SiCKO

It won't though. I especially liked how he tore into Hillary Clinton for selling out to the insurance companies. I easily think this is Moore's best movie to date. He always takes on big corporations, but this movie isn't about that. It's about the human element to the whole thing. He seems more concerned about telling these people's stories than taking on the insurance and drug companies. It's very refreshing and very sad at the same time.

I'm 100% hardcore devoted to the idea/hope/prospect of national/socialized (oops, I said a bad word) healthcare but, I can't and won't tolerate Michael Moore in any way.
I firmly believe that his heart is in the right place but, he plays WAY too loose with the facts to do "us" and/or "our cause" any good.
In fact, I think that his misleading antics and half-truths are actually strengthening the radical right's argument that the left is being directed and poisoned by uninformed, corrupted, Hollywood propaganda.
When you chose to make a documentary about anything, you have the obligation to take every precaution to insure that your facts are straight and unambiguous, something that Moore seems unwilling or unable to understand or believe or practice in his films.
As soon as the "enemy" catches you in a lie, exaggeration or misdirection...you're doing more harm than good.
You actually become one of "their"weapons in the war against whatever you were attempting to defend, promote or uncover in the first place. You become a "proven liar" in their eyes and ALL of your arguments become "liberal propaganda", no matter how undeniable and irrefutable your evidence may be.
He seems to subscribe to the flawed and intolerable "the ends justify the means" philosophy.
That mindset is short-sighted, sensationalistic and ultimately destructive. It seems to me that if Moore really cared about his causes as much as he does promoting his own persona, he would be more than happy to sacrifice fame and fortune to actually try and win both sides over with the facts.
He seems perfectly content to set back and collect huge paychecks, feeding the simplisticly endless political "he said/she said" back and forth that does nothing but polarize us a country.
Because of his "methods", he is becoming the go-to-guy of the wrong side and "Achilles heel" of the right(correct, that is). He is driving devoted, intelligent, damn near socialist allies to totally disregard him and distance themselves from even his most honest and informed arguments (of which there are, indeed, many).
It just seems to me that he is more than capable of creating thought-prevoking, revolutionary and factually correct documentaries without "tweaking" any of the facts in childish attempts to make gauranteed headlines but, he repeatedly chooses sensationalistic publicity stunts instead.
However benevolent his true motivation may be, he is doing more to damage and discredit his own arguments, policies and beliefs than to educate anyone about anything.

No, I haven't seen "Sicko" yet but, I am quite familiar with all of his other films and his methodology....and that is waht I'm basing this on. If "Sicko" is different, I apologize.


Sorry for my rant but, I just can't stand Moore's pretentious, pompous, grandstanding ass.

I'm not trying to offend anyone or trivialize their points of view. I'm just trying to express mine.

(before people ask, here are some examples:
-"Roger & Me" - The destitute "GM employee" who was evicted on Christmas morning, who had never actually been an employee at any GM company (actually just a highschool friend).
-"Roger & Me" - Showing up at GM's corporate headquarters (w/ cameras) and demanding to see the CEO right then. NO company would ever allow, accomodate or agree to that kind of request or scenario.
- "Bowling For Columbine" - Leading people to believe that you could walk into that bank, open an account and instantly walk out with a rifle. While it is still a RIDICULOUS concept/promotion, no one was given a gun right then, on-site. They were given vouchers, redeemable at a later date.)


I'm not defending or condoning any of the actions, policies, ideas, beliefs or claims of his incredibly deserving targets. I just hate his methodology and execution.
Like I've already said, I agree with almost all of his concerns, stances and arguments.
I just think that he's doing more harm than good, when it comes to his tactics.

Just my opinion.


(EDIT: I am probably one of the most liberal people on this board.
That is why I feel so damn strongly about this. Anyone who tarnishes, trivializes or diminshes the things that I hold so dear is my enemy.....no matter whichbox they checked on their voter registration card.)

Sweetie,

You are 100% correct. If you are to take on any debate your facts MUST be solid or your whole arguement is open for doubt. When issues are as important as the one's MM takes on there can't be any wiggle room.

It just goes to show that no matter which side you get the information from you need to double check and find out for yourself what is true. READ!

I'll get you first. *pow* ;D

As long as our healthcare system is primarily concerned with making money, not healing, we're screwed. Single payer (socialized) medicine is the only proven solution. As far as rationing care, everyone rations healthcare. Most countries do it by need. We do it by money. And our system leads to the worst results of any industrialized country. Seems obvious we need to change.

As for Moore's playing loose with the facts, no one has shown a single fact in this movie as being incorrect.

Saw it. Liked it alot. It is very important. Sobbed on several occasions.


There was some sensationalism common to Moore's films, that, in my opinion, could have been left out for the benefit of credibility.

SEJ- I really appreciate your scrutinous eye. That is necessary for the struggle ahead of us. There is much doublespeak to be debunked, and many false martyrs to dethrone.

HOWEVER, let's not forget who brought us this movie and what he does for a living. Moore is a film maker. He makes atypical documentaries in that they often contain more comedy and human emotion than bland filmstrip type documentaries of the past. That is a large part of his success-people can sit through it without wanting to scratch their eyes out.

Does it weaken the struggle for nationalized healthcare because of it's flaws? or does it open up the eyes of SOME of the sheep because it MOVED them ?

Who else has done anything like this at all ? We don't need this movie to be without scrutiny(just or unjust) from the Rove ensemble and their cronies. We need it to get JOE WALMART to wake up and say-"Hey-my brother got denied his Post Traumatic Stress Disorder treatment, AND THAT REALLY PISSES ME OFF. I'm gonna think a little more about how I spend my money and who I let manipulate me."

We can't let the message die because we think the messenger should make a different kind of movie. I realize the rationale that says the message is dead before it even got put out cuz it was based on half truths. And, yes, the message DOES suffer for it. BUT, we are talking about it because of who Michael Moore is and the kind of movies he makes. The morons aren't slowly waking up because of documentaries like "The Corporation" (which is awesome, by the way). Most of them haven't even heard of it.

My point is that Michael Moore deserves ALOT of credit for his life's work. I believe that he is a smart man who has come to know his audience very well. I believe he is not out to get rich, but to make a change or impact with his life. He makes intelligent movies that have gotten more and more popular with the masses---and THEY are the ones electing and under the spell of such buffoonery.

Even if Moore made an undeniably accurate movie to the T, do you think O'Reilley or Limbaugh would call off the spin machine ?

This isn't a movie for inspiring the quoir. We all need sharper tools in our shed. But it goes along way in making the sheep look up and go whaaaa?

I don't think he was grandstanding at all in this movie. Fahrenheit 9-11, maybe. Not this one though. He doesn't even take on the insurance and drug companies, because that's not what's important to him in this film. What's important is the people. He tells their stories. He shows healthcare in other industrialized nations.

I for one am extremely grateful to Moore and the people that distribute his movies. These things need to be said, and the mainstream media sure as hell isn't gonna say em. I don't think Moore skews his facts so much as he over exaggerates certain aspects. I think he's right probably a good 90% of the time. Go back and watch Fahrenheit 9-11 now and you'll see just how right he was. I'd much rather him do these films how he does them, than not do them at all.

^^
Just wondering if you saw Sicko? It gives really good facts, and examples to show you why national heath care could work, and how it works really great in other countries. In fact ALL other industrialized countries have national health care .except ours, and it doesn't affect the quality of care received. All the nursing homes I have worked in were very, very expensive, the quality of care did not represent that at all, sadly.

If you haven't yet seen the movie, I'd suggest watching it. It gives you more facts and examples than I ever could. Plus Michael Moore released it on the internet (pirate bay) so you can download it if you want.

I do see what you mean about failed government organizations such as Fema, etc. But I think this is something that can work, by example of all other industrialized countries.

I have not seen SICKO - yet . Intend to do so this week. I do believe that we have to do something about overhauling health care in this country or else we are going to all pay the very dire consequences. I am one of the lucky ones with good insurance - for now. But I think this last point is the real crux of everything.....We will have to endure higher taxes for a better system....but the problems WILL NOT just fix themselves.....just govermentizing or socializing healthcare IS NOT going to fix things, not if we just leave the system as is. The VA hospitals - privitized or no - are broken! The county and not-for-profit hospitals and clinics in this country are NOT the models we want for our healthcare system....we can't just take on the model other countries have used....the US is not a Sweden or even a UK...and we have to accept that and work out probably a hybrid system...it is going to take real out-of-the-box thinking and REAL CHANGE - and probably some painful tradeoffs...something that Americans don't like.....but there it is.....

^^^ LOL! Don't know that you can spoil a docu-drama! Hee! But yes, I agree....we need to make sure that we don't lose the best parts of the system (the quick response times, the cutting edge medicines and treatments) in our overhaul to make sure that we makes those things available to EVERYONE who needs them....we don't want to end up in a medical LOTTO....that isn't good for anyone. Realistically, the quality and quantity of healthcare for everyone will suffer to some degree, at least at first, if it truly IS overhauled to the degree necessary.....but the trick is to make sure that it doesn't reach the crisis level for ANYONE....mild annoyance and inconvenience - not life or death....

On a totally light note.....was The Nightwatchman's song Alone Without You played over the closing credits of the film? ;D

Well, I live less than 100 miles from Mexico. My mother is a nurse at the largest hospital (which is private btw) in the county, which has 1 million as of last census. The vast majority of people she treats are NOT illegals. They are people like the ones in Sicko, as well as junkies and other destitue Americans. Illegals rarely seek care unless they have to, and when they do come through the hospitals the are treated and INS is called. They are deported. I'd say this is a cheaper and more humane way to handle immigration than wasting billions on impossible walls and crooked BP agents.

I ment comparativly we are undertaxed. We have far lower taxes than any other idustrialized nation. To hear Americans bitch about paying too much, or that taxes are an un-American punishment is rediculous. I agree government buerocracy and inept leaders have messed up a lot of stuff, but so has private buerocracy. Citing random examples is pointless. The point is medicine isn't a "free ride" its a basic human right. You do sound like you want everything private. No fire dept, police, schools or library's for these freeloaders. No interstates, all toll roads. Is this what you really want?

And have you even seen Sicko? his whole point isn't even about the uninsured. It's the non-freeloaders who DO pay faithfull and are then screwed by greedy corps who deny coverage to reduce the bottom line. That's the crisis! That's where gov't needs to step in and make sure the interests of the people The Gov't is supposed to serve outweigh the interests of the stockholders the corps are leaglly bound to serve.

-- edit for errors in spelling

Heres a few links to the CNN / Michael Moore feud. I think I have all the videos here, so let me know if I'm missing something:

Moore on Wolf Blitzer part 1:
Moore on Wolf Blitzer part 2:
Moore with Keith Olbermann:
Moore & Gupta on Larry King Live:
CNNs response to Michael Moore: www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/15/moore.gupta/index.html?eref=rss_topstories


And to clarify, it probably wasn't Moore who uploaded to the pirate bay, he has stated publicly that he doesn't mind people pirating his movies: www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/74666/Michael_Moore_Doesn_t_Mind_People_Pirating_His_Movies_Video_

And Bush it at it again

The NY Times reports "Bush Is Prepared to Veto Bill to Expand Child Insurance" Typical

Bush has also said he would veto HR4 - A Bill Requiring Medicare to Negotiate Lower Prescription Drug Prices

This President is a big part of the problem.


BTW, Here's a list of House Bills Bush has promised to veto (Both because he's a d#ck and because he's privately stated he want it to appear that the Dems are getting nothing done.. What a great guy!)

The College Cost Reduction Act - H.R. 2669
Homeland Security Appropriations - H.R. 2638
State-Foreign Operations Appropriations - H.R. 2764
Interior-Environment Appropriations - H.R. 2643
The Energy Price Gouging Act – H.R. 1252
The No Oil Producing and Exporting Cartels (NOPEC) Act - H.R. 2264
FY 2008 Defense Authorization Bill - H.R. 1585
FY 2008 Homeland Security Authorization - H.R. 1684
Hate Crimes Prevention Act – H.R. 1592
D.C. Voting Rights Act – H.R. 1905
Rail and Mass Transit Security Act - H.R. 1401
Presidential Records Act Amendments of 2007 - H.R. 1255
Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act of 2007 - H.R. 985
Reauthorizing Clean Water State Revolving Loan Fund - H.R. 720
Employee Free Choice Act - H.R. 800
Requiring Medicare to Negotiate Lower Prescription Drug Prices - H.R. 4