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Well I guess we had a chance for someone to post an opinion that was adverse to the majority of the board. But I guess they couldnt find anything worth posting to back up their views. Its annoying because its usually the ribbon bumper sticker toating, flag wavers that run rampant with half facts and falsehoods that spout them rabidly until theyre pinned into an actual conversation. It gets old and its this kind of thought that prevents conversation and prevent opinions that may be wrong from moving into the hypothetical right direction.
Ok - here is an opinion adverse to the rest of the board - just for you - so you can start smiting me again if you want (and by that I don't necessarily mean you specifically - unless you have something to feel guilty about) I know I am liked around here regardless of the fact that I am a "Rethuglican"
I agree with Troo and the majority of you - this war has come at a high cost financially. What I have issues with is the media exploiting the number of casualties in the five years we have been in Iraq. The fact is - we have lost the same or more during periods of peacetime then we have during this war - and should we even mention Vietnam or Korea or WW II
Let's see - let's start with
WWII 1941-1946
Number serving in U.S. Military: 16,112,566
Total Deaths: 405,399
Battle Deaths: 291,557
Wounds Not Mortal: 671,846 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Korea 1950-1953 (should we have been involved in this one?)
Number serving in U.S. Military: 5,720,000
Total Deaths: 36,574
Battle Deaths: 33,741
Wounds Not Mortal: 103,284
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vietnam 1964-1973 (should we have been involved in this one?)
so - if these figures are anywhere near accurate (which I cannot be sure of)
We have not lost any more military members then we normally would have during past peacetimes
and the costs of this war are still below the cost of Vietnam (another war we had no business being involved in)
While I support my military wholeheartedly (I am a military brat after all) We should never have started all this - but now that we are there - I feel like we do need to finish it. Am I pissed that Bush used 9/11 as an excuse to finish what his father screwed up (Hussein) yup - am I pissed that the supposed mastermind behind 9/11 (Osama) is still on the loose - yup
But we need to finish what we started and then we need to find out own alternative sources of fuel - pull out of the UN tell everyone that votes against us on a regular, contant and ocntinual basis in the UN to suck it up and fine their own aid from soem one else and put that money into fixing the problems that we have here at home in the United States.
I am sick of us spending money for every third world country and their starving disease ridden children. Sorry if that sounds harsh - but we have starving children here at home - we have a welfare system that sucks and rewards the lazy - a healthcare system that is out of control - Social Security is a joke - China is trying the kill our children with lead - Mexico is taking all our jobs but then sending all their people here - illegally - to reap the rewards of our screwed up government - and it is screwed up - not by just the Republicans but by the Democrats also - everyone is to blame at some point in history.
ok - there is my opinion on all of this - and now - like Moby - I will prolly bow out of this thread.
Love to all - thanks for encouraging me to post my opinions.
Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 19, 2008 12:32:09 GMT -5
As far as numbers go with war and casualties, you can't just look at numbers. Wars and the way we fight them have changed drastically every time, and most certainly up to now. While the numbers are lower, that doesn't mean that comparatively they aren't still BAD.
as for the problems at home...i am in total agreeance. we have enough problems here to last us multiple lifetimes. admittedly, though, my bleeding heart lies in uganda. its just a cause that i feel called towards.
"Wow, Meg! You need to post on these things more. You make good, coherent arguments."
Karma for speaking your peace. I am from a military family [Granfather WW1, Father WW2, Myself and 5 bros all in Army (Vietnam, Gulf War), wife's brother in Marines (Iraq)] so I sympathize, if not agree, with your views.
As promised I will not begin posting thought and refutes. Just here to say "You go ,girl"
Post by GratefulHippie on Mar 19, 2008 12:38:50 GMT -5
i think in the end we can ALL agree that its a sad situation all around. i can't say that i have a SOLUTION. i mean, i have my ideas and opinions, but it way more complex than just staying or going...i realize that.
Other than listing the numbers, you havent said anything that hasnt already been said.
You disagree with the war, we need to get out of there, but not before its finished...blah, blah, blah.
You let me down I was expecting you to post some pro-bush stuff, or some we were right and we are still right about the war stuff.....Dang, now I have nothing to bash you on....
Your still a rethuglican though....
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 12:46:09 GMT -5 by Deleted - Back to Top
"Wow, Meg! You need to post on these things more. You make good, coherent arguments."
Karma for speaking your peace. I am from a military family [Granfather WW1, Father WW2, Myself and 5 bros all in Army (Vietnam, Gulf War), wife's brother in Marines (Iraq)] so I sympathize, if not agree, with your views.
As promised I will not begin posting thought and refutes. Just here to say "You go ,girl"
awww shucks.........I am just a stubborn opinionated red-head. - did I mention opinionated??? I just like to have facts to back up my arguements and the majority of the time - I don't have the time to look up the facts and figures for my argument
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 12:49:19 GMT -5
bos1969 said:
squid said:
I am sick of us spending money for every third world country and their starving disease ridden children. Sorry if that sounds harsh - but we have starving children here at home - we have a welfare system that sucks and rewards the lazy - a healthcare system that is out of control - Social Security is a joke - China is trying the kill our children with lead - Mexico is taking all our jobs but then sending all their people here - illegally - to reap the rewards of our screwed up government - and it is screwed up - not by just the Republicans but by the Democrats also - everyone is to blame at some point in history.
ok - there is my opinion on all of this - and now - like Moby - I will prolly bow out of this thread.
Love to all - thanks for encouraging me to post my opinions.
Problem is we are in all of those places taking resources AND we are the richest nation in the world. We have plenty to give, to our own AND others. Profit is in distribution and it's control.
Had we not fleeced the middle class of this country to spend billions in Iraq, we could have already afforded sustainable energy for centuries. But then no one could charge us and increase their own standing. It was a hell of an endeavor to get this country to go into a pre-emptive war. You better believe their are interests on both sides stuffing their pockets, laughing while tools repeat their talking points...
We've got warehouses of butter, and oceans of wine. We've got famine when we need it. We've got designer crime. It's a miracle. Roger Waters, from Amused to Death
Other than listing the numbers, you havent said anything that hasnt already been said.
You disagree with the war, we need to get out of there, but not before its finished...blah, blah, blah.
You let me down I was expecting you to post some pro-bush stuff, or some we were right and we are still right about the war stuff.....Dang, now I have nothing to bash you on....
Your still a rethuglican though....
Chris - keep in mind - I am an anomaly - a very liberal Republican. I am actually more independant then anything (shhh - don't tell my mother - she would have a heart attack )
I don't necessarily think that Bush has been a bad president - but I don't think he has been a good one either. Like I said before - we are all human and we all make mistakes - his have just been some hellacious mistakes that happened to affect the whole country and get lots of play in the media
Other than listing the numbers, you havent said anything that hasnt already been said.
You disagree with the war, we need to get out of there, but not before its finished...blah, blah, blah.
You let me down I was expecting you to post some pro-bush stuff, or some we were right and we are still right about the war stuff.....Dang, now I have nothing to bash you on....
Your still a rethuglican though....
Chris - keep in mind - I am an anomaly - a very liberal Republican. I am actually more independant then anything (shhh - don't tell my mother - she would have a heart attack )
I don't necessarily think that Bush has been a bad president - but I don't think he has been a good one either. Like I said before - we are all human and we all make mistakes - his have just been some hellacious mistakes that happened to affect the whole country and get lots of play in the media
Surely you can admit that alot of his "mistakes" sure seemed to pump his pocketbook and the pocketbooks of his cronies???
I have a hard time differentiating between Bush's mistakes and desicions that were made intentionally for personal gain.
I have a hard time believe that bush does ANYTHING with the best intrests of America in mind, and I have a hard time believing that there are still human beings left in this country, that have ears and a brain, that believe ANYTHING that he says....
Do you really think the man tells the Am public the truth?
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 13:02:22 GMT -5
Just watch how the media frames this poor guy into telling America how he really feels about them.
Also notice the post nasal coke drip they must have airbrushed under his left nostril, looking to the sidelines as if to say, "Daddy, do ya love me now".
Do you really think the man tells the Am public the truth?
who does tell us the real truth anymore?
I gotta agree with Hippie
but to answer your question - nope - I don't think he tells the truth - but then again - I don't think ANY politician tells the truth.
And, especially in a campaign year, i think the presidential hopefuls will say and do anything to get the American public to belive them and then once they have been elected - they will do what they want to do regardless of the campaign promised that they made.
You can tell when someone's telling the truth when it hurts them personally, financially or professionally to do so and they do it anyway.
Take for example the military, scientific and bureaucratic personel who have had their careers and reputations effectively destroyed for speaking out. I trust that they believe what they're saying, whether I agree or not. (This goes for every administration)
Y'all should have known I couldn't stay away, especially w/ Meg in the mix.
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 13:09:01 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
You can tell when someone's telling the truth when it hurts them personally, financially or professionally to do so and they do it anyway.
Take for example the military, scientific and bureaucratic personel who have had their careers and reputations effectively destroyed for speaking out. I trust that they believe what they're saying, whether I agree or not. (This goes for every administration)
Y'all should have known I couldn't stay away, especially w/ Meg in the mix.
yeah yeah - blame it on me - the Rethuglican always gets the blame
But I do see what you are saying - when they come out, speak their opinions and what they perceive as the truth regardless if it hurts them professionally, personally or financially - it is a pretty sure bet that they are telling the turht as they see it. (how is that for waffling on an answer - maybe I should become a politician)
Thanks. I think most of us who are still here fit that category.
As far as truth telling goes, we (or at least most of us) have been taught today that we belong to one side or the other. We therefore see what "our" sides believes and look for ammunition to support our position instead of approaching issues with an open mind and making an informed decision.
Crossfire type shows are a perfect example of how we get information. The premise is that there are 2 (and only 2) valid sides and both are equally valid. We pick our side an collect ammunition to "bomb " the other. You see this in the way the same "talking point" arguments are used over and over.
We should always look to see how a person will personally gain by there positions and opinions and weigh that into the validity of their arguments. Most poeple will argue anything if it helps them financially or professionally. We need to become skeptics, not only of the other side, but especially of our own side.
Or best yet don't have a side and question everything.
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 13:20:12 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
Y'all want to see some wackos and kool-aid drinkers. Go to Yahoo Answers politics section. What a place to spew ignorant rhetoric. It would be funny if most of the people weren't serious. As it is, it's pretty scary.
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 13:35:57 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 13:29:24 GMT -5
troo said:
Y'all want to see some wackos and kool-aid drinkers. Go to Yahoo Answers politics section. What a place to spew ignorant rhetoric. It would be funny if most of the people weren't serious. As it is, it's pretty scary.
Not saying I'm not whacked at times.... just saying ^^^THAT"S^^^ why I'm HERE ;D !
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 13:37:23 GMT -5
Nope-I think I must have been born with these passions. Or was just lucky enough to grow up in an old steel town. These issues(one way or another) have been boiling over in my hometown for 30 years or more. But they were pretty much bought and sold on Hillary as what was prescribed for them by the union oldboyz.
That's where learning to question EVERYTHING takes over. Not dissing the union, just encouraging them to evolve !
One can learn a thing or two from the original Maverick Jailbird. 17th district Y-town Jimbo Trafficant(e) represent !!!! ;D
Last Edit: Mar 19, 2008 13:39:27 GMT -5 by koyaanisqatsi - Back to Top
Post by koyaanisqatsi on Mar 19, 2008 14:14:59 GMT -5
I don't think so. Meg is generally over concerned with her karma and empowers smiters with said concern.
Unless you ARE someone who stalks her and smites to drive her crazy, I'd chalk it up to her fixation and the board's setup which doesn't demand an explanation for a smite.
Post by Christopher Shawn on Mar 19, 2008 14:16:18 GMT -5
koyaanisqatsi said:
I don't think so. Meg is generally over concerned with her karma and empowers smiters with said concern.
Unless you ARE someone who stalks her and smites to drive her crazy, I'd chalk it up to her fixation and the board's setup which doesn't demand an explanation for a smite.