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Post by headynugsinthalot on Jun 2, 2014 21:31:06 GMT -5
I wanted to title this thread "the problem with live music" or something negative like that, but it would belie my point.
let me first preface this with my credentials/pedigree. I have worked in live sound for more than a decade. I have attended almost every single Bonnaroo. I have worked with small acts, and huge acts. I have a degree in music as well as a degree in recording engineering. I have found an affinity for almost every genre of music. I was raised on hippy stuff, had a pubescent renaissance with 90's grunge and alternative rock, found zappa and thought i was better than everyone else for getting it, took a lot of courses about dead composers, grew to like country music, drank purple stuff while enjoying DJ screw and Brotha Lynch Hung, stood pathologically stoic at a cephalic carnage concert and made money on the side DJing top 40. I even had a Bollywood phase. So I have done a decent job pervading and experiencing some of the deepest corners of music, from GG Allin to Lawrence Welk, from Townes Van Zandt to Varese, from Lil Flip to Flaming Lips. I am not stating this to boast, but to set the point that I have a multi-faceted grasp on music. Not saying that my opinion has more weight than anyone else's... but what the fuck is up with Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds? I'm kidding, this is not entirely what this post is about...
what does dubstep and disco have in common?
in the 70's, sound systems were just starting to be able to reproduce 80Hz well. the concept of feeling that 4/4 beat in your sternum was an entirely new experience for most people. Same with Dubstep: these giant line array systems until recently had not been able to reproduce square and sawtooth waves without catching on fire. Reproducing those sounds was like discovering a new color. It added a new dynamic to experiencing concerts.
I remember being far away in the back of the What field when Tool came on and Maynard whispered something like "whats up you smelly hippy's" and it sounded like he was right next to me. They had 7 or 9 delay towers that year and the sound was magical.
So what do all these things have to do with each other, you are rambling dude...
the point: Playing AT the crowd, no longer cuts it. Wayne Coyne gets it. Make it an interactive journey. simply coming out and playing music that I can sit in my car and listen to is not enough anymore. When Beck did the puppet show--fucking awesome. when Jay-Z had that phenomenal backdrop. R Kelly released the doves, Wayne rolls out in a hamster ball and passes out 50k laser pointers, Stevie Wonder had 100 different nations playing their respective drums... that is what makes it a full concert now.
have a show. do not be some animatronic reproduction of your CD's in slightly different order. Bring something more. I am not even saying that you need a gimmick or to be chintzy, but it has to be a show--an entire package, complete sentence, full thought, overall theme, band antics. Something more than "yeah dude, i was like 12 feet away from him when he played that one song, twas epic...". Mumford and sons gently strumming mandolins in cardigans is not a show, it is a reproduction. it is idolatry, fame worship. fame proximity. It is no better than people who spend their entire vacation taking pictures to show how awesome of a time they had when they went somewhere and took all these pictures. "This is me smiling in cancun, and... oh here this one is great, all of us hunched over smiling in barbados"...
I really like Cherub's music. Just watched a few live shows of theirs and I don't even want to go now. They are atrocious live it seems. Same goes with Nick Cave, wasn't a fan of his before the lineup dropped; but after seeing him stand up there like a cardboard cut out makes me want to go just to throw something at him.
Maybe it is a commentary on the nature of fans nowadays, but I feel like we need more than just people playing instruments. "i went to that show and he played that one song i know every word to! it was amazing!". I feel like I am swimming upstream here when all everyone wants is to be comforted by the familiar while I want to be awed by the unfamiliar. "holy shit, who are these guys?". It is ok if you saw a band in Knoxville and then in Athens and it was the exact same show. They weren't expecting you to be at both. It is just like a theatrical play: they made a complete concept and go town to town doing that over and over again. All experiences should be a one time thing, trying to chase that across state lines to relive that moment is ridiculous.
Post by headynugsinthalot on Jun 2, 2014 21:45:46 GMT -5
do this: take your #1 band you want to see live.
Now imagine that you buy tickets to go to that concert.
Now imagine that you find out it will not be the actual members of that band, but rather other unknown musicians flawlessly playing their concert (See Darkstar Orchestra).
Does it change anything? does your ticket seem different? would you have paid that much for it? are you less excited?
why? if the only thing that has changed is that the guy playing guitar does not look like the guy that should be playing guitar... then what has been lost?
if you poop in a port-a-potty and no one see's you, do you feel as dirty?
I enjoyed reading this, and tho I don't 100% agree with everything you said, I certainly respect where it's coming from and why.
Sometimes, just playing their instruments is enough IMO. If the energy is there, if they are giving it their all, the crowd will react. If a band played their most recent album in order from first to last, but still acknowledged the crowed and played with some swagger, I would still be fully engaged and entertained. I don't need gimmicks to enjoy a show. The atmosphere created by the music being played, and the demeanour of those playing it are what do it for me.
All that said, I bet I'll be seeing you at Goat and King Khan
Post by Delicious Meatball Sub on Jun 2, 2014 22:00:19 GMT -5
Listen, like what you like. Lots of people will be choosing the Flips over Nick Cave Saturday night, that's not a big deal. But don't act like because you will be one of them you have some ancient wisdom that the rest of us rubes will never understand.
I half agree with you. 21 pilots was my favorite show last year because of the stunts and crowd interactions that they had On the other hand sometimes the crowd has just as much to do with the show as the performer, a great fun crowd can make a show amazing or horrible for me. I'm sure the performer also feels this way (I know I have from a performers view.) Just because you saw a video of nick cave on the internet and weren't turned on I wouldn't completely dismiss his show. In the end go to who you want to see, but there's a certain element to being in the middle of a crowd listening to someone everyone admires and feels connected to. Anyways, I'm sure I've told you nothing you haven't already considered or thought of or experienced. Have a good Roo
This place just gets more and more whack. You're basically putting every person who enjoys live music in the same box, when in reality people have always gone to music shows and festivals for a wide variety of reasons. You want flash and spectacle, great. I can get down with that. But none of your examples makes sense, including the Mumford example, for people who want to watch the showmanship of an instrument, to share the energy with a bunch off fans or just to feel. A music show is like a painting. It can elicit feelings without explosions or TJ Hooker riding out on the hood of a car.
Post by celestiaequestria on Jun 2, 2014 23:37:43 GMT -5
You're getting too hung up on a low-hanging concept, at least in the art world. Look, Warhol said it years ago, what is art? Art is what I point at and call art. Why? Because I'm an artist. I am the mediator of that authenticity. And who gives me that power? You do.
A musician is the same way. Wiz Khalifa actually DOES your example, he shows up, a live band plays his music for him, and he walks around and hangs out with stoners. Why? Because that's what they want him to do. The only reason you'd see him live is to *be there*, it's a validation of your participation, there's no actual need for him to perform, though he does. Other bands, you're there to see them act it out. You want My Morning Jacket on stage playing on instruments with some sort of set and showmanship. That's the sell of their live show.
But it's not all going to be the same, they're not all going to walk out on stage and put on the crazy show. Sometimes they're just a band there playing music. That's not my favorite kind of show, I agree, but they don't always need a song-and-dance number. Certain bands - Grouplove comes to mind - could literally just show up and jam, and I'll be thrilled. Each musician defines what their music is - what their art is - and we as an audience validate their right do so. You can get mad if you want, because there will always be "idiots" who validate simplistic musical concepts / low-grade performances, but it should also make you happy, because we have the capacity to vote with our participation in more interesting, intellectual musical experiences.
Same goes with Nick Cave, wasn't a fan of his before the lineup dropped; but after seeing him stand up there like a cardboard cut out makes me want to go just to throw something at him.
You have a multi-faceted grasp on music but you want to throw something at a performer because he doesn't have lasers and a hamster ball? I wasn't going to comment on this, because seriously, what's the point. I'm not going to change your mind, and you aren't going to change mine. But I saw Nick Cave perform at the Ryman. I was not very familiar with his music, so I can't be accused of fame worship or idolatry. He puts on quite the live show. I was highly entertained. I even took a picture with my phone. You know, to show I was there.
I hope I never become so jaded that I require a huge spectacle to feel I have gotten my moneys worth. Sometimes, a quiet show with friends that enjoy the performer as much as i do is quite enough.
I wanted to title this thread "the problem with live music" or something negative like that, but it would belie my point.
let me first preface this with my credentials/pedigree. I have worked in live sound for more than a decade. I have attended almost every single Bonnaroo. I have worked with small acts, and huge acts. I have a degree in music as well as a degree in recording engineering. I have found an affinity for almost every genre of music. I was raised on hippy stuff, had a pubescent renaissance with 90's grunge and alternative rock, found zappa and thought i was better than everyone else for getting it, took a lot of courses about dead composers, grew to like country music, drank purple stuff while enjoying DJ screw and Brotha Lynch Hung, stood pathologically stoic at a cephalic carnage concert and made money on the side DJing top 40. I even had a Bollywood phase. So I have done a decent job pervading and experiencing some of the deepest corners of music, from GG Allin to Lawrence Welk, from Townes Van Zandt to Varese, from Lil Flip to Flaming Lips. I am not stating this to boast, but to set the point that I have a multi-faceted grasp on music. Not saying that my opinion has more weight than anyone else's... but what the fuck is up with Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds? I'm kidding, this is not entirely what this post is about...
what does dubstep and disco have in common?
in the 70's, sound systems were just starting to be able to reproduce 80Hz well. the concept of feeling that 4/4 beat in your sternum was an entirely new experience for most people. Same with Dubstep: these giant line array systems until recently had not been able to reproduce square and sawtooth waves without catching on fire. Reproducing those sounds was like discovering a new color. It added a new dynamic to experiencing concerts.
I remember being far away in the back of the What field when Tool came on and Maynard whispered something like "whats up you smelly hippy's" and it sounded like he was right next to me. They had 7 or 9 delay towers that year and the sound was magical.
So what do all these things have to do with each other, you are rambling dude...
the point: Playing AT the crowd, no longer cuts it. Wayne Coyne gets it. Make it an interactive journey. simply coming out and playing music that I can sit in my car and listen to is not enough anymore. When Beck did the puppet show--fucking awesome. when Jay-Z had that phenomenal backdrop. R Kelly released the doves, Wayne rolls out in a hamster ball and passes out 50k laser pointers, Stevie Wonder had 100 different nations playing their respective drums... that is what makes it a full concert now.
have a show. do not be some animatronic reproduction of your CD's in slightly different order. Bring something more. I am not even saying that you need a gimmick or to be chintzy, but it has to be a show--an entire package, complete sentence, full thought, overall theme, band antics. Something more than "yeah dude, i was like 12 feet away from him when he played that one song, twas epic...". Mumford and sons gently strumming mandolins in cardigans is not a show, it is a reproduction. it is idolatry, fame worship. fame proximity. It is no better than people who spend their entire vacation taking pictures to show how awesome of a time they had when they went somewhere and took all these pictures. "This is me smiling in cancun, and... oh here this one is great, all of us hunched over smiling in barbados"...
I really like Cherub's music. Just watched a few live shows of theirs and I don't even want to go now. They are atrocious live it seems. Same goes with Nick Cave, wasn't a fan of his before the lineup dropped; but after seeing him stand up there like a cardboard cut out makes me want to go just to throw something at him.
Maybe it is a commentary on the nature of fans nowadays, but I feel like we need more than just people playing instruments. "i went to that show and he played that one song i know every word to! it was amazing!". I feel like I am swimming upstream here when all everyone wants is to be comforted by the familiar while I want to be awed by the unfamiliar. "holy shit, who are these guys?". It is ok if you saw a band in Knoxville and then in Athens and it was the exact same show. They weren't expecting you to be at both. It is just like a theatrical play: they made a complete concept and go town to town doing that over and over again. All experiences should be a one time thing, trying to chase that across state lines to relive that moment is ridiculous.
/rant
I was going to post a well thought out response but then realized that this post didn't deserve one.
Now imagine that you buy tickets to go to that concert.
Now imagine that you find out it will not be the actual members of that band, but rather other unknown musicians flawlessly playing their concert (See Darkstar Orchestra).
Does it change anything? does your ticket seem different? would you have paid that much for it? are you less excited?
why? if the only thing that has changed is that the guy playing guitar does not look like the guy that should be playing guitar... then what has been lost?
if you poop in a port-a-potty and no one see's you, do you feel as dirty?
#Bonnalophisy101
Now imagine you logon to inforoo.
Now imagine that you find out headynugsinthalot will not actually be posting, but rather an unknown poster writing his posts.
Does it change anything? Does hiss post seem different? Would you have spent less time reading it? Are you less confused?
Why? If the only thing that has changed is that the guy posting nonsense is some other random guy positing nonsense... then what has been lost?
If you post in "some get it, and some don't" and no one likes it, do you feel as dirty?
#Bonnalophisy101
Last Edit: Jun 3, 2014 0:51:27 GMT -5 by r - Back to Top
Post by headynugsinthalot on Jun 3, 2014 1:31:12 GMT -5
it was a commentary on the current state of live music as I see it, not a commentary on each individual one of you. If anything it is a commentary on myself.
(i will be at the skrillex superjam, not flips or nick cave.)
When I watched Nick Cave I thought someone had shot Lyle Lovett with a tranquilizer dart.
I am not trying to tell people how to Roo or even appreciate music. I almost feel pathological when everyone is "OMGZ0RS Nick Cave is the greatest" and I am sitting here trying to figure out what the hell it is that people see. I am not saying that your taste in music is poor, because I think almost everything has an "opening" into appreciating... I just can't find that mindset that allows me to get inside it.
I remember one time my friends were going on and on for weeks about this new black metal band and I tried and tried to like it. I want to like it because why not? enjoying something is always preferable to not enjoying something right? Finally I stopped trying and instantly understood it... instead of trying to understand the guttural demonic words, I listened to it as like a 2D object. I wasn't trying to compartmentalize every instrument and such. then I got it and I have enjoyed black metal ever since.
and I would never really throw anything at a performer, unless it was Kanye and he was an hour late this time... then maybe.
and no Neil Young doesn't need to get in a hamster ball, but something better than me closing my eyes, using my imagination, and playing his CD. I saw buffalo springfield, can't tell you one song they played. Maybe it was because the sound was so low, but a pretty unremarkable show IMO. maybe I should have taken a few pictures to remind of that time i took some pictures at buffalo springfield?
Now imagine that you buy tickets to go to that concert.
Now imagine that you find out it will not be the actual members of that band, but rather other unknown musicians flawlessly playing their concert (See Darkstar Orchestra).
Does it change anything? does your ticket seem different? would you have paid that much for it? are you less excited?
why? if the only thing that has changed is that the guy playing guitar does not look like the guy that should be playing guitar... then what has been lost?
if you poop in a port-a-potty and no one see's you, do you feel as dirty?
#Bonnalophisy101
Now imagine you logon to inforoo.
Now imagine that you find out headynugsinthalot will not actually be posting, but rather an unknown poster writing his posts.
Does it change anything? Does hiss post seem different? Would you have spent less time reading it? Are you less confused?
Why? If the only thing that has changed is that the guy posting nonsense is some other random guy positing nonsense... then what has been lost?
If you post in "some get it, and some don't" and no one likes it, do you feel as dirty?
#Bonnalophisy101
now imagine that I am actually ICantEnough.
now have people's attitude towards my posts changed? has anything changed? do my posts seem different? are you less confused?
have a fun Bonnaroo everyone! I'll come chat again next year.
