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Post by DueDylangence on Aug 1, 2019 12:05:57 GMT -5
Esteban usually I understand your hometown passion and it’s within limits but this is ludicrous. Thomas is in a Sean Payton offense who is one of the best offensive coaches ever and catching passes from the most accurate QB ever. Not to mention he’s been surrounded by Kamara, Ingram, Ginn, Snead, and Cooks. His completion percentage is awesome, but he also runs a lot more short high percentage routes which explains his catch volume but fewer yards then his elite company. He’s a VERY good receiver no doubt but 32 out of 32 GMs are picking Jones, Beckham, Hopkins and Brown over him everyday based on talent alone. I’d probably even put Mike Evans, Tyreek Hill, and Theilen over him too but those are debatable.
Esteban usually I understand your hometown passion and it’s within limits but this is ludicrous. Thomas is in a Sean Payton offense who is one of the best offensive coaches ever and catching passes from the most accurate QB ever. Not to mention he’s been surrounded by Kamara, Ingram, Ginn, Snead, and Cooks. His completion percentage is awesome, but he also runs a lot more short high percentage routes which explains his catch volume but fewer yards then his elite company. He’s a VERY good receiver no doubt but 32 out of 32 GMs are picking Jones, Beckham, Hopkins and Brown over him everyday based on talent alone. I’d probably even put Mike Evans, Tyreek Hill, and Theilen over him too but those are debatable.
Not ludicrous. And as an aside about Jerry Rice, he's still got 13 years to catch up to him. However Rice I think owns a few of the total receptions through "x" years (maybe in the early teens?). Thomas, like Rice, is not the fastest guy on the field, and that's not his game. He can beat you deep, but it's more that he's going to come down with the ball and beat you than just outrace the fastest cornerbacks. That isn't going to happen. No chance 32 out of 32 GM's take the others you mentioned, though some may have favorites one or the other. You might could add AJ Green to that list too at least up until now. And as addressed with sang yesterday, the gross yardage is mitigated by the yards per attempt. His catch ratio makes up the difference between someone who catches 6 out of 10 passes for 15 yards instead of 8 out of 10 for 11. It also explains why he's ahead of all receivers all time in catches to this point.
You or anyone can put who you want over him. Anyone can. He didn't get to be the highest paid non-QB in history because he's 5th or 10th or 20th best.
The other couple of points I'd argue is that yeah, Payton is all time offensive mind. And he makes all players perform better than what you think they're going to do because he knows how to exploit matchups. But not all of our players can always be dismissed as "products of a system." When you produce at Top level, which Thomas has done in several categories, it's not just because of the system you're in. That's been a knock on Brees as record after record falls. Yeah, Coach is a big part of it. But Brees' arm and accuracy delivers the ball. Thomas' hands catch. As to the point about him being surrounded by a lot of talent, that was addressed yesterday regarding complimentary receivers. We literally had no one outside of Thomas and Kamara who caught many balls last year. Someone had in the 30's (maybe Ben Watson?), a couple others in the 20's. That's it. He had Cooks in year 1. I love Cooks. But a lot of people I know felt like he's a complimentary 2/Y WR more than anything whereas Thomas is a legit #1. Ginn was hurt last year and only had catches in the teens. Snead was gone last year and didn't have but like 10 catches in 2017 following the suspension. That was a mystery coming out of his 2016 campaign.
Michael Thomas is nowhere near the level of Seattle Seahawks great Jerry Rice.
Has Jerry Rice ever created a market?
Call it what you want. I'll just offer you a small dose of reality and suggest that you might want to read some headlines and maybe argue with the professional and amateur authors who wrote them instead of trying to pick shit here.
Thomas paves the way for Julio Jones and Tyreek Hill
Saints understood Thomas' Value and WR market is now set for Amari Cooper, Julio Jones
Saints Michael Thomas Resets WR Market
Saints WR Michael Thomas resets the WR market, will Amari Cooper Be Next?
How the Landmark Deal for Michael Thomas impacts Amari Cooper, Cowboys Contract Talks
What Michael Thomas' Deal Means for Julio Jones, Falcons
Julio Jones is the Biggest Winner of the Michael Thomas Extension
Michael Thomas' Contract is Bad News for Melvin Gordon and Ezekiel Elliott
Michael Thomas' New Deal Ranks Him Ahead of Beckham Jr. & Brown
Here's What Chiefs Should Pay Tyreek Hill after Michael Thomas...
Tyreek Looking at Michael Thomas
Falcons WR Jones' contract could be north of Thomas'
Cowboys reluctant to be "market-setter" in contract talks
Cowboys VP Jones: We aren't market setters
To me? It's not a fucking giant step to say he created the market we're in now. Yeah, OBJ got paid before him. And others will be paid after. And he'll keep breaking OBJ's and others' records. And y'all can keep talking. That's what it is. One liners and two sentence opinions, often snarky, without backup. It's expected around here with all the Panthers and Falcons fans. You'd think Patriots fans wouldn't be as lazy with the snark and lack of backup.
It's not a fucking giant step to say he created the market we're in now. Yeah, OBJ got paid before him.
This is a direct contradiction fyi
It could be at a base level. It is also a fact that OBJ set the records and got paid first. Thomas topped the records and got paid more. It's the new standard - for now.
It could be at a base level. It is also a fact that OBJ set the records and got paid first. Thomas topped the records and got paid more. It's the new standard - for now.
You know what I haven't had in a while? Big League Chew.
I always wanted to like the bubble gum and strawberry BLC more. It's great at first, but it always seemed to end up losing flavor so fast though - like pal or dubble bubble or fleer or some of the other o.g. bubblegums.
Maybe Top 10 or 15, but he also does not compare with #cantguardmike
FWIW, Julio is likely to get a deal that will surpass in some way Thomas' contract. Morning paper says they'll find a way to be able to call it the "richest non-QB contract ever" though it's probably more likely to be a 3-4 year deal instead of a 5. We'll see what happens and how they negotiate it to give him that title. Julio is arguably #2 or #3 in the league.
Back to Evans. You put out stats and people say not to look at the man behind the curtain. How you can even compare Evans to the elite WR's in football is something. Thomas will likely have accomplished in 4 seasons all that Evans has done in 5. Let's look at the tape of the last 3 years where it's evident that he doesn't even measure up to DeAndre Hopkins much less Michael Thomas:
2016
Big Money Mike - 92 Receptions, 1137 yards, 9 TD's, 76% catch %, 9.4 yards per target, 29 unsuccessful targets <-- Rookie Year
Stuck in Tampa Mike - 96 Receptions, 1321 Yards, 12 TD's, 55.% catch %, 7.6 yards per target; 77 unsuccessful targets
2017
Big Money Mike - 104 Receptions, 1245 yards, 5 TD's, 69.8 catch %, 8.4 yards per target, 45 unsuccessful targets
Stuck in Tampa Mike - 71 Receptions, 1001 yards, 5 TD's, 52.2% catch %, 7.4 yards per target, 65 unsuccessful targets
2018
Big Money Mike - 125 Receptions, 1405 yards, 9 TD's, 85.0% catch percentage, 9.6 yards per target, 22 unsuccessful targets
Stuck in Tampa Mike - 86 Receptions, 1524 yards, 8 TD's, 62.3% catch percentage, 11.0 yards per target, 52 unsuccessful targets
If you want to look at the entirety of their careers, in 3 years, Thomas is only 74 receptions behind Evans and has only 96 unsuccessful targets. Evans has 322. Got that? Three hundred and twenty-two. If you divide that by his 77 professional games thus far, he's generating a "solid" 4.182 incompletions a game. Thomas is sitting around 2.
Maybe Top 10 or 15, but he also does not compare with #cantguardmike
FWIW, Julio is likely to get a deal that will surpass in some way Thomas' contract. Morning paper says they'll find a way to be able to call it the "richest non-QB contract ever" though it's probably more likely to be a 3-4 year deal instead of a 5. We'll see what happens and how they negotiate it to give him that title. Julio is arguably #2 or #3 in the league.
Back to Evans. You put out stats and people say not to look at the man behind the curtain. How you can even compare Evans to the elite WR's in football is something. Thomas will likely have accomplished in 4 seasons all that Evans has done in 5. Let's look at the tape of the last 3 years where it's evident that he doesn't even measure up to DeAndre Hopkins much less Michael Thomas:
2016
Big Money Mike - 92 Receptions, 1137 yards, 9 TD's, 76% catch %, 9.4 yards per target, 29 unsuccessful targets <-- Rookie Year
Stuck in Tampa Mike - 96 Receptions, 1321 Yards, 12 TD's, 55.% catch %, 7.6 yards per target; 77 unsuccessful targets
2017
Big Money Mike - 104 Receptions, 1245 yards, 5 TD's, 69.8 catch %, 8.4 yards per target, 45 unsuccessful targets
Stuck in Tampa Mike - 71 Receptions, 1001 yards, 5 TD's, 52.2% catch %, 7.4 yards per target, 65 unsuccessful targets
2018
Big Money Mike - 125 Receptions, 1405 yards, 9 TD's, 85.0% catch percentage, 9.6 yards per target, 22 unsuccessful targets
Stuck in Tampa Mike - 86 Receptions, 1524 yards, 8 TD's, 62.3% catch percentage, 11.0 yards per target, 52 unsuccessful targets
If you want to look at the entirety of their careers, in 3 years, Thomas is only 74 receptions behind Evans and has only 96 unsuccessful targets. Evans has 322. Got that? Three hundred and twenty-two. If you divide that by his 77 professional games thus far, he's generating a "solid" 4.182 incompletions a game. Thomas is sitting around 2.
I'll take my chanches
If Evans had Brees throwing to him, in Payton's offense, you'd be singing a different tune. I can't wait for Brees to be done. I'll buy the first round on that day!
LOL. That light at the end of the tunnel might be Teddy Bridgewater or Taysom Hill. You don't want to see those guys either. We'll be fucking Jameis right in the pussy regardless. I'll take you up on the round.
LOL. That light at the end of the tunnel might be Teddy Bridgewater or Taysom Hill. You don't want to see those guys either. We'll be fucking Jameis right in the pussy regardless. I'll take you up on the round.
I thought Hill was a RB? Or maybe a TE? I'm sure he will be just as good a Brees.
Who knows what Hill is. He wants to be a starting QB in the NFL, but he plays more like a fullback. I don't know if he's got the arm skills to be full time as he hasn't always looked great in pre-season though he can certainly work the run option with Kamara trailing. He does enjoy wrecking people.
LOL. That light at the end of the tunnel might be Teddy Bridgewater or Taysom Hill. You don't want to see those guys either. We'll be fucking Jameis right in the pussy regardless. I'll take you up on the round.
Drew Brees is maybe the most accurate QB of all time, you're kidding yourself if you think comparing completions from him to Winston is anything but laughable.
I think I'd put Antonio Brown and of course the greatest wr of all time in the top 5 with Nuk, Julio and OBJ. Round out the top 10 with the 2 guys from Minnesota, Evans, healthy AJ Green and JuJu.
LOL. That light at the end of the tunnel might be Teddy Bridgewater or Taysom Hill. You don't want to see those guys either. We'll be fucking Jameis right in the pussy regardless. I'll take you up on the round.
Drew Brees is maybe the most accurate QB of all time, you're kidding yourself if you think comparing completions from him to Winston is anything but laughable.
And I did that where, because I didn't know he was completing anything to Winston. But I would also be laughing as it would probably be a trick Pro Bowl play, right?
If you meant Thomas' catch rate on Brees' completions to Evans catch rate on Winston's completions, I already proved two days ago that Thomas catches Brees at a rate of approximately 10% more than the team. Does the same hold true for Mike Evans? We're going to find out.
Winston's career completion rate is 61.6%. Here are the breakdowns:
2015 - 58.3%
2016 - 60.8%
2017 - 63.8%
2018 - 64.6%
Mike Evans Catch % during those 4 years:
2015 - 50.00% (-8.3%)
2016 - 55.5% (-5.3%)
2017 - 66.7% (+3.1%)
2018 - 62.3% (-2.3%)
The results are exactly not what shows up with Michael Thomas. If anything, a pass to Evans is a slightly more negative play than anything else in Tampa. You might chalk some of that to long balls that are tough to complete. The rest doesn't measure up. If I'm missing something here, let me know.
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