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Post by chicagorooer on Mar 7, 2007 3:06:58 GMT -5
DUDE u should read BILL o'reillys culture war. U may not like him but the book is about secular progressives and tradional values.
I don't want to get into an abortation discussion but how far have we really come if u make a bad decision get knocked up and say screw it let's scrape this thing out of me. Adoption is the way to go b/c the kid lives and the mom and dad is free to f%ck up again. If u believe in evolution what other animal kills it's baby before it's born on purpose ....
Post by oatmealschnappz on Mar 7, 2007 3:07:01 GMT -5
I've never met ANYONE who, themselves, have started any war. Organized religion does, however, promote social war. They tell their followers that the "other side" is wrong, encouraging people to actively convert (and by extension defeat) others. I attended christian churches for almost 20 years, i've read the bible at least 10 times...and I haven honestly and independently decided that it is, both flawed (as no religious text can be, as I understand it), and not for me. Teaching people about what anyone calls God can, in fact, be brainwashing. All you have to do is consider David Koresh, Sum Yung Moon, Anton LeVay, Jim Jones or Jack Van Impe....and you will undoubtedly understand that organized relgion can be a very bad thing. Teaching love by-way of any religious doctrine tends to cause arbritary "norms" and unjust discrimination, in an endless and obligatory attempt to regulate how society "should be". If you teach anything by exclusion or degradation, you are (in the big picture)teaching hatred. The one basic, and most disregarded law of the bible is "JUDGE LEST YE NOT BE JUDGED!". Most organized christians, however, seem to think that it's their devine mission to change (mentally conquer) everyone who believes differently. Jesus advocated people "witnessing", not crusading! Even if "they" are wrong...God, not me, will admonish them. Right? People who are open and accepting to any new approach or outlook on "everyting" are, in my opinion, truly utilizing the gifts that God gave us (the most advanced computer that will ever be CREATED: the human brain) don't just spout-off the the mundane, thoughtless "talking points" handed down by some self-righteous human. < The pinnacle of evil, according to the gosdpel!
my computer would like to challenge your "advanced computer brain" to a math contest. or chess, checkers, connect four etc... or fly a stealth bomber. those things wont even fly without computer because a human brain cant make the calulations and react quickly enough to keep it in the air.
Post by chicagorooer on Mar 7, 2007 3:14:15 GMT -5
oatmealschnappz lot's of generalizing of a certain people and sterotyping. If this was a racial discussion u might be called a racists. No offense to u at all just conversating here.
I never tried to convert anybody and the pope and priests are against all forms of war. they promote peace.
Post by oatmealschnappz on Mar 7, 2007 3:15:29 GMT -5
According to every religious text that i've ever read, ALL creators kill their followers. Sometimes it's for working on Sunday, sometimes it's for eating pork, sometimes it's for approaching a woman during her menstrual cycle and sometimes it's for dishonoring your parents (even if the beat and molest you). Is it all in the timing? Or is it all a matter of perspective? Is either better than the other?
the pope and priests are against all forms of war. they promote peace.
the pope was in the hitler youth.
and lets not forget the scary amount of preists that have been molesting children. the church is one of the most unsafe places to entrust your children to. they have the ultimate guilt trip into keeping them from telling too. youll burn in hell!
Post by oatmealschnappz on Mar 7, 2007 3:19:19 GMT -5
chicagorooer said:
oatmealschnappz lot's of generalizing of a certain people and sterotyping. If this was a racial discussion u might be called a racists. No offense to u at all just conversating here.
I never tried to convert anybody and the pope and priests are against all forms of war. they promote peace.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that a large part of organized christianity is not predicated on stereotyping and judging people on a much more stringant basis? If so, you really need to pay more attention in church.
Post by oatmealschnappz on Mar 7, 2007 3:20:45 GMT -5
dudewhersmyinforoo said:
chicagorooer said:
the pope and priests are against all forms of war. they promote peace.
the pope was in the hitler youth.
and lets not forget the scary amount of preists that have been molesting children. the church is one of the most unsafe places to entrust your children to. they have the ultimate guilt trip into keeping them from telling too. youll burn in hell!
...and exactly! A Nazi, by belief or by conformity. What's the difference in the end? My God wouldn't see any.
Post by chicagorooer on Mar 7, 2007 3:21:12 GMT -5
dudewhersmyinforoo said:
chicagorooer said:
the pope and priests are against all forms of war. they promote peace.
the pope was in the hitler youth.
If what u say is true I have never heard it but if u know anything about the hitler youth. These kids didn;t volunteer. they didn'y sign Up!!! they were forced and were the last ditch effort of the nazi's...........this has no bearing on if the pope teaches peace which he does!!
well it was legally required for him to join the hitler youth. and by all accounts he wasnt happy about it. but he was 14. you have to draw the line somewhere. if they are forcing me to partake and suuport in genocide then i would have had no part. illegal or not. id leave and join a resistance. everyone has a choice.
Post by oatmealschnappz on Mar 7, 2007 3:29:46 GMT -5
chicagorooer said:
no oatmeal I am saying u are generalizing an entire people.
Last post, for real. Organized christians(other religions too) not only generalize but, damn millions of people daily based simply on the fact that they don't see things the exact same way that the church does. Disagree with me......and that's fine and dandy. Disagree with them.......and you are subject to scorn and ridicule and eternal damnation!
Like I/the bible said....JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED!
That one sentence says it all. I'm really done now.
Peace and happiness to everyone on in any path they chose.
Last Edit: Mar 7, 2007 3:33:23 GMT -5 by oatmealschnappz - Back to Top
^^ if u left u would have been killed it's that simple
well i would rather die for what i believe is right and not kill another innocent family because of what they believe. its not worth my survival for that. and im not even religious. i dont have the whole after life ramifications to worry about. participating in hitlers war machine in any way for any reason seems like it would be an express ticket to hell in the religous belief system. but apparently its ok for a pope. not to mention youll go fight in a war and likely die for something your against anyways. like i said id join a resistance movement and likely die fighting them when they came to kill me. but at least id die for something i beleived in.
If what u say is true I have never heard it but if u know anything about the hitler youth. These kids didn;t volunteer. they didn'y sign Up!!! they were forced and were the last ditch effort of the nazi's...........this has no bearing on if the pope teaches peace which he does!!
the pope saw more time in the military then george bush did. its odd that most christians dont have a clue about their leadership. or even the bible for that matter. it seems for most its just something you do because it something you do. seems they just pick and choose the convienient parts and it makes them feel good. its really crazy to watch from an outside perspective. ill never understand it.
Post by oatmealschnappz on Mar 7, 2007 3:48:27 GMT -5
dudewhersmyinforoo said:
chicagorooer said:
If what u say is true I have never heard it but if u know anything about the hitler youth. These kids didn;t volunteer. they didn'y sign Up!!! they were forced and were the last ditch effort of the nazi's...........this has no bearing on if the pope teaches peace which he does!!
its odd that most christians dont have a clue about their leadership. or even the bible for that matter. it seems for most its just something you do because it something you do. the pope saw more time in the military then george bush did. seems they just pick and choose the convienient parts and it makes them feel good. its really crazy to watch from an outside perspective. ill never understand it.
Well said. I owe you Karma for that.
Last Edit: Mar 7, 2007 3:49:33 GMT -5 by oatmealschnappz - Back to Top
Post by melikecheese on Mar 7, 2007 9:50:04 GMT -5
barryzuckercorn said:
melikecheese said:
Christians don't believe anything that goes against the little bible book. Sure they believe all the crap in that book but dear god they open there minds to anything else. The bible reads like a Harry Potter book, religion is stupid.
Hey I take offense to that. I'm Christian, not exactly practicing, as I don't really know what I believe in anymore, but Christian none-the-less. I however do believe I am rather open minded, as I don't even believe a lot of what is in that book. You are over-generalizing. My mom is a Christian and believes in "the little bible book" but she is not close minded by any means. I think you need to think a little bit longer before you're simply going to attack people for a belief system.
sorry bro, I was targeting this toward the right wing evangelicals. Everyone has the right to believe or not believe in anything they wish. I support the idea of believing.
Post by chicagorooer on Mar 7, 2007 10:12:38 GMT -5
DUDE "if" the pope was in the hitler youth. U said if u were him u would have joined the resitance. I guess at 14 years old he had the capacity to join a resistance movement and should die. Sorry at 14 u don't think like that. I guess the Jews should have joined the resistance as well. Ohh I guess they would have rather been locked up in camps!! Dude u need to get a clue about the true scope of the nazi regime before u make it seem like it was so easy to join a resistance group. espcially at 14
Glad to see u know so much about christians and spend so much time on a religion. U are the one saying I shouldn't love the pope b/c he was in a hitler youth camp. Then have the balls to say hey if he was so holy he should have just left. U know take the next bus out of town..hmm For something u have no use for u sure like to bring a lot of negatives. U speak as if u know more than my local pastor!!!
Oaltmeal I think it's funny u say disaggree w/ me and it's cool. Disaggree w/ the church and get problems. guess what I am a christian disaggree w/ me and it's cool. So u are generalizing and lumping a way an entire people think and act this is called sterotyping and like I said earlier if this was aracial discussion that would be a racists comment.
Post by steveternal on Mar 7, 2007 10:15:57 GMT -5
dudewhersmyinforoo said:
chicagorooer said:
If what u say is true I have never heard it but if u know anything about the hitler youth. These kids didn;t volunteer. they didn'y sign Up!!! they were forced and were the last ditch effort of the nazi's...........this has no bearing on if the pope teaches peace which he does!!
the pope saw more time in the military then george bush did. its odd that most christians dont have a clue about their leadership. or even the bible for that matter. it seems for most its just something you do because it something you do. seems they just pick and choose the convienient parts and it makes them feel good. its really crazy to watch from an outside perspective. ill never understand it.
OK, two things:
1) Re: the Pope and all, how can you possibly look down on him and his decision, saying that you would never have gone that way, when you've never been in that position? For crying out loud, just admit you want something to dislike about him because he's a religious authority (two things you are known to despise). In all honesty I can't believe that you can possibly know well enough what it would really be like at that time in that country with those options and that choice. You very well might stick to your convictions and allow yourself to die, but I seriously doubt it.
2) "its odd that most christians dont have a clue about their leadership. or even the bible for that matter. it seems for most its just something you do because it something you do." I can't emphasize enough how ignorant statements like this are. The only Christians I've known that were uninformed about those types of things have ended up leaving the church. Each and every practicing Christian I know does at least some level of studying scripture, other religious texts and current information about the church (i.e. publications), and for that very reason: because it is their faith, and they need to be informed of their faith in order to truly own it. Surely there are many who were taught Christianity growing up and do it just because they always did, I am by no means denying that people like that exist. But seriously it is a very unfair stereotype that vast majority of believers are like that. In fact the vast majority are constantly working on being more educated about the faith they profess.
And you might realize that both the above points have to do with judging: judging a person's actions in a particular moment, or judging a person's attitude in a lifetime. If you believe it is important for Christians not to judge others, then judge them, that line of thought seems quite inconsistent to me. So I would encourage you to re-think that.
"Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youth (a paramilitary organization of the Nazi Party) — membership being legally required after December 1939[2] — but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings[citation needed]. His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, believing it conflicted with the Catholic faith[citation needed]. In 1941, one of Ratzinger's cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was killed by the Nazi regime in its campaign of eugenics[citation needed]. In 1943 while still in seminary, he was drafted at age 16 into the German anti-aircraft corps. Ratzinger then trained in the German infantry, but a subsequent illness precluded him from the usual rigours of military duty[citation needed]. As the Allied front drew closer to his post in 1945, he deserted back to his family's home in Traunstein after his unit had ceased to exist[citation needed], just as American troops established their headquarters in the Ratzinger household. As a German soldier, he was put in a POW camp but was released a few months later at the end of the War in summer 1945. He reentered the seminary, along with his brother Georg, in November of that year."
Sounds like he didn't want to be a member to me, like a significant segment of the German population at the time.
Post by barryzuckercorn on Mar 7, 2007 11:33:21 GMT -5
I second the locking of the thread. I kinda started it off, and would like to help end it, it's gotten too far. I thought you were all supposed to be hippies, what happened to all the love?
Karma to you lowend for bringing up pterodactyls in the bible...just imagine if Moses had released a pterodactyl off of the ark, he wouldn't have brought back an olive branch...it woulda brought back a baby cow.
why should the thread be locked. If this is not the place for this discussion, than what the hell is a good place for it This is a GREAT place for it. i say lets keep it going. No reason to lock it
Thanks for that explaination. Oddly enough, most of that are my views too minus a couple of things, but i consider myself Athiest.
You're welcome for the explination. I have been accused of being an Athiest in the recent past. I like to think that I'm more agnostic.
What are the things that you leave out of your beliefs from mine?[/quote]
Your first point, the fact that religion is where your moral base came from. For me, i think you can embrace those things naturally as a human, without having to have religion behind it basically making you do it, or you will burn in hell with the devil. I dont need a scare tactict to be a good person, i think i am a good person. Its not like i go 'Hey, i dont believe in hell, so i can do all these bad things and not have to worry about it going to hell' I dotn do 'bad things' because its wrong, and not because religion told me it was.
I am not one to say that the man Jesus did not exist. Im sure he did. All the miracle surrounding his birth, the virgin mary and all that stuf i do not believe in, but he probably did live,and he probably did have the following that was made what it was today. But the only son of God stuff is a little far fetched for me. In todays world, if some dude or chick got on TV, and said he or she was God's second son, or only daughter, and to follow their religious teachings, we would think they are nuts, and probably think they are a cult leader or something. So, shoot me if you will, and smite me if you must, but it seems to come down to Jesus was a cult leader. And some still follow him, 2000 years later. I guess you could call it the most sucessful cult ever. If he only knew.
So Barry, i guess it seems the only part we really differ is you cant seem to give up what you were raised to believe. Which is funny cause thats what was the turning point for me. (other than the whole fantasy thing) The fact that it was shoved in my head as a child, the fact that i had no choice but to believe, and the fact that when i first started doubting i felt bad for opening my mind to another possibility. That got to me most of all.
Post by oatmealschnappz on Mar 7, 2007 11:49:05 GMT -5
chicagorooer said:
Oaltmeal I think it's funny u say disaggree w/ me and it's cool. Disaggree w/ the church and get problems. guess what I am a christian disaggree w/ me and it's cool. So u are generalizing and lumping a way an entire people think and act this is called sterotyping and like I said earlier if this was aracial discussion that would be a racists comment.
Good for you, if you're open-mided and accepting. The church is not that way though. It is predicated on the belief that there is one and only one "correct" way to think and live. Any people who feel different, or even dare to question what they hear, are told that they had better "get in line" or suffer the consequences. While I'm fully aware that they're are many open-minded christians out there, the organized church's bottom line is a disturbing "with us or against us" philosophy. In my opinion, no infinitely intelligent or eternally loving god could ever feel like that....nor should his/it's followers. As far as you implying that i'm some sort of pseudo-racist, that's beyond ridiculous and more than a little personally insulting. You simply can't intelligently compare race and beliefs. People are born the way that they're born, people CHOSE to accept a religious mindset. Chosing how you want to live and believe, trivializing and demonizing all who disagree, is not in any way comparable to being born into any ethnic group. That is such a grossly unintelligent and overly simplistic arguement that I can't help but think that you really have no grasp of what racism is. This isn't a racial conversation and you have no right trying to throw that bullsh*t in my face. My problem is not with you, as a person, but with the "official" party-line of organized religion. If you chose to be part of any religion, you should be able to honestly accept the social and cultural regulations of said religion without picking and chosing where to make a stand. Anything else would, by definition, be heresy. That's my fundamental problem with organized religion, as a whole. People should be free to feel how they feel, live how they live and believe how they chose to believe without reapetedly being told how horribly flawed they are. If your god has a problem with someone, i'm sure he/she/it will eventually handle it....with no need for the followers' participation beyond the "witnessing" that christianity calls for. You know, Judge not lest ye be judged?
Last Edit: Mar 7, 2007 11:51:36 GMT -5 by oatmealschnappz - Back to Top
Post by steveternal on Mar 7, 2007 12:22:20 GMT -5
I was suggesting this thread be locked because a message board really is not a great place for religious debate. The way this thread has gone, it's not just off-topic from Bonnaroo but off-spirit as well. Believe me I'm sure I have hundreds of posts worth of things to say on this subject, but I still think it's best if we all decide to drop it.
Dude u need to get a clue about the true scope of the nazi regime before u make it seem like it was so easy to join a resistance group. espcially at 14
