are claiming his album is one of the better pop albums of the year, I might could get on board with that. But I think one of the main reasons some people are making the argument that it is the best hip hop album of the year and one of the best in a long while is because it has mass pop appeal. Which leads back to what I said about his most vocal and supportive audiences.
You're making a distinction between pop music and "regular music" that "serious fans" like. That's just dumb. Because Kanye has a bunch of fans, he can be good for those people but not for people that like hip-hop.
but Kanye is largely for the rock/pop crowd, college kids, or those who only really hear mainstream hip hop and want something better. In that sense he delivers.
This is just douchey.
My point is your posts indicate that you look down on albums that have "pop appeal" and I'm not even sure what you're saying. You think the people here like Kanye's album because it has "pop appeal" not because the songs are there are great and the album is cohesive? You're just exhibiting the classic douche move of people that are "real music fans" and trying to distinguish between music with "popular appeal" and whatever you like. There's good music and bad music. You either think the album is good or you don't. There is good hip hop, and there is bad hip hop. Vick, nodepression, and the other Kanye fans aren't distinguishing aren't removing Kanye from real hip-hop like you are. Oh and nice ad hominem brilliant stuff.
Music is subjective to some extent. If you don't like Radiohead, for example, I can't say I blame you for not liking them. I get it. It's not your thing. Move along nothing to see here. But if you like Radiohead and you think Pablo Honey is better than OK Computer, then you just have bad taste.
Post by Mista Don't Play on Dec 18, 2010 0:35:43 GMT -5
You completely missed again. I'm thinking you aren't going to get what I am trying to say, so this may be pointless, but...
I never said there was anything wrong with "pop" music. I have said before I think it can largely be a good thing when music can be made more accessible.
Let me simplify my comments for you regarding the album being one of the better pop albums vs. hip hop albums. If you took the most commercially successful, top 40, etc. albums of this year I would say Kanye's is one of the most credible, as far as the quality of music goes, thus one of the better pop albums, I would also give preference because I have a strong liking of hip hop. But if I was putting it up against all the other hip hop releases of the year, there are some I would think are better, albums that wouldn't be classified as pop, for whatever reason. And If you want to look at it just as music, thats fine too, I think there are plenty of other releases this year that are better. It can be looked at from different perspectives. But at the end of the day it is all based on preference. I wasn't saying that it had to either be a pop album or a hip hop album, it can be both or either, it doesn't have to be so concrete and anyone with an open mind can look at it in different lights.
I said I understood why a lot of people like the album. I like the album. But I don't think it is great, I have my criticisms.
You think the people here like Kanye's album because it has "pop appeal" not because the songs are there are great and the album is cohesive?
As far as me saying Kanye's album got such exaggerated praise because of its pop appeal, I was primarily referring to the media and music critics not the people on this board.
But if you like Radiohead and you think Pablo Honey is better than OK Computer, then you just have bad taste.
If you want to single out douchey comments, look no further than your own post. Not that I would ever listen to Pablo over OK, but if someone likes that kind of Radiohead then thats their prerogative, same applies to Kanye or any other artist.
And for the record. Late Registration is bloated. There are some really good songs on there, but there are more throw away tracks on that album than any other of his releases (excluding 808s).
Hopefully we can end this debate as it seems to take a new form every other week and there will never be a real resolution because of differing tastes. The fact is some people love the album, some like it, some don't like it. It may be on a lot of top album of the year lists, but there is no reason it should be on everyones list, because, drum roll please...music is subjective.
Post by Mista Don't Play on Dec 18, 2010 0:56:11 GMT -5
While we are on the subject of hip hop, this week features releases from 9th Wonder & David Banner and a new Ghostface album, as already mentioned by Juggs. The 9th Wonder/David Banner album should be a good one. I know already the production will be stellar, as 9th Wonder never disappoints. I strongly recommend checking out his work, especially if you are a fan of soul samples in your beats. Banner can be hit or miss on the mic, but hopefully he will come through. I have heard a few songs and I thought they were pretty good.
Looking forward to hearing the new Ghostface album. He's always been my favorite Wu member and I'm hoping this album is better than the last. There were some really good songs on there, but the R&B rap album left something to be desired coming from Ghost
Edit- Just briefly listened to the new Ghostface and its a good one.
Post by awolfatthedoor on Dec 18, 2010 1:46:24 GMT -5
I guess I just misunderestimated you. Whenever I talk about music with anyone I don't really factor in what number NME put the album at on their eoy list or where it rests on the top 40. I just talk about the music.
As far as the Ghostface album, sang has hyped me up to the point if it's not great I'll be mighty disappointed. He said it was better than Fishscale, and if it's not I'm visiting his house with pitchforks(lol) at torches.
Post by Mista Don't Play on Dec 18, 2010 2:10:18 GMT -5
Thats the tough thing about music, it almost always comes down to preference, and that almost always clouds the issue. I don't base my opinions on quality of music on top 40 rankings or year end lists either, in fact I usually strongly disagree with most of them, but then again its all about preference, which is what makes it so great and so frustrating at the same time. In this case, differing perspectives on an album completely distorted the points being made. Anyway, moving on..
Back to the new Ghostface. Its good. I need to listen to it more and see if it has the same lasting appeal, but right now I can't say its better than Fishscale. If I had to decide right now I would still take Fishscale, but that doesn't take anything away from The Apollo Kids. Time will tell for me, but Fishscale is going to be hard to top, there are some songs on there that still tickle my soul like they did almost five years ago. But who knows, it might play out differently for you, but either way I don't see you being disappointed with the new one at all.
Post by Mista Don't Play on Dec 18, 2010 11:48:18 GMT -5
Citing the samples used doesn't really give any credibility to the anti-pop argument. 90% of the people that hear any of his records couldn't tell you or couldn't care less where the samples came from. "Jesus Walks" sampled a choir, and that remains one of his most popular songs. Samples alone don't make a song or album less accessible. Also, the radio version of Runaway is not 9 mins, so thats irrelevant as well. Saying that this is his least accessible album doesn't mean much considering how accessible all of his albums have been.
Maybe its not pop the way you hear it, but for an album to do that well commercially and have a strong presence on the radio, there has to be some mainstream appeal to it. My pop allusions were made based on comparing this album to other pop-ular, commercially successful releases this year. I never said this was a "pop" album. You made that up. If I were filing this album in a record store I would not put it in the pop section. But if you really want to break it down there are definitely plenty of pop sensibilities in the album. Half of the songs on the album have a pop sound to them (most specifically All of the Lights, Lost in the World, Hell of a Life, Blame Game, & Devil In a New Dress). But there isn't anything wrong with that. I don't ever recall saying that was a bad thing or that the album was any less credible or the quality of the music was any less because of it, but for you to say the album isn't pop at all is ludicrous. Its a little different at times, but its not some "bizarre", out there, piece of abstract art. My criticisms of the album had nothing to do with whether it was pop or not, so I don't know why you are making such a fuss over it, when its undeniable there are pop elements to the album. I can't tell who you are trying to convince more, me or yourself.
It's the least pop thing he's done in years.
Of course it is, his last album was strictly pop music and came out 2 years ago. He could've done a duet album with Lady Gaga and it might've ended up the least pop thing he's done in years.
If you're restricting hip-hop to sampled beats
News flash. Almost all of Kanye's beats feature samples.
Also, the statement that the only people who like Kanye's stuff is the rock/pop crowd, college kids, or those who only hear mainstream hip-hop is f*cking insane.
Thats not what I said. I said he appeals to many fan bases, but those the most, and those also happen to be the most vocal (ie the voice represented by most media/music critics)
Go to Okayplayer.com's forums
If you are citing a message board to determine how amazing or "real" an album is, then I think we just need stop
You don't like it, fine.
I actually said multiple times that I liked it, I like almost all of Kanye's work, but I didn't think it was great or one of the absolute best of the year. You guys just want to polarize the argument, which is quacking lame and close minded. Just because its not one of my 15 or so favorite albums of the year doesn't mean I don't think its a good album, nor does it mean that I don't like hip hop. I just have a few criticisms of the album that some of you either don't see or don't care about. Just because I don't give the album a 10 doesn't mean that it went over my head or I don't appreciate it, I just think it was lacking in some areas and overdone in others. It could have been better.
You can continue to dwell on the fact that everyone doesn't hear music exactly the way you do if you want, but I would like to move on to something else
I think Michael Vick's kind of right here. I don't think this was intended to be a pop album. I think it was intended as an artistic statement with a couple pop songs on it. And I think his artistic statement is "I'm rich out of touch and listen to a lot of club music".
I also kind of want to make everyone who likes Kanye's new album so much to take a NO NO WORD!!! test. And then I want them all to come back in ten years, hook themselves up to a polygraph and tell me it's better than The College Dropout or even halfway listenable.
Last Edit: Dec 18, 2010 19:19:09 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
Post by steveternal on Dec 18, 2010 23:24:23 GMT -5
^^^The problem, as I see it, is that MBDTF is poised to make a minor redefinition of what pop music is, if not due to its artistic merits, then because of its (guaranteed) commercial success. So it's right to say that it is NOT pop, as pop generally doesn't sound like this; likewise, it is right to say that it IS pop, as pop will continue to move in this direction.
Consider this: do you think "Sgt. Pepper" was categorized as pop when it was first released?
(I don't mean to overstate the importance of this record by comparing it to Sgt. Pepper... Personally, I'm little more than pleasantly surprised by it.)
This is Happening already sounds horribly outdated and terrible. Sorry that I haven't given it the unwavering praise that most everyone has, but its just not that good. This coming from someone who LOVES Sounds of Silver.
This is Happening already sounds horribly outdated and terrible. Sorry that I haven't given it the unwavering praise that most everyone has, but its just not that good. This is coming from someone who LOVES Sounds of Silver.
Also, I don't understand for a second how anyone can claim that this Kanye album is pop. If anything, it's the most inaccessible album he's ever made. It kicks off with a bizarre Nicki Minaj spoken piece that transitions into a clattering RZA beat. The first single sampled King Crimson and an African children's choir. The biggest "hit" off the album so far is Runaway, which is 9 minutes long. It wraps up with a spoken word interlude from Gil Scott-Heron before finishing with the Bon Iver sampling "Lost In The World." "Monster" might be the most bizarre hip-hop song released to radio this year. It's got stellar guest turns from people ranging from Jay-Z to Justin Vernon. This is one of the most anti-pop rap albums I've heard this year.
You want a "pop" rap album? Go check out Recovery, or Teflon Don - both were clearly made for pop radio. Hell, go listen to Thank Me Later, which is the most calculated album I've ever heard.
And then I want them all to come back in ten years, hook themselves up to a polygraph and tell me it's better than The College Dropout or even halfway listenable.
I think this is a problem that people have - I'm not necessarily looking for the album that will hold up the best over the next decade, I want the album that is the best, for this time period, this year, representing now.
Chuck Klosterman once made a remark (which I will paraphrase, since I can't recall exactly what it is), discussing Chumbawumba v. Bob Dylan in 1997, where "Tubthumping" was ubiquitous, but "Time Out Of Mind" was clearly one of the finer albums of the year. Long story short, the whole concept was that yes, clearly in the long run TOOM was a better album, but for a representation of that year, the culture and zeitgeist of the time it was recorded in, you'd clearly have to make an argument for Chumbawumba. That comment always stuck with me, because it makes some sense.
I mean, lots of albums that I loved have aged terribly, and lots of albums that I didn't like have matured and gained more favor. Hell, I think that "One Life Stand" and "This Is Happening" are two of the better albums of the year, but in ten years they could sound horribly outdated and terrible. That's just the way music works.
Well, I see your point here, but I disagree to some extent.
I think when it comes to things like this, you need to differentiate between "favorite" and "greatest." To me, and I may be in the minority here, they are two different things. You can personally like an album and still admit that that same album is influential or well-done. Animal Collective's Merriweather Post Pavilion is an example for me. It isn't my favorite, but I don't necessarily think it didn't deserve all the critical praise that it got, because I can recognize its merits. It just isn't my thing.
The reason I think it's important to draw that distinction is that I think when you sit down to try to come up with the greatest albums from the past year or even past decade, you do have to take into account how they'll hold up over time. Just because Norah Jones' Come Away With Me or Green Day's American Idiot were two of the more ubiquitous and best-selling records of the past decade does not mean they were two of the best, for instance. Not to equate your premise of permeating our culture with selling records--I realize these are two different things.
Maybe it's just me, but when I'm really thinking about or analyzing music, I often think about how certain artists or albums will be remembered or how future generations will perceive them . And I think that's what is truly brilliant about albums like MBDTF, as rare as they are--albums that people will still hold in reverence years from now, in part BECAUSE they are so emblematic of the time during which they were made. But, it takes an album that defines its era of music so well that it transcends that era to truly be a landmark album, which is why I think one should take into consideration how they think an album will "age." It separates the good albums from the great, IMO, the great albums being ones that both define and transcend their generation of music (see: Thriller, Sgt. Pepper's, etc.). I think MBDTF accomplishes this; it is so brilliant and inventive in its beats, arrangements, ambitions, etc. that it transcends the hip-hop genre, yet it is still in the vein of the current generation of hip-hop, if that makes sense.
So, in a way I agree that how palpable an album's cultural impact was should define its role, but in a way, I don't.
Also, to be clear to anyone who might get their pannies in a bunch, I am NOT saying MBDTF is as good as Thriller or Sgt. Pepper's. Just pointing out that there is a possibility that MBDTF will be seen as emblematic of its generation years from now.
1. Mumford and Sons - Sigh No More 2. Arcade Fire - The Suburbs 3. Kings of Leon - Come Around Sundown 4. High on Fire - Snakes For The Divine 5. Sharon Jones and the Dap Kings - I Learned The Hard Way 6. Black Keys - Brothers 7. The National - High Violet 8. Jimi Hendrix - Valleys of Neptune 9. Fear Factory - Mechanize 10. Brian Eno - Small Craft on a Milk Sea
1.black keys-brothers 2.local natives-gorilla manor 3.punch brothers-antifogmatic 4.oceansize-self preserved while the bodies float up 5.carolina chocolate drops-genuine negro jig 6.sade-soldier of love 7.ghostface killah-apollo kids 8.reflection eternal-revolutions per minute 9.big boi- sir lucious left foot: the son of chico dusty 10.cee-lo green- the lady killer 11.janelle monae-the archandroid 12.jonsi-go 13.spoon-transference 14.tame impala-innerspeaker 15.broken bells-broken bells 16.john legend & the roots-wake up 17.the roots-how i got over 18.sufjan stevens- age of adz 19.gayngs-relayted 20.tallest man on earth-the wild hunt 21.grace potter & the nocturnals- grace potter & nocturnal 22.sharon jones & the dap kings- i learned the hard way 23.erykah badu-new amerykah part 2: return of the ankh 24.blitzen trapper-destroyer of the void
this is my list for now.i'm still in the process of listening to albums i missed during the year.
i think my dark beautiful twisted fantasy is a really wonderful album. i think it is great b/c it is kanye doing what he does best, loving himself. i do NOT think it is pop. i don't really think that this will get any play at all on the stations here in san antonio and if it were pop, it would.
i still think he is a prick, but i love the extended video for runaway with the ballet dancers. except when i see his diamond teeth and then i remember he is kind of an idiot again.
Last Edit: Dec 28, 2010 0:52:55 GMT -5 by EAP - Back to Top