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tbf, even as pro trans person, I understand why they’d be more concerned over children than adults. Adults have full capacity to consent, and accept the results of their decisions. So yeah, having high levels of scrutiny over the administration of any sort of drugs to kids makes complete sense. I just disagree with people who’d carry that to the extreme of “never give these drugs to kids” because as with all drugs there’s a time and place where they are beneficial to people, just with the proper restrictions on them.
This is bullshit and you know it.
It was never about just kids. They want us gone, full stop.
They're just using "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" as a trojan horse because of the exact line of thinking in this post.
Less fury and more just...musing on my relationships, but some people can actually change when confronted with a loved one who's queer/disabled/whatever. My mom used to say *wildly* transphobic shit that shoved me deeper and deeper in the closet. When I came out, she, y'know, *chilled out because her daughter was a trans person.*
My dad has not chilled out and in fact has only doubled down on his transphobia, but that's neither here nor there.
I’m just saying that I understand the desire to have some level of scrutiny over what drugs children use, as children do not have the capacity to consent or properly educate themselves on risks. Not saying to deny these kids access to treatment, just that having one or two checks in place to ensure it’s the right decision for them makes sense.
And that’s the exact phrasing anti trans activists use. If it were genuine concern about ensuring safe medicine for children (good thing) then trans children wouldn’t be a particularly driving part of this conversation. I’m not saying you’re intending it, xfinitypass, but you’re kinda completely buying into the trick. It’s a dogwhistle and nothing more
For example, can you site specific checks for drugs for children that are not in place? Nobody is talking about how we have rigorous testing for all drugs, even the ones for adults.
I think those conversations/decisions should be made between doctors, children and their parents. As a parent, anything to do with my child would be done with a HUGE amount of caution. I understand wanting to wait until children are older to truly understand what their decision means and so they can understand that not everyone is understanding as well.
Any parent that actually spend time, observe and listens to their child usually knows and is aware of their sexual/gender preferences (even if they deny or don't want to admit it). Most children that are wanting to go through this process are also usually closer to teenager years. When they throw out the word children, they do it so you immediately think of very young kids which helps it bend people to that "but the children" argument. But again, that is not our business, it is between the child, parent and their doctor.
You know who's 26? Me. I've been on hormones for over a year and a half, I am fine.
The "time and place where they are beneficial to people" is ANY time they're beneficial to people and it's not the government's fucking decision.
Less fury and more just...musing on my relationships, but some people can actually change when confronted with a loved one who's queer/disabled/whatever. My mom used to say *wildly* transphobic shit that shoved me deeper and deeper in the closet. When I came out, she, y'know, *chilled out because her daughter was a trans person.*
My dad has not chilled out and in fact has only doubled down on his transphobia, but that's neither here nor there.
I’m just saying that I understand the desire to have some level of scrutiny over what drugs children use, as children do not have the capacity to consent or properly educate themselves on risks. Not saying to deny these kids access to treatment, just that having one or two checks in place to ensure it’s the right decision for them makes sense.
I agree with you. I also don’t think you’re “buying into dog whistle BS” or whatever you’re being accused of. It’s perfectly rational to have concerns over children not having the capacity to fully understand the ramifications of their actions or be fully aware of who they are or what they want to be for the rest of their lives.
For example, can you site specific checks for drugs for children that are not in place? Nobody is talking about how we have rigorous testing for all drugs, even the ones for adults.
I'm sure there are checks in place already, as there should be. Not saying there aren't, just saying I agree with their presence. Adults can do whatever they want with their body that only affects them, but we have to tread with caution with children given their inability to consent. Personally, I'd only really care about this for kids like under 14 or so. I think most non-American cultures are better about recognizing that 14-17 is a lot different age range than a "child" and has laws to give people in those age range more autonomy over their lives.
For example, can you site specific checks for drugs for children that are not in place? Nobody is talking about how we have rigorous testing for all drugs, even the ones for adults.
Adults can do whatever they want with their body that only affects them, but we have to tread with caution with children given their inability to consent.
this is, nearly word for word, what these right wing idiots are using to justify bans on trans healthcare for minors.
Pro-trans person my ass, just say you agree with the bans, get the fuck out of my sight and log off.
Adults can do whatever they want with their body that only affects them, but we have to tread with caution with children given their inability to consent.
this is, nearly word for word, what these right wing idiots are using to justify bans on trans healthcare for minors.
Pro-trans person my ass, just say you agree with the bans, get the fuck out of my sight and log off.
Me: keep the already existing checks in place before administering powerful drugs to the rare cases of people seeking these drugs prior to the age of 14.
You: why do you want to ban trans healthcare for minor? Delete your account bigot.
Just such an unfair and mean spirited twisting of what I said.
The correct answer is that people should decide whether transcare is right for them or their children and not the government. And that will always be the answer.
The correct answer is that people should decide whether transcare is right for them or their children and not the government. And that will always be the answer.
But then if a trans child gets stuck with an anti-trans parent, the parent can just deny treatment. Which is why I think it’d be better to just have standardized checks in the healthcare system. I just think I’m general children’s issues have to approached in a different manor than adult issues, that’s all I’m trying to say, because we have to take into account that (a) children can’t consent, (b) the adult that can consent for them can be a moron. I’m about as socially liberal as they come, but that sort of laissez-faire approach is predicated on the idea that people have the ability to consent and understand the consequences of their choices, which 13- children do not, so a different approach is needed.
The correct answer is that people should decide whether transcare is right for them or their children and not the government. And that will always be the answer.
But then if a trans child gets stuck with an anti-trans parent, the parent can just deny treatment. Which is why I think it’d be better to just have standardized checks in the healthcare system. I just think I’m general children’s issues have to approached in a different manor than adult issues, that’s all I’m trying to say, because we have to take into account that (a) children can’t consent, (b) the adult that can consent for them can be a moron. I’m about as socially liberal as they come, but that sort of laissez-faire approach is predicated on the idea that people have the ability to consent and understand the consequences of their choices, which 13- children do not, so a different approach is needed.
I won't speak on the nuances of trans children vs anti-trans parents as I don't have children and can't make an informed opinion on that. My only point was that much like abortion, government shouldn't be making choices for us, or rather taking choices away from us regarding our own bodies.
As with any other topic, it’s either 100% in favor of everything I say or gtfo!
Are people not allowed to be pro-trans adults but also against medical interventions for minors? Is that not a thing?
What "specifically" is it that you are against? Because medical interventions can range from therapy and testing to puberty blockers and other stuff. What medical interventions that are happening currently do you disagree with and why? Is it ALL medical interventions for minors or only if it is dealing with feelings on gender specifically?
I think it's important to be specific and not just speak in generalities and blanket statements on something like this topic. There are some people who are misinformed and think that kids are being mutilated on a regular basis without any thought or care about their future. Like there are people out there right now who believe you can walk into a doctors office one day and they'll just schedule your kid to be permanently altered and that's just insane to believe that. But it's out there.
But then there are some who don't want any sort of help or support for children who are dealing with feelings of confusion or gender dysphoria or stuff along those lines. Saying that you are against any sort of medical intervention, which could include a few years of talk therapy, lots of research and small steps towards early stages of transitioning (none of which include any kind of permanent change or decision) is a bit different and I'd be curious to know why some feel that way.
As with any other topic, it’s either 100% in favor of everything I say or gtfo!
Are people not allowed to be pro-trans adults but also against medical interventions for minors? Is that not a thing?
What "specifically" is it that you are against? Because medical interventions can range from therapy and testing to puberty blockers and other stuff. What medical interventions that are happening currently do you disagree with and why? Is it ALL medical interventions for minors or only if it is dealing with feelings on gender specifically?
I think it's important to be specific and not just speak in generalities and blanket statements on something like this topic. There are some people who are misinformed and think that kids are being mutilated on a regular basis without any thought or care about their future. Like there are people out there right now who believe you can walk into a doctors office one day and they'll just schedule your kid to be permanently altered and that's just insane to believe that. But it's out there.
But then there are some who don't want any sort of help or support for children who are dealing with feelings of confusion or gender dysphoria or stuff along those lines. Saying that you are against any sort of medical intervention, which could include a few years of talk therapy, lots of research and small steps towards early stages of transitioning (none of which include any kind of permanent change or decision) is a bit different and I'd be curious to know why some feel that way.
This. I think the problem is people don't know what medical care for trans really entails. People think that you are taking kids to doctors and they are put on blockers or scheduled immediately. They don't know, haven't done the research and are therefore triggered or siding against it due to ignorance. And unfortunately, that is why the campaign against trans is working so well.
As with any other topic, it’s either 100% in favor of everything I say or gtfo!
Are people not allowed to be pro-trans adults but also against medical interventions for minors? Is that not a thing?
What "specifically" is it that you are against? Because medical interventions can range from therapy and testing to puberty blockers and other stuff. What medical interventions that are happening currently do you disagree with and why? Is it ALL medical interventions for minors or only if it is dealing with feelings on gender specifically?
I think it's important to be specific and not just speak in generalities and blanket statements on something like this topic. There are some people who are misinformed and think that kids are being mutilated on a regular basis without any thought or care about their future. Like there are people out there right now who believe you can walk into a doctors office one day and they'll just schedule your kid to be permanently altered and that's just insane to believe that. But it's out there.
But then there are some who don't want any sort of help or support for children who are dealing with feelings of confusion or gender dysphoria or stuff along those lines. Saying that you are against any sort of medical intervention, which could include a few years of talk therapy, lots of research and small steps towards early stages of transitioning (none of which include any kind of permanent change or decision) is a bit different and I'd be curious to know why some feel that way.
Honestly, I don’t know enough about the topic to give an educated opinion. On the surface, at least, I am fully on board with therapy and psychiatric services for all children. I don’t know enough about puberty blockers to give an educated opinion but I wouldn’t be surprised if I was against it.
My point was more about how people with “both sider” or “centrist” opinions are always attacked on these boards. I don’t see why someone couldn’t be supportive of adults making life-altering decisions over their lives and hesitant about children making life-altering decisions about their lives.
Honestly, I don’t know enough about the topic to give an educated opinion. On the surface, at least, I am fully on board with therapy and psychiatric services for all children. I don’t know enough about puberty blockers to give an educated opinion but I wouldn’t be surprised if I was against it.
My point was more about how people with “both sider” or “centrist” opinions are always attacked on these boards. I don’t see why someone couldn’t be supportive of adults making life-altering decisions over their lives and hesitant about children making life-altering decisions about their lives.
What specific "life-altering decisions" are you referring to here? What do you believe is happening to children and how old do you think they are when it is happening??
Post by xfinitypass on Aug 27, 2023 15:56:16 GMT -5
I don't really get how pointing out that there should be more precautions taken regarding the decisions of under 14 children than adults (which there clearly are already, I'm not arguing there aren't, my initial point was just "I get why people would be more concerned over children making these choices than adults"), makes me centrist on the issue. Maybe it appears centrist in a far left echo chamber, but the position of defending the right to whatever sort of treatment they want for all 14+ trans people, maintaining the current levels of precautions taken regarding such treatment for children, and even introducing ways for doctors to override the wishes of anti-trans parents and provide proper intervention to trans children under 14 if it is abundantly evident it's needed is a leftist position, and you're out of touch with reality if you think it's a moderate position.
Honestly, I don’t know enough about the topic to give an educated opinion. On the surface, at least, I am fully on board with therapy and psychiatric services for all children. I don’t know enough about puberty blockers to give an educated opinion but I wouldn’t be surprised if I was against it.
My point was more about how people with “both sider” or “centrist” opinions are always attacked on these boards. I don’t see why someone couldn’t be supportive of adults making life-altering decisions over their lives and hesitant about children making life-altering decisions about their lives.
What specific "life-altering decisions" are you referring to here? What do you believe is happening to children and how old do you think they are when it is happening??
I know that it’s in rare cases that anything beyond therapy is happening, but puberty blockers are probably the most common medication administered if anything. They’d be given just after the initial onset of puberty so around 10-14. And in very rare instances there is top surgery or genital reassignment surgeries but I think that’s like 16 at the youngest?
1. Nobody is suggesting that 12 year olds should have GRS. I can't imagine that being a thing anywhere.
2. There's perfectly legit reasons for cis kids 10-14 having blockers and nobody questions that.
3. As stated, these Christian right wing nut jobs don't want trans people to exist at all. Being all Helen Lovejoy about the matter makes a ton of people who question their gender do nothing about it. These people don't care about the consequences of that. Or the consequences of anything beyond having Christian asses in pews and the US military.
For example, can you site specific checks for drugs for children that are not in place? Nobody is talking about how we have rigorous testing for all drugs, even the ones for adults.
Not commenting on the larger issue you all are discussing, but would like it noted that prescriptions drugs, even the ones prescribed frequently to children, are very rarely tested on children at all prior to being prescribed to children. That is why there are so many black box warnings for medications being prescribed to young bodies and brains. We have no idea how they affect the developing brain and body and have found that some that are regularly doled out to kids cause huge problems.
We're all a mess of paradoxes. Believing in things we know can't be true. We walk around carrying feelings too complicated and contradictory to express. But when it all becomes too big, and words aren't enough to help get it all out, there's always music.
1. Nobody is suggesting that 12 year olds should have GRS. I can't imagine that being a thing anywhere.
I personally wouldn't have a problem if they did, so long as extreme medical and therapeutic due diligence was done beforehand to make sure it's the right decision for the child, given that child doesn't have the capacity to make that sort of choice solely by themselves. I'm just trying to say it's important to have a very high bar for protecting children's right, both in giving them access to trans healthcare if it's necessary (even if their parents are against it), and not rushing into such a serious decision (which doesn't seem to be happening much at all to begin with).
