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Why not just bring us all to heaven now then?? what is the point of all this then. i just dont get it, never will, but moer power to those who do. Not my bag.
Let me add that Jesus was and was not a common name. The name Jesus did not exist in Judaism. It is the Greek translation of Jeshua (Yeshua) which in English is Joshua, a very common name. Jesus' real name was equivalent to Joshua but the Greek, Jesus, quickly became too ingrained in Christianity to be changed.
Heaven is #1, an idea thought up many years ago to make feel better about dying, and #2, along with Hell (which i also DO NOT believe in), a scare tactic to make people either live A) a good 'moral' life, or B) to make people go to church and give up your money
I, live a good moral life without religion making me. I can do that without religion. And i have come to accept that when you die, you are dead. No magical vacation resort in the sky, you are just dead. Its sucks for us that we are such intelligent organisms to have these thoughts, and have to make up that comfort. Is there a grass heaven, or a mesquito heaven? Perhaps a tree heaven. They are all organisms that live and die, but those organisms are not intelligent enought to live their lifes to prepare for death and the possibility of an afterlife. Its not our fault, but im not going to live my life in a fantasy of living forever. I think you can enjoy the moments of life more if you accept that.
This is my last post here as a messgeboard is the worst place to discuss complex subjects. I'd love to talk to you a B-roo, Mikede. You sound like me 15 years ago. I'll just say a few things.
I LOVE talking religion/philosophy as intelligent discussion can only teach you. If your ideas are not strong enough to stand up to analysis, you need to re-examine them.
As for the afterlife, I think we make our own heaven and /or hell. If you are a sick, hateful, miserable person in this life, why would you be different afterwards. If you are happy and content here, it continues.
As for science and religion, it is folly to try and use faith to prove science (creationism) and to use science to prove issues of faith. Only in religion do we do this. Do we try to scientifically prove that Mozart was a great composer, or Rembrandt a great painter, or Shakespeare a great playwright. You'd be an idiot to try but we do it with religion.
We live with and accept separate spheres of existence every day (rational, emotional, artistic). I find no problem with doing this as a research scientist and a Christian. I just ask a lot of annoying questions.
Post by steveternal on Mar 6, 2007 18:39:00 GMT -5
Rather than just tiptoe around, I should come out and say this one thing: I am a devout, practicing Christian, of the Eastern Orthodox tradition. I am fairly conservative, ethically/philosophically/politically, but by the standards of the Bonnaroo community you could chalk me up as very conservative. I'll leave it there without really getting into examples, as that's not necessary here.
Christians and Christianity are demonized in many parts of our current culture, and the most obvious reasons are 1) a backlash to the prevalence of Christianity in previous generations and in our culture's history, 2) small, destructive factions of the faith that promote often aggressive, hateful or even violent beliefs which are, for whatever reason, treated as representative of the faith on the whole, and 3) basic minconceptions by non-Christian of Christianity, particularly its fundamental doctrines and its history. In this thread I've already seen examples of all three.
The Christian faith, in its proper form, is a terribly complex belief system. It's tempting to boil it down to something like "Love God and be nice, go to heaven. Don't love God, go to hell." Many people think Christianity is a woefully faulty, archaic and impractical religion because of that, and taking above statement as truth I would wholeheartedly agree. But there's the crux, because there is a tremendous amount going on between, alongside and in place of that simple statement. Thousands of books worth, thousands of years worth.
And one more, specific clarification: The concept of heaven and hell as physical places, or destinations, is a relatively current concept for Christianity. For the first 1500 years or so (roughly up until the Reformation) the Christian doctrine was that after our earthly death all people are swept into the presence of God, and that God's presence is like pure radiating energy and light. However the way we live on earth and the way in which we grow in our relationship with God determines how we can deal with his overwhelming presence. If we have learned to love him and thrive in him, then his light and energy are comforting to us (heaven). If we have not, then this light and energy are not wanted, to the point of pain and discomfort (hell). So the big difference is that God does not cast us into one box or the other, but rather we resign ourselves to how we are accustomed to our afterlife environment. This doctrine is still held by Orthodox Christians, and thus it's what I believe.
But after all that soapboxing, I really do agree with troo, that this board is by no means the type of place to try and dig into a big discussion. I hope no one minds me saying what I did here, I still enjoy this board and I enjoy thoughtful discourse.
^^I think you mean James Cameron. Although if the documentary were financed by Cameron Crowe, it would no doubt have a kick ass soundtrack .
To answer your question though, I've heard of it. Don't think it will make a lick of difference given the BCC ran a documentary on the same issue a decade earlier and pretty much all the archeologists in Israel, Christian or otherwise, discredit the claim as largely baseless. It's always fun to see who gets huffy about these things though isn't it?
And let's not forget that the greatest weapons man has created were not created using the bible, they were created using science. Just as the Bible is susceptible to misuse, science could equally be blamed for pretty much all of the world's woes (global warming, warfare, genetic mutations in plant life). But then, it's not science that's evil but the misuse of it.
Also, I'd just like to point out that theologically sound Christianity teaches that jugdment is left to the Lord and not a concern of man. The only concern of man is to love God above all things and the manifestation of that love is loving others as yourself. For the record, I consider myself a believer in Christ, but not a Christian. I could not claim to be a true follower of Christ's words. That would be hypocritical to say the least. But I do believe in the message and divinity of Christ.
all of those weapons were developed as part of waging one religous war after another, for thousands of years. and global warming is a result of government and big business. and religion is government and big business come together. we could be using science to handle all of the global warming issues but its a no go because of the church/government. we could also be curing alot of horrible diseases if the church/government werent calling the shots. but i do agree that genetic modification is horrible. we definitely dont have enough knowledge about what were are doing to be changing things like that. i dont beleive there is a god and it makes me happy. but scientists are trying to be god and that is scary as hell.
Last Edit: Mar 6, 2007 22:06:47 GMT -5 by Dude - Back to Top
Post by oatmealschnappz on Mar 6, 2007 22:35:56 GMT -5
Without getting bogged-down in the inevitably pointless and inflamatory bullsh*t that ALWAYS follows and consumes every religious discussion, I will say this: "I don't even believe in Jeebus!"
I believe whole-heartedly in science and evolution, which is somewhat counter-intuitive to Catholic beliefs. I think I would like for there to be a higher power, just cannot quite believe it currently. It's a weird situation, I don't really believe in God all that much, but I am pretty sure I believe in Jesus and most of the things he did. Which doesn't make sense, because I know they are supposed to be one in the same.
As far as what I don't believe: -Creationism--no possible way I can belive that the earth is only around 12k years old, just does not work for me in any possible way.
I, too, was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools. And I'm even Confirmed. I now consider myself Agnostic. I'm spiritual, but not religious. I was taught Evolution in Catholic schools and it is not at all counter-intuitive to Catholicism. That's one thing I respect Catholics about is that they can take the Bible figuratively and not literally. Catholics can reconcile the two beliefs. They believe God was just working through Evolution.
That's why I just don't get Creationism. I think it's really close minded to believe a fairy tale over science and call it religion and faith. I was just delivered a crushing blow when my Anatomy and Physiology teacher (in COLLEGE!!!) told me he's a Creationist. He even mentioned the dreaded term "Creation Science" Please. That is such a contradiction in terms. Creationism is just the one religious belief I cannot respect.
If you whittle almost any religion down to it's basics it's just about being nice to people, which is something that a lot of Christians don't do. But that's what I believe in. Just be nice and it's all good. That's what Jesus was all about. I guess I believe in Karma more than anything.
Post by barryzuckercorn on Mar 6, 2007 23:16:20 GMT -5
coulbean said:
barryzuckercorn said:
I believe whole-heartedly in science and evolution, which is somewhat counter-intuitive to Catholic beliefs. I think I would like for there to be a higher power, just cannot quite believe it currently. It's a weird situation, I don't really believe in God all that much, but I am pretty sure I believe in Jesus and most of the things he did. Which doesn't make sense, because I know they are supposed to be one in the same.
As far as what I don't believe: -Creationism--no possible way I can belive that the earth is only around 12k years old, just does not work for me in any possible way.
I, too, was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools. And I'm even Confirmed. I now consider myself Agnostic. I'm spiritual, but not religious. I was taught Evolution in Catholic schools and it is not at all counter-intuitive to Catholicism. That's one thing I respect Catholics about is that they can take the Bible figuratively and not literally. Catholics can reconcile the two beliefs. They believe God was just working through Evolution.
That's why I just don't get Creationism. I think it's really close minded to believe a fairy tale over science and call it religion and faith. I was just delivered a crushing blow when my Anatomy and Physiology teacher (in COLLEGE!!!) told me he's a Creationist. He even mentioned the dreaded term "Creation Science" Please. That is such a contradiction in terms. Creationism is just the one religious belief I cannot respect.
If you whittle almost any religion down to it's basics it's just about being nice to people, which is something that a lot of Christians don't do. But that's what I believe in. Just be nice and it's all good. That's what Jesus was all about. I guess I believe in Karma more than anything.
I suppose I shouldn't have said Catholic, because I even had religion teachers in highschool who believed in evolution. Karma to you for having to deal with the anatomy and phys teacher who believes in creationism. Honestly it kinda scares me when people believe in it. Whether or not you want to believe in evolution, there are mountains of evidence to disprove the idea that the earth is only 12k years old.
I was dating this girl once who was a strict Creationist but I had to break it off. Which is unfortunate because she was amazing and pretty much everything I wanted in a girl, but the Creationism bothered me (plus she tried to push it on me a bit), I simply had trouble respecting that belief of hers.
I know 2 people (the girl mentioned above) and another girl who are actually majoring in Biology in an attempt to disprove evolution...now that just doesn't make any sense to me.
I think only the whackiest of the extreme right try to claim that the earth is only 12k years old, there is nothing in the Bible or regular Christian doctrine that details the exact chronology from creation to the present.
I'm not necessarily a Creationist; if I were forced, I would probably choose Evolution, but to be precise I have no official conclusion (because it's not a decisive point). However it is well worth noting that there are many brilliant scientific minds that oppose evolution, and not from a religious standpoint. For starters, read Darwin on Trial by Phillip E. Johnson, or Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe.
Just because fundamentalist Christians push the idea that evolution is false does not mean that non-Christians should neglect the fact that it continues to be an unproven theory in order to push back. That's all I'm trying to say.
i have a freind that argued that dinosaurs arent real because they arent mentioned in the bible. he thinks all the fossils were planted as a conspiracy to disprove the bible. this was years ago and i dont know if he still buys into that crap. after that we decided to never talk about religion ever again. crazy thing is hes a smart person. hates bush, hates the war, hates big oil and pollution but yet dosent believe in dinos. its a sad and scary thing when someone is brainwashed from birth.
^If the Earth is any old than that, they have to try an explain dinosaurs and their omission from the bible.....and that's a tough one!
To play devil's advocate, not really. There aren't a whole lot of animals specifically mentioned in the Old Testament. And beyond that, much of the action takes place in a relatively small area of the world, so animal species would be inherently limited to those indigneous to the region.
However, I agree. Creationist Christians don't tend to do very well with fossil records. But then some scientists like to act as is fossil records are anywhere near complete.
Post by jimmyjamesx5 on Mar 7, 2007 0:39:59 GMT -5
dinosausrs aka Jesus horses, really only exist in your mind, just kidding, yeah i was taught all that bullshit "catholiscicm or whatever i don't care a spelled it wrong, Jesus good message but then you are always gonna have people trying to cash in on other peoples ignorence especially when it comes to religion, sure it gives hope to some people but in the long run look at how many people died for thier faith or attacked another faith because their faith said that faith was evil
sure it gives hope to some people but in the long run look at how many people died for thier faith or attacked another faith because their faith said that faith was evil
Isn't this the exact same argument the religious right used against rock music in the 80s?
Post by chicagorooer on Mar 7, 2007 1:01:54 GMT -5
The truth is the majority of christians are loving caring helpful people. The church donates millions upon millions of $$$ to help the suffering and the poor. If u are really down on your luck does hollywood or tom crusie types open their doors to feed, cloth and shelter u. I live in downtown chicago and the church does most of the work to help the homeless and give kids presents on christmas. IMO that is what religion is all about helping others and coming together to say yes there is a higher power and I am thankful for all my blessings each and everyday. I don't see how anybody wouldn't support or want to be a part of this. Not saying u have to be christian but let's not forget to point out all the good they really do that is taken for granted by most. Sure every single religion or social group has politics and will try to "skew" things their way. Most christians I know don't pay attention to all that crap. I believe Jesus was my savior and I am happy about this.
"If you don't believe in anything you'll fall for everything"
Post by oatmealschnappz on Mar 7, 2007 2:07:46 GMT -5
^ I don't want to start anything but, I don't believe that the majority of christians are the loving, caring people that you speak of. Yes, true Christians are the embodiment of loving and acceptance but, I just don't believe that these people are the ones who make-up the bulk of the organized church. It seems to me that the big (damn near corporate) churches tend to advocate a judgmental isolationalism that, I believe, Jesus would reject. You're right about Tom (crazy-ass) Cruise not showing-up to help families in need but, you can't ignore the fact that it's the religious right who repeatedly advocate and support the political policies(medi-care, social-security and minnimum-wage stagnation) that inevitably screw the lower class. As far as people providing toys to needy children on Christmas, That is primarily done by non-religious groups (at least when it comes to non-christian households) like the "Toys For Tots" program. I firmly believe that the majoity of people exerting truly Christian beliefs/actions are not practicing members of the modernly, absolutist bastardization of the once holy and ideal scripture. It's sadly become a corrupt and morally elitist social club. I whole-heartedly agree that religion, in any form, should be about charity and compassion...but it, all too often, seems to be used as a exsistential reward for social conformity and political allegiance. I believe in love and caring and honesty.....no matter how anyone else feels about political or social "hot-topics". My God doesn't care how you feel about topical issues or how you vote, he only cares about what kind of person you are. I feel that i'm a genuinely good person but, according to modern-day Christian rhetoric, i'm eternally damned.....and worse, not worthy of help or even consideration. Judge lest ye not be judged?
Religion is, not only the opiate of the masses, it WILL be the downfall of mankind!
Post by oatmealschnappz on Mar 7, 2007 2:14:45 GMT -5
^ I'll take all of the smiting that you want to give regarding this thread. I just feel very strongly about the fact that we, as a people, don't need to conform to social and idealistic standards in order to qualify as "good" or "moral" people. Organized religion has caused much more pain and strife to mankind, as a whole, than anyone being secularly decent ever will.
Last Edit: Mar 7, 2007 2:15:46 GMT -5 by oatmealschnappz - Back to Top
i dont like the guy. but i bet tom cruise has given more to charity then everyone on inforoo put together times a hundered. hes a nut ill give you that. but he dosent seem to be harming anyone anymore then other religions do with brainwashing people with some crazy idiology. and im yet to see a war started by scientologists.
Post by oatmealschnappz on Mar 7, 2007 2:18:49 GMT -5
dudewhersmyinforoo said:
i dont like the guy. but i bet tom cruise has given more to charity then everyone on inforoo put together times a hundered. hes a nut ill give you that. but he dosent seem to be harming anyone anymore then other religions do with brainwashing people with some crazy idiology. and im yet to see a war started by scientologists.
Post by chicagorooer on Mar 7, 2007 2:34:41 GMT -5
I have yet to meet any christians who have started a war either. I have been going to church for 25 years and my dad and mom for 60. They never met anybody at church who started a war. I hardly call teaching people about god brainwashing .....By stating somebody is being brainwashed means they arent making up their own mind. That is surely false. Those who go to church and study the bible have vasts amounts of knowledge and have more insight on religion and what it means than a person who has no idea what the inside of a church looks like or who has never read a religious book. each and everyday they are practicing there religion. I for one would rather have a society that is "brainwashed" by church then the brainwashing the main stream media is giving our culture.....If church brainwashes my kids to love each other help the poor and support the community i am all for it. so many people bash the church but turn a blind eye to the medias brainwashing and rewarding bad behavior such as the likes of paris hilton
well i stay completely away from mainstream media the same as i do religion. i agree its horrible. and as for teaching your kids to love each other, help the poor, and support the community, i dont need a church to tell me how to do that. any decent human being does that naturally. you dont have to buy into the magic guy in the sky that will send ya to hell if you dont give him money theory. and usually the kids are getting home from church and running up to their room to listen to eminem and play grand theft auto while watching the simple life. so i dont know if the church has anything at all to do with exposure to mainstream media. and being taught something as fact from the day you were born is brainwashing. if i taught my kid that 4+4 = 27 from the day he was born. and told him that if he didnt beleive that he would burn in hell while his family was off in heaven living it up all disapointed in him hed probably beleive it. and nevermind what those teachers tell you. they are heathens. its all in the bible.
sure the churches do some things. but in the end its an inefficient way to convert money into charity. most of it ends up in building a mansion of a church and a nice house, cars, boats, etc.. for those involved.
and everyone in every one of those churches that voted for or donated to bush, or the church donated money to bush has started a war.
Post by chicagorooer on Mar 7, 2007 2:53:58 GMT -5
^^^ organized religion is not for everyone and that is cool but many get the us VS them complex. Just b/c u don't care for religion doesn't mean others can't find direction and embrace all the wonderful things coming to together in prayer can offer. I don't know what church u every gone to but i have never been told to give $$ or don't go to heaven that is a sterotype of christianity. Giving money to your local church is a great way to keep money in your area and help your community very efficient and effective compared to the big charities such as the red cross
as far as anybody who goes to church or donates $$ and people who voted for BUSH starting the war I won't even give that illogical thought anytime. That just shows a deep underline hatred for the president and people of faith to say they started a war. How about if u pay taxes your money helped fund the war. Plus we never started this war but u can be assured we will finish it!!
Plus we never started this war but u can be assured we will finish it!!
these colors dont run!! we will get them dead or alive!!! yeee haw!!!!!!!
and it becomes us and them because the religous people insist on making it that way. they dont want to have abortions so no one can. if you dont like stem cell research then dont use the medecines that come from it to save your life, dont screw it up for the rest of us. if you dont want to be in a homosexual marriage then dont marry to the same sex. if you dont want your kids to learn about global warming and evoloution then send them to bible school. dont waste my kids time talking about fantasy as though its something that should be taught. and let my kid have access to free condoms. that way an abortion wont ever be needed and he wont get some horrible disease. there are so many issues. id be perfectly happy to just lead seperate and happy existences all doing what we believe. but the churchs wont have it that way.
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