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Post by stallion pt. 2 on Oct 29, 2007 17:55:28 GMT -5
alyroo said:
snoochie2 said:
I'm with ya to a degree. when it comes down to national politics, though, we really have NO choice. Any candidate will have his/her hand in the cookie jar or will be unable to defend smear campaigns that call them unelectable or whatnot.
not true... the good ones are ignored by the press... screw the press... go investigate the candidates... just because the only ones they talk about are Hill and Obama or Rudy and McCain doesn't mean that those are the only ones talking...
may I suggest reading up on Joe Biden. He is nobody's shill... and I think Edwards genuinely cares.
There are good people in politics, not perfect, but good... not many... but a few
Don't forget Kucinich. He's the only populist democrat running at the moment, and though he's constantly edged out of debates and coverage he is consistantly with a majority of Americans on almost every issue. in other words, he's totally unelectable.
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
I am advocating and practicing off the grid economics, accountability, and sacrifice, and you think that's lazy ?
I don't think that's lazy but if you've commited to not participating it's human nature to ignore it. How would you know if a candidate surfaced that you COULD support? Maybe they are already running
Biden voted to reauthorize the patriot act. I believe he also voted to give Bush unrestrained war powers upon our entry into Desert Storm 2. Give me a day or two and I'll document these and other reasons I believe there is little difference. I have to follow what they voted upon and not what they promise.
I'll vote Kucinich in the primary if only to hope to sway the platform of the nominated candidate but I certainly won't be holding my breath.
I am advocating and practicing off the grid economics, accountability, and sacrifice, and you think that's lazy ?
I don't think that's lazy but if you've commited to not participating it's human nature to ignore it. How would you know if a candidate surfaced that you COULD support? Maybe they are already running
Political Science graduate of 1993. Just cuz i'm not voting for a nominated candidate of the 2 major parties, doesn't mean I'm not reading, campaigning, or being politically active. I'm saying that there are ways to change the system without propping it up. I have long been a Kucinich supporter. I have many friends in his district and he represents them well. He is the only one doing and not just saying. See how far that gets him.
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
It's all good snoochie.. i realized i was opening a can of worms
I feel that being a loud mouthed liberal, I can be more of a change within the system. Not voting as a protest is admirable but I'm afraid it's futile.
If more people paid attention I don't think these jokers would ever get anywhere. It starts local... If the people of TX would've seen the bullsh*t yeeeears ago this country wouldn't be where it is now. They voted but they voted for a name not the doofus.
An EDUCATED vote is what makes a difference. Learn as much as you can about the screwed up system and then keep your eyes OPEN.
Well put.
Direct action, protest, writing your representatives, supporting third-party candidates (or heaven forbid running yourself), becoming the media...All these are essential to a well-functioning and truely representative democracy.
However, "protesting" by not voting is no protest. If you are not participating in the most basic excercise of democracy, you are telling the powers that be that you don't care. If you don't vote, you are abdicating your democratic obligation to others, basically saying they should make decisions for you. There are good, populist candidates out there, some even in major parties. Please support them, and vote for them if you can. And if the ballot totally makes you nauseus no matter who's there, than press for a vote of "no confidence" or "none of the above" to be on every ballot in America. But don't be lazy and call it a "protest." That's lame.
Plus-I'm talking about energizing a movement, not following a path of little resistance or slacking. We've been "allowed" to vote for years. I'm talking about the streets, not the polls. Many of the incarcerated share my political affiliation but are barred from expressing it, for instance-forever. If we are such a free nation, why do we so fear the vote of the formerly incarcerated.
I am from Ohio. I watched the Supreme court throw out my vote. I watched working people walk away from purposely overcrowed polling places at the risk of being fired from their jobs after waiting for hours in the rain.
We are too far beyond acting like stepping in line makes a difference. Time to get out of line.
Joe Biden- - voted with Repubs on every war issue except surge and has made an issue out of "separating" himself by this alone from the chickenhawks -wrote the legislation that created the position of "drug czar" and has been influential in tougher mdma legislation -voted for both the original Patriot Act and it's recent re-authorization. just a quick search that didn't even get into campaign contributors(though it did look like the top ten for his 06 campaign were mostly trial lawyers-go figure).
Post by stallion pt. 2 on Oct 29, 2007 23:52:30 GMT -5
snoochie2 said:
Joe Biden- - voted with Repubs on every war issue except surge and has made an issue out of "separating" himself by this alone from the chickenhawks -wrote the legislation that created the position of "drug czar" and has been influential in tougher mdma legislation -voted for both the original Patriot Act and it's recent re-authorization. just a quick search that didn't even get into campaign contributors(though it did look like the top ten for his 06 campaign were mostly trial lawyers-go figure).
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
You're already more knowlegable than 90% of the voters. It would be a shame if you didn't vote.
That may be the reason that I feel that voting is not the way. When the settlers felt like they were taxed without representation, England would have LOVED for them to use the "system" to change the system. But that wasn't gonna work. For years, the Neocons have worked aboved the idea of one man(sic)-one vote.
Like I have stated, I will vote for local candidates in local elections, especially judges. I will continue to campaign for third parties. I will use my time during the National Election to drive from polling place to polling place videotaping and interviewing. I will most probably vote for Dennis Kucinich in the primary in order to try to sway the democratic platform back to the left of center. But I will not cast a vote for more of the same from either party just to feel like I did my doody(duty).
Instead, I will use my energies(fantasies) to work toward a national holiday for election day so that the working class may be afforded some representation. I will continue to educate folks of the need for a same day single primary so that it doesn't take a boatload of lobbyists' $ for a candidate to traipse across the country defending him or herself in the media against the propaganda of richer, more beholden candidates. I will support candidates who limit the campaign contributions they will accept from both corporate and private sources. And I will work outside of the system to support organic farmers, artists, mom and pop services and stores. I will purchase with regard to real cost as opposed to price. I will honor need and limit want, so that others' needs may be fulfilled enough to dream of wanting.
And i will not automatically listen to the system tell me that the only way to change the system is by using the system.
I don't expect that I will see the change I work toward in this lifetime. But I do not expect to be instantly gratified. And I don't feel the least bit lazy or apathetic. Those are labels stamped by folks who have something to gain by keeping folks in line.
I will not consumate a corrupt "democracy". steps off soapbox...
And Aly-Dennis Kucinich is a good man of integrity who has fought his whole career for the underdog. He is the only major candidate running who practises what he preaches. He deserves your primary vote. Check him out !! Unfortunately, he will be dismissed, with the only commentary being about his size, his pretty wife, and his "unelectability".
"It was then I learned I'd had enough, burned my credit card for fuel..."-Neil Young-Thrasher
We are getting screwed by the press, which (gasp) is owned by corporations! Hilary has no way of winning the general election, nor does Obama, but they are the ones we hear about. Richardson is probably the only dem candidate with real experience in governing and in foreign relations...when was the last time you heard anything about him? The popular (read: predestined by the press and the big money) candidate will get the nomination and then get trounced by the GOP, and then we will have four more, or God forbid, eight more years of this nuts.
so who is it that you voted for that shares your values? who wants to end poverty around the world? who wants to end this crazy war on drugs? who is it that has been one of the 2 options we have had in the past few decades that was worth 2 shits. its hard for me to talk nuts about al gore because i do like alot of what he has to say. but hes a part of the same system. he was also a part of an administration that exaggerated threats and atrocities to take our country to war. and it just happened to be in an area that big business wanted to move into and build pipelines. making up a genocide and at the same time ignoring bin ladens repeated attacks dosent sound like someone id want running nuts. so who is it that was worth your vote and why? im just curious. or did you just vote for the lesser of 2 evils event though they suckass too? i think too many people are brainwashed into voting for pieces of nuts because they have been told its their duty as an american. its our duty as americans to rise up and throw all these retards out of office. but continuing to fund them and vote for them only makes the problem worse. we are facing way more taxation without representation now days then we were from the british. and that was over tea for christs sake!!! they are taking our money and murdering millions in the name of profits and anyone who votes for that should reevaluate their voting status in my opinion. its time for another revolution!!!!! now a days we dont care about tea, pot, shrooms, gas, war, poverty, starvation, or anything else. all americans seem to care about is their cushy ass, disgustingly lazy and unhealthy lifestyle that they live and f**k the rest of the world. its sickening.
Last Edit: Oct 30, 2007 14:47:45 GMT -5 by Dude - Back to Top
Post by stallion pt. 2 on Oct 30, 2007 15:30:54 GMT -5
dudewhersmyinforoo said:
so who is it that you voted for that shares your values? who wants to end poverty around the world? who wants to end this crazy war on drugs? who is it that has been one of the 2 options we have had in the past few decades that was worth 2 shits. its hard for me to talk nuts about al gore because i do like alot of what he has to say. but hes a part of the same system. he was also a part of an administration that exaggerated threats and atrocities to take our country to war. and it just happened to be in an area that big business wanted to move into and build pipelines. making up a genocide and at the same time ignoring bin ladens repeated attacks dosent sound like someone id want running nuts. so who is it that was worth your vote and why? im just curious. or did you just vote for the lesser of 2 evils event though they suckass too? i think too many people are brainwashed into voting for pieces of nuts because they have been told its their duty as an american. its our duty as americans to rise up and throw all these retards out of office. but continuing to fund them and vote for them only makes the problem worse. we are facing way more taxation without representation now days then we were from the british. and that was over tea for christs sake!!! they are taking our money and murdering millions in the name of profits and anyone who votes for that should reevaluate their voting status in my opinion. its time for another revolution!!!!! now a days we dont care about tea, pot, shrooms, gas, war, poverty, starvation, or anything else. all americans seem to care about is their cushy ass, disgustingly lazy and unhealthy lifestyle that they live and f**k the rest of the world. its sickening.
Well, Chris Richardson, mentioned in the post above yours has been an outspoken advocate for marijuana legalization since he was elected Gov. of New Mexico. Of course, you wouldn't know that because your too busy thrashing around crying revolution and not paying attention to what's going on in politics. There's also the GREEN party, which has consistantly been crying for reform of marijuana laws. I know it's not the same as a blanket end to the war on drugs, but it's a step in the right direction.
No one candidate will totally encompass all of your views, no matter who you are. Compromise is an essential element of electoral democracy, but pushing that compromise n a more progressive direction by supporting candidates who do oppose the drug war or the Iraq war or whatever is essential. Thrashing around crying for revolution because no one thinks just like you is annoying and gets us nowhere. We must work outside AND inside the system in order to affect positive change, and a big part of that is keeping these issues and the candidates who support them in the media and in the spotlight giving them support and showing that Americans who think this way are not a fringe minority. If eveyrone who thought like you got their asses to the polls and supported these candidates the political landscape would be very different. But every election where your voice goes unheard just reenforces the status quo notion that your ideas are just the lunatic fringe
Just f@cking vote already. Is it really so difficult. And don't forget the local level. Those elections matter the most.
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
ok well thats all fine and good. but where was my option to vote for chris richardson. i must have missed him in the debates. and the ballots. and on tv. and on radio. and on signs in front yards. it almost seems as though the one party system has spent a century corrupting the election system so that no one has a chance but the doucebags they select. why are you so easily upset about anothers decisions to not vote for douchebags??? im much more up set with all of you people that keep participating in such a corrupt and fucked up system like everything is ok. i refuse to vote for some evil dipshit just because some prick likes to think hes a better american or a better person because he runs out every 4 years to vote for some retarded f**k in a corrupt illusion of an election so he can feel better about himself and whine about people who choose not to participate in such nonsense.
and do you read these threads??? im not alone. there are plenty who agree with me. there are a lot of not-sees like yourself that like to feel good about this illusion that our government has set up. its laughable. i cant believe there are still people that cant see whats going on. its so sad. its time to f**king start thrashing around and crying revolution! or you can just keep casting your worthless votes and feeling good about yourself and continue being apart of the problem. every election you vote in is what is re-enforcing the status quo. i dont know what world you have to be from to not-see that. i cant wait till all these religious idiots die off and become the lunatic fringe instead of the lunatic majority. no matter who you vote for its a religious vote because the religious fucks are who is choosing the 2 choices we get. i cant wait for the not-sees to die off. oh well im just gonna smoke my herb, have fun with friends and family and stay below the radar. hopefully none of the fucks yall keep voting for catch up with me and take away my freedom to do that.
the problem with america today. it is "the land of the free" where every moron is free to f**k things up and reproduce. for the first time that i can see in history evoloution is going backwards. there is no more survival of the fittest. any moron can survive to vote and reproduce. no matter how dumb, defective, or unhealthy they are. one day the revolution will come. on a global scale. and whos gonna be ready? the fat mcdonalds slobs that depend on grocery stores and cars and electricity, or the family over in the desert with 25 ak47's and rpgs living off hard work. the weak die before they are 3 over there. over here they are coddled and cared for so they can waste resources and be a massive burden when the sh!t hits the fan. its harsh but its reality. we may have pussified our society so much that anyone can survive but this is still earth and its still nature. this is temporary. survival of the fittest will come back with a vengeance and i feel bad for 98% of americans when it does.. how much will your vote mean when the dipshits you voted for are holed up in a bunker with their gold and their families? dont show up on my step looking for food or protection. go talk to bush or kerry or whoever the hell you cast that magical fix all vote of yours for.
Last Edit: Nov 1, 2007 13:46:24 GMT -5 by Dude - Back to Top
^^^ Yes our country is fucked up, but is it beyond hope? I don't necessarily think so. I think if Hillary gets nominated, then it might possibly be. Cynicism, like the above, seems to do nothing but perpetuate the attitude that nothing can be done about it, so why should we bother. I think that's a terrible idea personally. I understand where you're coming from Dude, but we've got to do something. Protest, write your congress people, vote. It's all we've got right now.
i think the required changes are possible. but not through voting in this corrupt system. change by voting is dead in this country. its waaaaaaaaay too far gone! so no the country is not beyond hope but our government and electoral process sure as hell are beyond hope.
Last Edit: Nov 1, 2007 13:56:19 GMT -5 by Dude - Back to Top
Post by stallion pt. 2 on Nov 1, 2007 14:26:37 GMT -5
dudewhersmyinforoo said:
i think the required changes are possible. but not through voting in this corrupt system. change by voting is dead in this country. its waaaaaaaaay too far gone! so no the country is not beyond hope but our government and electoral process sure as hell are beyond hope.
You still aren't listening to me (that is not surprising coming from a self rightous wook like yourself). I never said voting was a fix-all feel-good measure. It IS a vital part of democracy, but just a part. But without that part we have a dictatorship. I will say it again (And I hope you f@cking listen this time) voting is only a PART of what needs to be done. Direct action is as, if not more, essential. The reason Richardson was not on your ballot is because people like you, who would support him, have already given up. You say the religious nuts are a majority and you're wrong! You are the majority, and guess what, the majority of people (like you) don't vote, so we have crappy candidates supported by a few who get elected while you continue wanking. It sounds like you should get the Fuck- outta this country because you are not willing to participate in a democracy. You just want "revolution" cause you think it sounds cool. If you aren't willing to participate--get the -Fuck- out!
It's people like you who make me hate hippies. All talk and no action. Enjoy your herb while you can. Or better yet go to Canada so other people can work towards making a difference, in the voting booth AND in the streets!
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
George Carlin was known to compare voting to masturbation. Only difference is that after masturbating, you can see the difference you made !
Until we change the process by which candidates are elected, we will have a democracy representing the independently wealthy and those beholden to corporations. It's that way by corruption of design. And the powers that be are willing to do whatever it takes to keep that change from happening. Why did a committee formed by members of both major parties keep Nader from debating in 2000 while allowing Perot to debate previously ? Answer-Perot posed no threat to the establishment.
Why do votes stop getting counted when a major party winner is declared ? Answer-to keep a third party from being given federally matching funds whenever that party achieves 5% in a presidential election. It was the Main reason I voted for Nader in 2000, to get the Green Party federally matched campaign funding. Never happened. Not cuz the vote wasn't there, but because it wasn't counted.
Stallion, you present strong arguments, but I think you weaken your position by resorting to name calling and generalizing about hippies and wooks. You will be the one who suffers for that more than those you label. Or at least, you may be suprised by those you discount.
Post by stallion pt. 2 on Nov 1, 2007 14:52:58 GMT -5
snoochie2 said:
Stallion, you present strong arguments, but I think you weaken your position by resorting to name calling and generalizing about hippies and wooks. You will be the one who suffers for that more than those you label. Or at least, you may be suprised by those you discount.
True, but after presenting my arguments multiple times, and having Dude post responses where he refuses to listen and starts putting words in my mouth, I start screaming.
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
Stallion, you present strong arguments, but I think you weaken your position by resorting to name calling and generalizing about hippies and wooks. You will be the one who suffers for that more than those you label. Or at least, you may be suprised by those you discount.
True, but after presenting my arguments multiple times, and having Dude post responses where he refuses to listen and starts putting words in my mouth, I start screaming.
Yeah, but the one thing you are doing that Dude isnt doing is attacking him personally.
Yes dude has strong opinions, some of which I agree with, but I have not read one instance of him attcking YOU personally. This is the second thread I have read today where you have attacked him personally.
I respectfully request that you put an end to the personal attacks immediately, thank you!
"Some say a comet will fall from the sky Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves Followed by fault lines that will not sit still Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits"
Back to the original purpose of this thread........this was in the Tennessean today
The drug trade in Tennessee wouldn't be profitable without steps the state takes to ensure legal businesses can thrive, Attorney General Bob Cooper argued Friday. Cooper's legal filing is part of an attempt to get the state Supreme Court to hear an appeal of a September ruling on Tennessee's levy on illegal drugs. The lower court ruled the so-called crack tax unconstitutional, saying it is "arbitrary, capricious and unreasonable.''
The court said legitimate businesses can be taxed because the state provides the basic conditions that allow trade to take place. Because the state is trying to destroy the drug trade, it shouldn't also be allowed to tax it. But Cooper argues that the state provides a structure and an environment for businesses whether they are legitimate or not.
"Without the physical infrastructure to facilitate the drug trade and the economic environment fostered by the state to provide for means for buyers to provide a demand for the dealer's goods, the trade of the drug dealer could not be profitably pursued in Tennessee,'' he wrote in the filing.
Cooper also argued that the Supreme Court should find drug dealers to be the equivalent of legitimate merchants, even if their wares are illegal. The drug tax has been on the books in Tennessee since 2005. It requires people to buy tax stamps for illegal drugs and liquor, just as wholesalers must buy for cigarettes.
The law allows the state to go after the belongings of people who are caught with illegal drugs or alcohol that don't bear the special tax stamps.
Information obtained from the sale of the drug stamps cannot be used in criminal cases, but buying the stamps does not provide immunity from prosecution.