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I'm so annoyed the truth is the whole framing of this debate is quietly: upper middle class and rich people should not pay more taxes, will not pay more taxes, us Democrats are too corrupt to even think about changing taxation in this nation.
They just don't want to pay taxes - or say that ANYONE will ever pay more taxes.
Post by SupeЯfuЯЯyanimal on Jan 14, 2020 23:24:26 GMT -5
Check out this body language.
It again should be mentioned how there are never question about how we pay for war. Just for social policy. Strange.
I thought this debate sucked donkey balls. Started off okay but the questions sucked. One of the moderators kept interrupting everybody. But to be fair I zoned out a lot. I really don't give a shit what most of them have to say at this point.
Post by Tainted Opossum on Jan 14, 2020 23:25:51 GMT -5
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go on an overnight drunk, and in 10 days I'm going to set out to find the shark that ate my friend and destroy it. Anyone who wants to join me is more than welcome.
Post by SupeЯfuЯЯyanimal on Jan 15, 2020 0:57:05 GMT -5
We live in hell.
Putting aside what they are trying to imply as a basis. Bernie was actually arguing a woman could be president. So I guess it wasn't a debate because they both agreed??
Pretty cool that CNN presented Bernie as a liar... seconds after he told his side of the story.
This infuriated me.
Moderator: Did you say a woman couldn't be president? Bernie: No I did not, etc etc Moderator: Senator Warren, how did you react when Bernie said a woman couldn't be president?
Not the only time I yelled at the TV last night. The other two times were A) Klobuchar's awful proposals for health care that don't change anything, and B) when I noticed Buttigieg's bushy pokey eyebrow hairs. Gross.
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It again should be mentioned how there are never question about how we pay for war. Just for social policy. Strange.
I thought this debate sucked donkey balls. Started off okay but the questions sucked. One of the moderators kept interrupting everybody. But to be fair I zoned out a lot. I really don't give a shit what most of them have to say at this point.
She refused to shake his hand. WTF. I refused to watch the debate. After watching the first one, I lost my appetite. We are fucked, plain and simple.
I can't even engage with a lot of people I know who are Democrats right now.
The fact that logical theory is being over taken by emotional displays of personal belief (i.e. the Bernie Bros assistance; a talking point rolled out during the HRC campaign and then used by mostly R's and pundits.) The highest percentage of vocal Bernie supporters on every social media platform I'm on, are women, and that seems to be an impossible thing to break through to anyone who is hardcore for Warren. And then on the otherside of the coin, it's ok to AGREE THAT MISOGYNY still exists - just like it was ok (and imo, RIGHT) to indicate RACISM is/was relevant in 2008.
People are mistaking their personal affiliations to candidates with facts, and even worse the reality that people are imperfect and thus both their words, memories, and events not-cataloged are subject to perception creep. Warren could fundamentally believe that was the tenor of the discussion; Sanders could have said the issues electing a woman to office are real in a way that was displeasing to her. All these things can be real at the same time; but during a goddamn PRIMARY, it's much easier to throw each as far into the "they are lying" field. It's ridiculous and everyone's getting played, and worked up over a conversation that should have stayed in a closed meeting UNLESS Warren wanted to say something to the effect that Sanders told her SHE could not be President. Which DOES NOT ALIGN with him wanting Warren to run in 2016 before deciding to run (a follow up question that was never asked in this shit debate).
The intellectual inconsistencies aligning with people's hero worship is astounding.
Maybe it's good Obama was a disappointment, because as a Sanders supporter, I can still see both sides of the argument and make a logical assertion of what I believe; but not what's absolute truth. I don't see any of these characters as purely altruistic or idols of politics -- and people are getting personally emotional and possibly over-invested. Which is driving the narrative into a spiral that only serves the moderate candidates.
That's the hope I've been trying to get across. He' got the most money. The most dedicated volunteer base (right at 2.5 million calls made this month. They are trying to knock half a million doors in Iowa). I don't think anyone else is even close. He's got the youth vote. Does extremely well with independents. Does well in counties that switched from Obama to Trump in 2016. A majority of progressive groups that have endorsed have endorsed Sanders. Including some groups with pretty huge ground game operations. Jaz and LD talked about the early states last night and it goes like this. If Bernie wins three out of Iowa, NH, Nevada and South Carolina the electorate shifts. He will shake the narrative that Biden is the most electable. This is where his legion of volunteers and progressive groups really start making this a race.
The momentum argument holds for anyone but it's still going to be difficult delegate wise because of the south. Even more difficult after the last couple days. Although this doesn't seem to be hitting him as hard as the establishment had hoped. As per usual some of the Bernie people are making things harder on themselves by acting like wildasses online.
And people can get mad all they want but this is true. Warren is almost certainly done. She might have taken Bernie down with her but she can't coalesce the progressive vote now. I won't even consider voting for her, for one. Unless she pulls massive numbers from Pete(not impossible) and Biden(very much less likely) she won't be able to form the numbers to win the primary. Unless Biden just completely shits the bed somehow or Pete somehow surges and splits Biden's lead more.
It again should be mentioned how there are never question about how we pay for war. Just for social policy. Strange.
I thought this debate sucked donkey balls. Started off okay but the questions sucked. One of the moderators kept interrupting everybody. But to be fair I zoned out a lot. I really don't give a shit what most of them have to say at this point.
She refused to shake his hand. WTF. I refused to watch the debate. After watching the first one, I lost my appetite. We are fucked, plain and simple.
It was pretty bad all around.
We are almost certainly fucked but there is still some hope. All I can say is the progressives have to beat Biden in the early states and get momentum. If we don't, then all hope is lost. If you think Warren can somehow pull things off without a large chunk of potential progressive support than obviously work toward that goal.
It won't be shocking that I'm going to argue for Bernie. This is literally do or die time. If you want to beat Biden and keep him from losing to Trump.... donate and volunteer for Bernie. Make calls to early states. Go to a local organizing event. Send texts. Download the Bern App and start organizing those around you to show up to the polls. It's not impossible but the media and the establishment aren't going to help. The DNC isn't going to help. We have to do it ourselves and we can if we do the work.
I don't think it's all that hyperbolic to say this is maybe the most important point in our lifetimes to take political action and fight for what we believe in.
Besides the obvious danger of the Libs fucking us and possible sticking us with Biden it's sad because of all the lost potential. The Dems had a chance to reinvent themselves and engage young voters. Maybe the best chance ever to build an energetic young wing of the party. People they need for the party to have a bright, successful future. The establishment would rather hang on to their power than do anything logical. The iron law of institutions.
So what actually is the future for the party if they refuse to upon the doors for the left and all the lost youth energy something like the GND brings to the table? Fighting for fucking table scraps so some corporate dimwit like Biden can get in there? Who wants to fight tooth and nail for this shit? It's easy to see why people say "fuck it" and don't show up.
Besides the obvious danger of the Libs fucking us and possible sticking us with Biden it's sad because of all the lost potential. The Dems had a chance to reinvent themselves and engage young voters. Maybe the best chance ever to build an energetic young wing of the party. People they need for the party to have a bright, successful future. The establishment would rather hang on to their power than do anything logical. The iron law of institutions.
So what actually is the future for the party if they refuse to upon the doors for the left and all the lost youth energy something like the GND brings to the table? Fighting for fucking table scraps so some corporate dimwit like Biden can get in there? Who wants to fight tooth and nail for this shit? It's easy to see why people say "fuck it" and don't show up.
I think if Bernie loses the nomination, especially if Trump then wins re-election, we have to start moving seriously to a new left party or stronger independent voter block. Or we just keep trying to primary people out one by one. I just don't see how the DNC system remains tenable for much longer. But I've had the same thoughts about the GOP and they've managed to hold it together
Besides the obvious danger of the Libs fucking us and possible sticking us with Biden it's sad because of all the lost potential. The Dems had a chance to reinvent themselves and engage young voters. Maybe the best chance ever to build an energetic young wing of the party. People they need for the party to have a bright, successful future. The establishment would rather hang on to their power than do anything logical. The iron law of institutions.
So what actually is the future for the party if they refuse to upon the doors for the left and all the lost youth energy something like the GND brings to the table? Fighting for fucking table scraps so some corporate dimwit like Biden can get in there? Who wants to fight tooth and nail for this shit? It's easy to see why people say "fuck it" and don't show up.
I think if Bernie loses the nomination, especially if Trump then wins re-election, we have to start moving seriously to a new left party or stronger independent voter block. Or we just keep trying to primary people out one by one. I just don't see how the DNC system remains tenable for much longer. But I've had the same thoughts about the GOP and they've managed to hold it together
White supremecy is a strong bond. The DNC doesn't have anything that strong that holds it together.
Besides the obvious danger of the Libs fucking us and possible sticking us with Biden it's sad because of all the lost potential. The Dems had a chance to reinvent themselves and engage young voters. Maybe the best chance ever to build an energetic young wing of the party. People they need for the party to have a bright, successful future. The establishment would rather hang on to their power than do anything logical. The iron law of institutions.
So what actually is the future for the party if they refuse to upon the doors for the left and all the lost youth energy something like the GND brings to the table? Fighting for fucking table scraps so some corporate dimwit like Biden can get in there? Who wants to fight tooth and nail for this shit? It's easy to see why people say "fuck it" and don't show up.
I think if Bernie loses the nomination, especially if Trump then wins re-election, we have to start moving seriously to a new left party or stronger independent voter block. Or we just keep trying to primary people out one by one. I just don't see how the DNC system remains tenable for much longer. But I've had the same thoughts about the GOP and they've managed to hold it together
It really sucks because we are at the mercy of this shitty two-party system. The GOP is such a massive threat to everything that people fear splitting the vote. It's a valid fear. Which makes it extremely hard to build a 3rd party outside of major cities with stronger leftist traditions. I feel like we've talked about this a little before I've always thought the way to start doing that is focus on local races in places like NYC and Chicago. Build from there and show it's possible to win. Sorta like what the DSA is already doing within the Democrats in Chicago.
But I agree. Something has got to give. The DNC is failing us and more people have got to wake up to this fact. If the Dems continue losing/alienating the working class what the hell are we suppose to do? We can't rely on a left wing party that caters to rich suburbanites and the PWC. It's not applicable to progressive policy and without progressive policy we don't ward off climate change and we don't stop doomed to fail economic model. We likely never close the wealth gap for people of color or deal with mass incarceration. On and on and on.
The only other alternative is start building people power through organizing and using outside game to try and force change but Americans are so lazy and/or uninterested that I don't see us building a large enough powerbase to have an impact in a timely manner. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't organize, we should. But it seems for the time being we are likely stuck in this two-party hell. Hopefully what people like Bernie and AOC have began will be the beginning of a transition.