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Post by chicagorooer on Jul 17, 2007 14:31:56 GMT -5
stallion said:
It's about accountablility. Yes, I oppose the war in Iraq and don't trust Bush to handle it. At the same time I trust the folks at Blackwater who are also "handling it" EVEN LESS.
And for the record, municipal fire and police, the Interstate system, public libraries, public broadcasting, The Tennesse Valley Authority and rural electrification are all examples of public that did work. I challange you to explain to me how a for-profit corperation can be expected to take care of public health when their business charter speciffically states they are leaglly bound to only increase their shareholder value.
I'm not saying the private corps have no place in the picture. I don't want the gov't to run the pharmaceutical corps for example. But I do expect them to regulate the industry and keep prices low enough that medicine does not become a privilage of the rich. HMOs and insurance corps are another story. They have got to go. Their only job is to prevent people from receiving care to keep down the bottom line.
stallion in an earlier post I did say we proably aggree on most of this.....I don't want healthcare just to be privatized. i think the gov't can have some influence such as on pricing, ect.... I just don't want socialized medicine which is what sicko is gettting at by pointing out how great cubas health system is hahaha also moore is a socialist so this fits his theme.....I don't want gov't to run or over see healthcare. they should help influence
I challange you to explain to me how a for-profit corperation can be expected to take care of public health when their business charter speciffically states they are leaglly bound to only increase their shareholder value.
This is easy very easy......if they do a crappy job they won't have to worry about shareholders they will be out of business. By having choice I can demand good doctors clean conditions ect...or else I will take my blue cross and blue shield to another hospital.....A great example is public schools VS private...sure there are good and bad with both types....however with public schools if you live in a district that has crappy public schools your kid is screwed..u have no choice......with private school u MAy pay more sure but u can choose what school to send your child and those schools have to stay competitive or else they will be gone....the crappy public school well they just keep getting money from the gov't and churn out B.S. degrees
Post by stallion pt. 2 on Jul 17, 2007 14:50:12 GMT -5
chicagorooer said:
This is easy very easy......if they do a crappy job they won't have to worry about shareholders they will be out of business. By having choice I can demand good doctors clean conditions ect...or else I will take my blue cross and blue shield to another hospital.....A great example is public schools VS private...sure there are good and bad with both types....however with public schools if you live in a district that has crappy public schools your kid is screwed..u have no choice......with private school u MAy pay more sure but u can choose what school to send your child and those schools have to stay competitive or else they will be gone....the crappy public school well they just keep getting money from the gov't and churn out B.S. degrees
The thing is Private Schools may out perform public, but the do so b/c of exclusion. They can keep people out w/ steep tuitions, discriminate based on religion, and otherwise prevent the majority of the population from even attending. No one should be excluded from health care, and no one should have to go into debt because they get sick. That's why the Gov't must be involved. Not being able to afford anything is NOT a choice.
As for public schools sucking, it all goes back to taxes. another victim of the "taxes are a punishment" mentality that you and other conservatives espouse.
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
Post by LucyRoo & AdamToo on Jul 17, 2007 15:14:30 GMT -5
Hmmm... Michael Moore's a socialist, Cuba, Blah, Blah, Blah. Congrats! You've successfully regurgitated the latest talking points about this movie. Still haven't seen it yet, eh? Well, there's still time Chicagorooer.
Post by chicagorooer on Jul 17, 2007 15:16:42 GMT -5
lucyroo said:
Hmmm... Michael Moore's a socialist, Cuba, Blah, Blah, Blah. Congrats! You've successfully regurgitated the latest talking points about this movie. Still haven't seen it yet, eh? Well, there's still time Chicagorooer.
u are weird.....Michael moore is a socialist this is true...plus the movie did point out that cuba has better healthcare by moores logic than the U.S. ......I think u need to see the movie and grow up as well....what talking points do u keep talking about....is there a crib version of the movie???
Post by chicagorooer on Jul 17, 2007 15:21:44 GMT -5
stallion said:
chicagorooer said:
This is easy very easy......if they do a crappy job they won't have to worry about shareholders they will be out of business. By having choice I can demand good doctors clean conditions ect...or else I will take my blue cross and blue shield to another hospital.....A great example is public schools VS private...sure there are good and bad with both types....however with public schools if you live in a district that has crappy public schools your kid is screwed..u have no choice......with private school u MAy pay more sure but u can choose what school to send your child and those schools have to stay competitive or else they will be gone....the crappy public school well they just keep getting money from the gov't and churn out B.S. degrees
The thing is Private Schools may out perform public, but the do so b/c of exclusion. They can keep people out w/ steep tuitions, discriminate based on religion, and otherwise prevent the majority of the population from even attending. No one should be excluded from health care, and no one should have to go into debt because they get sick. That's why the Gov't must be involved. Not being able to afford anything is NOT a choice.
As for public schools sucking, it all goes back to taxes. another victim of the "taxes are a punishment" mentality that you and other conservatives espouse.
if you have no money to pay for your health then u should go into debt.....we all have to pay....I don;t want to have my $$$ going to some slob who doesn't work sits on the couch and eats all day...then I have to pay his BILLs...fuck that......
as far as education just pointing out if u live in a crappy district then your kids screwed.....gov't funded.......if the gov't takes control of healthcare they will tell u what doctors to see...they will tell u were to see them and u will be waiting in a big fat line..........and yes taxes suck big time
Post by stallion pt. 2 on Jul 17, 2007 15:23:51 GMT -5
I would like to point out that supporting socialized medicine does not make one a socalist. Of the 4 countries Moore examines in the film (Canada, UK, France and Cuba), all but Cuba are capitalist countries. They have strong social programs and high taxes to fund them, but this is to provide for the common good, which is something all industrialized nations should strive for. America's "I got mine you gotta get yours" mentality is quite unique among capitalist countries.
And what I got out of the whole Cuba escapade (perhaps not Moore's point exactly) was that even a backwards little island like Cuba knows the importance of providing universal health care to its people. Plus it is infuriating that Gitmo detainees have better access to medical care that I do.
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
Post by oleander124 on Jul 17, 2007 15:26:18 GMT -5
chicagorooer said:
if you have no money to pay for your health then u should go into debt.....we all have to pay....I don;t want to have my $$$ going to some slob who doesn't work sits on the couch and eats all day...then I have to pay his BILLs...fuck that......
My brother owes over $10,000 in hospital bills. He had a blood clot in his leg and they later diagnosed him with Lupus.
He doesn't sit on his ass. He doesn't eat all day. He's definitely not a slob. He works 2 jobs. The only thing he didn't do was have health insurance. Tell me how that's fair.
(edited to add: I think what you wrote is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.)
Post by stallion pt. 2 on Jul 17, 2007 15:32:24 GMT -5
chicagorooer said:
if you have no money to pay for your health then u should go into debt.....we all have to pay....I don;t want to have my $$$ going to some slob who doesn't work sits on the couch and eats all day...then I have to pay his BILLs...fuck that......
as far as education just pointing out if u live in a crappy district then your kids screwed.....gov't funded.......if the gov't takes control of healthcare they will tell u what doctors to see...they will tell u were to see them and u will be waiting in a big fat line..........and yes taxes suck big time
OK, so lets leave the poor to be uneducated, sick and w/out fire or police protection while you sit on your high horse and acuse them of beeing lazy. You're right, we all have to pay. Conservatives are so worried about "lazy slobs" and welfare moms, but don't mind spending many times more of what little we pay in taxes to give corperations welfare-style subsidies to promote "global trade" and support businesses that don't need it. If you only took away a fraction of Agribusiness and export promotion subsidies and put that towards health care, we could all have health care tommorrow. Now who's wasting your precious tax dollars.
We all have to pay the bills. Get over it. Stop f**king whining about welfare mom and realize the biggest welfare mom of all are the corperations who have bought out gov't and duped folks like you into fearing it (except when it comes to the military). Some things are beyond the profit system, and national health is one of those things. I know you only care about yourself and your family, but someday you might realize that looking out for our citizens' well-being is actually GOOD FOR YOU, too, and well worth the price. Until then, just keep conemning the poor as lazy and supporting a system that keeps them poor.
---edit for spelling and to add a conjunction for context.
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
^^^besides - ya know what sucks in all this - even if you have Health Insurance in this country - you are still basically screwed - they still tell you who you can see and what they will pay which ultimately leaves you with horrible medical bills
I have insurance and prolly owe about $10,000 in medical bills that were not covered by insurance
Post by oleander124 on Jul 17, 2007 15:37:39 GMT -5
bos1969 said:
^^^besides - ya know what sucks in all this - even if you have Health Insurance in this country - you are still basically screwed - they still tell you who you can see and what they will pay which ultimately leaves you with horrible medical bills
I have insurance and prolly owe about $10,000 in medical bills that were not covered by insurance
Exactly. I'm sure he owes more than that now. That $10,000 bill was from one hospital stay alone.
Post by stallion pt. 2 on Jul 17, 2007 15:38:28 GMT -5
^^^besides - ya know what sucks in all this - even if you have Health Insurance in this country - you are still basically screwed - they still tell you who you can see and what they will pay which ultimately leaves you with horrible medical bills
I have insurance and prolly owe about $10,000 in medical bills that were not covered by insurance
But according to Chicago, you somehow deserve this because if you can't afford it you must be too lazy. In his eyes, only the rich deserve to get sick.
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
Hmmm... Michael Moore's a socialist, Cuba, Blah, Blah, Blah. Congrats! You've successfully regurgitated the latest talking points about this movie. Still haven't seen it yet, eh? Well, there's still time Chicagorooer.
u are weird.....Michael moore is a socialist this is true...plus the movie did point out that cuba has better healthcare by moores logic than the U.S. ......I think u need to see the movie and grow up as well....what talking points do u keep talking about....is there a crib version of the movie???
Stallion- Karma for your patience and convictions. and for educating $hit stirrers everywhere. those who prefer to do so without even the benefit of a spoon !
Post by LucyRoo & AdamToo on Jul 17, 2007 18:12:17 GMT -5
Corporations WANT us to blame welfare mothers, Mexicans, and poor lazy people for the problems in our health care system, sure as hell takes the heat off of them.
karma stallion, you said it better than I ever could.
Post by chicagorooer on Jul 18, 2007 8:44:02 GMT -5
stallion said:
chicagorooer said:
if you have no money to pay for your health then u should go into debt.....we all have to pay....I don;t want to have my $$$ going to some slob who doesn't work sits on the couch and eats all day...then I have to pay his BILLs...fuck that......
as far as education just pointing out if u live in a crappy district then your kids screwed.....gov't funded.......if the gov't takes control of healthcare they will tell u what doctors to see...they will tell u were to see them and u will be waiting in a big fat line..........and yes taxes suck big time
OK, so lets leave the poor to be uneducated, sick and w/out fire or police protection while you sit on your high horse and acuse them of beeing lazy. You're right, we all have to pay. Conservatives are so worried about "lazy slobs" and welfare moms, but don't mind spending many times more of what little we pay in taxes to give corperations welfare-style subsidies to promote "global trade" and support businesses that don't need it. If you only took away a fraction of Agribusiness and export promotion subsidies and put that towards health care, we could all have health care tommorrow. Now who's wasting your precious tax dollars.
We all have to pay the bills. Get over it. Stop f**king whining about welfare mom and realize the biggest welfare mom of all are the corperations who have bought out gov't and duped folks like you into fearing it (except when it comes to the military). Some things are beyond the profit system, and national health is one of those things. I know you only care about yourself and your family, but someday you might realize that looking out for our citizens' well-being is actually GOOD FOR YOU, too, and well worth the price. Until then, just keep conemning the poor as lazy and supporting a system that keeps them poor.
---edit for spelling and to add a conjunction for context.
PIE in the sky thinking ....nothing is beyond the profit system nothing......it takes cash and people need incentive to work....In many gov't programs if u don't spend all the $$ that was allocated to you for the year then u will get less $$$ the following year....this leads to needless spending ...
If you don;t have insurance (sure price issues can be addressed and the insurance system can be modified) then u pay out your ass period.
If u don;t have car insurance and get in a wreck and owe for the rest of your life it's your fault. U as an adult need to make sure u have insurance. I aggree insurance programs and how they operate can be addressed....
If you make healthcare "free" to all that won;t work......why should I go to work and pay into the healthcare system while another person can stay home not work do nothing and still have the same care as me??....where is the incentive???? so this is a real problem......look no further than the old welfare system so the the abuses
Now corporations are evil ?? ??? ??? give me a break
this is my last post on the subject my point is clear gov't stay out my business I don't need or want your help....
if you can't afford insurance u need to rethink your finanical strategy ..cause don't count on the gov't to fix this issue ever!!
Post by oleander124 on Jul 18, 2007 8:49:22 GMT -5
chicagorooer said:
If you don;t have insurance (sure price issues can be addressed and the insurance system can be modified) then u pay out your ass period.
If u don;t have car insurance and get in a wreck and owe for the rest of your life it's your fault. U as an adult need to make sure u have insurance. I aggree insurance programs and how they operate can be addressed....
Even if you DO have insurance you can still owe out of the ass for healthcare. Not having insurance is not the problem here.
Post by oleander124 on Jul 18, 2007 8:52:26 GMT -5
chicagorooer said:
if you can't afford insurance u need to rethink your finanical strategy ..cause don't count on the gov't to fix this issue ever!!
I work a job that pays decent money and I couldn't afford insurance if I didn't get it through work. Tell all of those moms that work 3 jobs and barely get by that they need to "rethink their financial strategy". I'm sure they would realize their problem has been spending money on toenail polish this whole time.
Post by spookymonster on Jul 18, 2007 9:00:45 GMT -5
And now, for my own personal amusement, Chicagorooer's post, Borkified!:
PIE in zee sky theenking ....nutheeng is beyund zee pruffeet system nutheeng......it tekes cesh und peuple-a need incenteefe-a tu vurk....In muny guf't prugrems iff u dun't spend ell zee $$ thet ves elluceted tu yuoo fur zee yeer zeen u veell get less $$$ zee fullooeeng yeer....thees leeds tu needless spendeeng ...
Iff yuoo dun;t hefe-a insoorunce-a (soore-a preece-a issooes cun be-a eddressed und zee insoorunce-a system cun be-a mudeeffied) zeen u pey oooot yuoor ess pereeud.
Iff u dun;t hefe-a cer insoorunce-a und get in a vreck und oove-a fur zee rest ooff yuoor leeffe-a it's yuoor foolt. U es un edoolt need tu meke-a soore-a u hefe-a insoorunce-a. I eggree-a insoorunce-a prugrems und hoo zeey ooperete-a cun be-a eddressed....
Iff yuoo meke-a heelthcere-a "free-a" tu ell thet vun;t vurk......vhy shuoold I gu tu vurk und pey intu zee heelthcere-a system vheele-a unuzeer persun cun stey hume-a nut vurk du nutheeng und steell hefe-a zee seme-a cere-a es me-a??....vhere-a is zee incenteefe-a???? su thees is a reel prublem......luuk nu foorzeer thun zee oold velffere-a system su zee zee ebooses
if you can't afford insurance u need to rethink your finanical strategy ..cause don't count on the gov't to fix this issue ever!!
I work a job that pays decent money and I couldn't afford insurance if I didn't get it through work. Tell all of those moms that work 3 jobs and barely get by that they need to "rethink their financial strategy". I'm sure they would realize their problem has been spending money on toenail polish this whole time.
Hey - I am one of those moms - not with 3 jobs - but I work one and Boz works 2 jobs and even then - Insurance costs more then $200 per month (I know - I have cheap insurance) and I am STILL in debt with medical bills and they are nothing catastrophic either - most of them are well-child visits and the cost of immunizations (before I wised up and started taking the kids to the health dept for free immunizations
Post by stallion pt. 2 on Jul 18, 2007 12:09:25 GMT -5
Chicagorooer: you are a selfish fucking nitwit and I hope your precious Blue Cross fucks you right in the ass. You cannot be reached. You are the problem. It's people like you and your refusal to have ANY compassion for other human beings that will lead to violent revolution in this country. You cannot be reasoned with, you must be destroyed
"I want every greasy grifter to arm themselves w/ a gun or a knife and station themselves outside the homes of the rich. Shoot or stab them as they come out of their house."
John: We don't even understand our own music Spider: It doesn't, does it matter whether we understand it? At least it'll give us . . . strength John: I know but maybe we could get into it more if we understood it
