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Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 19, 2008 11:19:25 GMT -5
i wasn't trying to argue at all. i just thought it would be nice to have a DISCUSSION with people who i believe to be intelligent enough to HAVE a discussion without it turning nasty.
i wasn't trying to argue at all. i just thought it would be nice to have a DISCUSSION with people who i believe to be intelligent enough to HAVE a discussion without it turning nasty.
oh well
Would be nice to talk rationally and dispassionately about the war and occupation but we've done this too many times for me to believe it won't devolve into an argument. People, justifiably, have strong feeling about this subject.
But I never learn and alway seem to be the one that brings up this messy subject. Wish I could say I won't do it again but my passions get the better of me also at times.
Post by suspendedzen on Mar 19, 2008 11:25:47 GMT -5
Of course, this Administration would have failed to learn the lessons of Vietnam. Having avoided service there so strenuously (though they waved the flag from afar) they wouldnt have ever learned ANYTHING from it. That's the biggest tragedy here, that a second generation had to repeat the mistakes of its fathers simply because our leadership had no idea what the concept and the actualities of war are.
Post by Christopher Shawn on Mar 19, 2008 11:26:55 GMT -5
Ive had this discussion a million times online and in life and Ive never come to understand any sort of justification for us staying there as long as we have been. Id like someone to really explain to me why they think its right. Just once!
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 11:41:13 GMT -5
That's because no one will admit the underhanded goal of securing a SAFE passage of oil from the Caspian Sea region of the western Soviet bloc through the Persian Gulf. Dually, Iran sits on a wealth of oil and is politically and religiously seen as an enemy to the US.
There is no doubt on the timing of this war. Why else have we developed such a concern for Afghanistan and Iraq now all of a sudden ?
And if you doubt this, read some PNAC thinktank strategy for having a huge base in the area(can't count on the Saudi's anymore) in the greenzone in Iraq.
Add in the move by Bush to make federal contracts non competitive so you can usher in favored private contractors that directly benefit the administration--and I don't think there will be any question as to why we are still there. The oil boys of this country are as rich as they've ever been. Why would true patriotism and compassion get in the way of such enterprise ?
Try traveling anywhere in the world and NOT having a response to those questions. You WILL feel like you've been watching tooooo much IDOL AND CNN !
Post by Christopher Shawn on Mar 19, 2008 11:44:56 GMT -5
Thats a solid justification, the only one that makes sense. Now the fact that Saddam has been slaughtering people, or Al Queda is being harbored, they hate our freedom, those I dont buy.
Dems seize on McCain's Iran gaffe Posted: 10:19 AM ET
McCain misspoke during a press conference in Jordan Tuesday. (CNN) – The Democratic National Committee seized on John McCain's apparent gaffe while discussing Iran Tuesday, saying it raises questions whether the Arizona senator "can be trusted to offer a clear way forward."
The misstep in question occurred during a news conference in Jordan earlier Tuesday, when the presumptive Republican presidential nominee repeatedly said Iran was supplying al Qaeda. Iran is predominately a Shiite country and is not aiding the Sunni dominated Al-Qaeda.
McCain ultimately corrected himself after Sen. Joe Lieberman whispered in his ear.
"I'm sorry, the Iranians are training extremists, not al Qaeda. I am sorry," the Arizona senator said.
DNC spokeswoman Karen Finney quickly pounced on the misstep.
"After eight years of the Bush Administration's incompetence in Iraq, McCain's comments don't give the American people a reason to believe that he can be trusted to offer a clear way forward," she said. "Not only is Senator McCain wrong on Iraq once again, but he showed he either doesn't understand the challenges facing Iraq and the region or is willing to ignore the facts on the ground."
McCain's campaign immediately responded, saying the "Democrats have launched political attacks today because they know the American people have deep concerns about their candidates’ judgment and readiness to lead as commander in chief.”
The DNC later sent out a transcript of McCain's interview Monday with conservative Hugh Hewitt, during which he appeared to make the same mistake.
"As you know, there are al Qaeda operatives that are taken back into Iran, given training as leaders, and they’re moving back into Iraq," he told Hewitt.
Related: McCain warns of increasing Iranian influence
Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 19, 2008 11:51:02 GMT -5
squid said:
Thats a solid justification, the only one that makes sense. Now the fact that Saddam has been slaughtering people, or Al Queda is being harbored, they hate our freedom, those I dont buy.
Oil...I buy that. Ill have seconds.
um, taking out someone who WAS slaughtering people(women, children...all of them) would be a good justification for staying.
now that he's gone...i have a problem with us being there.
the thing is, i'm tired of people arguing about why we went in. really tired of it. what will it accomplish? in the end, we're still going to be where we are, so why don't we start focusing on how to get us out instead of complaining we're there in the first place.
It is eerily conspiratorial how the PNAC's plans and goals have fallen into place. From a "Pearl Harbor type attack" which they claimed we needed to motivate the American people to invasion anddcorporate control of Iraq. The only thing in their plan that hasn't happened (besided the blooming of democracy in the Middle East) is the invasion and overthrow of Iran. Let's hope they don't push that through also.
Did you notice that the PNAC changed there website a few months ago to remove all references to being "neo-cons" and the promoting the US militarily forcing democracy on the rest of the world? Wish I could believe it was due to a change in philosophy and not just because it's politically expedient.
Post by Christopher Shawn on Mar 19, 2008 11:54:30 GMT -5
Sorry, my context was jacked up. Hes been slaughtering people for decades and it took till Sept 11th for action to happen. I dont buy thats why we went in there is what I meant.
Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 19, 2008 11:56:34 GMT -5
squid said:
Sorry, my context was jacked up. Hes been slaughtering people for decades and it took till Sept 11th for action to happen. I dont buy thats why we went in there is what I meant.
fair enough
which is definitely one of my problems. ok, we went to afghanistan because of the attacks...justified. but iraq? not so much.
however, as i said in my previous post, its fruitless to try and argue something that won't be changed in the end, when we could be trying to come up with a solution to get us the heck outta there.
Thats a solid justification, the only one that makes sense. Now the fact that Saddam has been slaughtering people, or Al Queda is being harbored, they hate our freedom, those I dont buy.
Oil...I buy that. Ill have seconds.
um, taking out someone who WAS slaughtering people(women, children...all of them) would be a good justification for staying.
now that he's gone...i have a problem with us being there.
the thing is, i'm tired of people arguing about why we went in. really tired of it. what will it accomplish? in the end, we're still going to be where we are, so why don't we start focusing on how to get us out instead of complaining we're there in the first place.
I agree our first priority has to be how to get out. But we MUST learn from the mistakes going in or we are doomed to repeat them. The American people have been sold on the facts that wars are easy, being against war is unpatriotic, examining the consequences of war is a distraction.
We also sat aside while the government fired any and all advisors who came forward with anything the contradicted their preconceived ideas. Even firing numerous genrals on the eve of war and demoting terrorist experts and official who had been in charge of planning this war for decades.
We cannot allow that to happen again. We MUST learn from our mistakes and demand more from our leaders and the press and ourselves or our children will die learning these lessons again.
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 12:01:21 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 12:02:33 GMT -5
"Pigs (Three Different Ones)"
Big man, pig man, ha ha, charade you are You well heeled big wheel, ha ha, charade you are And when your hand is on your heart You're nearly a good laugh Almost a joker With your head down in the pig bin Saying "keep on digging" Pig stain on your fat chin What do you hope to find? When you're down in the pig mine You're nearly a laugh You're nearly a laugh But you're really a cry. Bus stop rat bag, ha ha, charade you are You fucked up old hag, ha ha, charade you are You radiate cold shafts of broken glass You're nearly a good laugh Almost worth a quick grin You like the feel of steel You're hot stuff with a hat pin And good fun with a hand gun You're nearly a laugh You're nearly a laugh But you're really a cry. Hey you Whitehouse, ha ha, charade you are You house proud town mouse, ha ha, charade you are You're trying to keep our feelings off the street You're nearly a real treat All tight lips and cold feet And do you feel abused? .....!.....!.....!.....! You gotta stem the evil tide And keep it all on the inside Mary you're nearly a treat Mary you're nearly a treat But you're really a cry.
Hippie said:
um, taking out someone who WAS slaughtering people(women, children...all of them) would be a good justification for staying. now that he's gone...i have a problem with us being there.
the thing is, i'm tired of people arguing about why we went in. really tired of it. what will it accomplish? in the end, we're still going to be where we are, so why don't we start focusing on how to get us out instead of complaining we're there in the first place.
It's important because they are trying to do it again in Iran. If we don't study(and debunk,these days) history, then we are doomed to repeat it.
We are the ones who propped up Sadaam Hussein in the first place. It's arguably part of how we won the cold war. And the winning of the cold war, so to speak, put the Soviets in a position to decentralize gov't and sell resources like oil. This insures the strength of Moscow, and the weakness of the "territories" . War has done the same for communism as it has for capitalism--Ensure power to the few to the detriment of the masses. Amazing how the Orange Revolution and poisoning of Yurishenko? in Kazakastan is mirrored in all of this as well.
And as always, it blows my mind how the "reason" for invading Iraq in the first place is nothing more than a fleeting thought in today's discussions of the war.
If you guys remember, Iraq posed a clear and immediate threat to the security of the US based on its "STOCKPILES" of weapons of mass destruction.
THAT WAS THE SINGLE REASON GIVEN FOR INVADING IRAQ!!!!!!!!!
Karma to the first person who can tell me how many times that "reason" has changed in the last five years....
Seems like it's all been said. I just ask everyone to examine their views, the costs, the benefits and how to do it better next time. Sad to say there will be a next time.
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 12:08:20 GMT -5
Hippie,
Therein lies the problem. I am not arguing. You are not the enemy. And FORGET is what we do as a nation for the sake of our own comfort.
As long as someone stands to get stoopid rich, there will be an argument. And there is nothing wrong with that. That is a check AND a balance-speaking truth to power. The media blitzes us with this need to be so amicable that we keep on keeping on, instead of questioning how and why. AND MAKING REAL CHANGE
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 12:09:38 GMT -5 by koyaanisqatsi - Back to Top
Post by suspendedzen on Mar 19, 2008 12:10:34 GMT -5
dmbfanintn said:
And as always, it blows my mind how the "reason" for invading Iraq in the first place is nothing more than a fleeting thought in today's discussions of the war.
If you guys remember, Iraq posed a clear and immediate threat to the security of the US based on its "STOCKPILES" of weapons of mass destruction.
THAT WAS THE SINGLE REASON GIVEN FOR INVADING IRAQ!!!!!!!!!
Karma to the first person who can tell me how many times that "reason" has changed in the last five years....
Now they just go with the truth, that it was the huge-govt (biggest in history) idea of nation-building, coerced democracy, as it were. Without a doubt, the stupidest foreign policy any country can ever follow through on. Nation-building is, historically, a guranteed failure after an incredible expense.
That they combined this with the disastrous military folly of 'limited warfare' (another idea that has never and will never work) only compounds this tragedy.
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 12:21:16 GMT -5
hippienaustin said:
I wasn't trying to imply that YOU personally were arguing. my point was stated in more general terms.
Right on.
I'm overly sensitive about the cries in the media, within the democratic party, and everywhere to "play nice" and "not argue" or "be contentious". The statistics listed by Troo alone are enough to justify contention. Much of the time, people like Moby show up, throw out a Limbaugh talking point and run, leaving confusion because of the misinformation that he lobbed. The press, the establishment, the rich, the oldboy network, etc.-anybody who really stands to lose what they have gotten unrighteously are the ones who want people to play nice and not be pissed off. And there are many mockingbirds who repeat the mantra for the sake of "harmony". I looooove harmony, don't get me wrong. But if you're not pissed off right now, you're just not paying attention.
More stands to be lost in our silence. And there are plenty without a voice.
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 12:23:47 GMT -5 by koyaanisqatsi - Back to Top
Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 19, 2008 12:24:21 GMT -5
More stands to be lost in our silence. And there are plenty without a voice.
exactly. so why is the middle east the only one who's cries are being answered? there are plenty of starving children in our own country, plenty of injustices and terrorism being done in africa, but in the middle east we stay.
you can't have a war against a concept. there will never be an end.
