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Like we need another political thread but with Roo 300+ days away politics is at least current and relevant so...
The recently released National Intelligence Estimate is being spun by Republicans to show the need for continuing in Iraq because Al Qaida is still a major threat but here's what it REALLY says:
1. Al Qaida is stronger than at 9/11 2. Al Qaida has more members than at 9/11 3. Terrorist attacks worldwide are up 700% from 9/11 4. Al Qaida has more "active cells" than at 9/11 5. Al Qaida has more "operational lieutenants" than at 9/11 6. Al Qaida has re-established its training facilities in Pakistan, a nuclear power, making attacks almost impossible. 7. Al Qaida and US stresses on Pakistan have pushed the country to the brink of civil war (which could easily result in a fundamentalist Islamic NUCLEAR state) 8. US forces in Iraq provide a practical training ground for new terrorist recruits. 9. The main sources of violence in Iraq are (in order of prevalence) the insurgency, sectarian strife, criminality, general anarchy and, lastly, Al Qaida. (Even General Hayden, Director of the CIA, has listed Al Qaida as the fifth most pressing threat in Iraq)
The truth is the Iraqi occupation has been and is a distraction from combatting terrorists and is making us less safe. And Bin Laden and Al Qaida have been and are being ignored and allowed to strengthen their operations.
Don't believe the political hype or the Fox News propoganda.
Post by spookymonster on Jul 18, 2007 10:30:18 GMT -5
Saw something on Good Morning America today... a clip of a Diane Sawyer interview with some Bush administration publicist back in December 2006.... the mouthpiece was going on and on about how much safer we are, how effective the war was in reducing the 'terrorist threat', etc.
Funny how we're all 'safer' when the Republican's are backing Bush's play, and 'in danger' when even they abandon him....
Saw something on Good Morning America today... a clip of a Diane Sawyer interview with some Bush administration publicist back in December 2006.... the mouthpiece was going on and on about how much safer we are, how effective the war was in reducing the 'terrorist threat', etc.
Funny how we're all 'safer' when the Republican's are backing Bush's play, and 'in danger' when even they abandon him....
Cue Chicagorooer....
I can honestly say - I only read all this because I was interested in what troo had to say and in what Spooky's response was.
at this point - I do not know which way to turn. I think Bush has screwed this whole thing up but I feel like we need to finish what we started. How we are supposed to that - I am not sure but I do feel we need to finish what we started which includes finding Osama
p.s. - this will prob be the one and only time you see me in a political thread
They tell us we are safer than before to keep us happy, and then they tell us the threat is higher than before to keep us scared, only to keep us in line, untilthenext time they tell us we are safe, so we see them as the big hero. This is Old, and less and less people remain ignorant, which they arent even noticing. They act like 9/11 was last month, and we are still the shook nation we were.
I watched the press conference yesterday where the whitehouse press correspondent had to squirm all over the fact that they need to keep the fear level high but also act like they are having some sort of success. Well, that's not what SHE said . But it was what she was doing.
She also rattled the saber against IRAN(which has been a push lately-anyone notice?). ANYONE NOTICE ???!! Reminded us that al qaeda is not the only evil force at work against us in Iraq.
Also got her nutz busted on why our policy on Pakistan is so weak and why NOW, the RESURGENCE of Bin Laden as leader of al qaeda when he should have been focus #1 for the last 6+ years.
She gave no answers, obviously. Ignored reporters left and right. Very uncomfortable. Kept referring to "not going to reveal classified information" and fighting spate of terrorism wherever it is in the world.
At least there was some feeling of unrest amongst the media present. Perhaps they are starting to feel the pressure of the sheep waking up
Post by spookymonster on Jul 18, 2007 11:16:48 GMT -5
Our 'best guess' so far is that Osama is somewhere in Pakistan. I guess one way to put a positive spin on the war is that we've successfully kept Iraq and Afghanistan Osama-free for over 5 years!
Everything I've read from the political pundits so far seems to indicate a civil war in Iraq is inevitable no matter how long we stay there. As Troo pointed out, while we're being told this is a war on terrorism (i.e., against Al Qaida), the fact is that the people fighting us could give a fig less about Osama and his cult of personality. The cultural and religious differences among the Iraqi people are just too deeply set, most stretching back across multiple generations.
IMHO, Bush, the Republicans, and the Democrats all know it's a no-win situation. Bush wants to keep the war going until he's out of office (to preserve his historical legacy, or maybe because he's been eating his own dog food too long now). The Democrats want it over before they take office (if they take office) so they won't be accused of losing the war, catering to the enemy, chickening out, etc.
The Republicans are really stuck between a rock and a hard place. Their choices: - threaten Bush with a lame duck presidency, hope he caves in, and then promote their next guy as a 'clean slate' candidate (the best case scenario, believe it or not) - have Bush rebuff their threat, making the party look as disorganized as the Democrats - support Bush and hope they win in 2008 and then find some way to stretch the war out another 4-8 years - hope the Democrats win (!?!?!), they start pulling troops, and all Hell breaks loose (so they can come in and 'clean up' the mess with a sh!t-eating 'I told you so' grin on their face)
Post by chicagorooer on Jul 18, 2007 11:26:16 GMT -5
Now that all the fingers have been pointed. What should we do?? please don't include the phrase "a comprehensive anti-terrorist plan" it's obvious gov'y dems and republicans only care about getting elected and keeping power. SO what should we do? should we go into pakistan?
Yeah, I just don't understand why we let Musharaff do his own thing and don't pressure him more. I mean there's a much larger and more dangerous terrorist network in Pakistan than in Iraq now. And that's saying alot cause Iraq is a huge clusterf*ck. They are pretty much aloud to roam free and do what they want there. Didn't Bush say that we will hunt down the terrorists wherever they are and smoke em out their caves. Well there weren't any in Iraq till we got there, but there were plenty in Pakistan.
All these reports that are coming out were commissioned by the white house as their answer to the Iraq Study Group, but really they same the same thing. We f*cked up royally and it doesn't look good(grossly oversimplified ). I also like how now at the same time General Pace is saying that the troop surge in Iraq is working and they're even talking about sending more troops over there. It's not working. We're just making the insurgents move north or south. When are we gonna wake up and realize that our young men and women are being used as political tools for Bush to try and preserve some sort of legacy. There's no good reason to stay there and Bush knows it. He's just buying time.
EDIT: To answer Chicagorooer. I think we need to get our resources out of Iraq, and put them back into Afghanistan, where they should have been in the first place. And we should tell Musharaff that we're gonna take care of this Pakistani mountainous region if he won't. Maybe we need regime change in Pakistan.
Chicago-perhaps you can get a moderator to add an autosmite function that automatically tags me whenever you log in. It'd be no less transparent than how you do it now !
But I guess with karma like yours, ya might as well, rather than take the time to rebuke what I put forth intelligently.
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2007 11:38:36 GMT -5 by snoochio - Back to Top
What should we do? It sounds like you're conceding defeat CR!
We should:
Withdraw from Iraq to surrounding bases (per Murtha); let the Iraqis fight their inevitable civil war; use air power to ensure no terrorist bases are established; rest and restock our military.
Support forces in Afghanistan; go back to the original strategy of buying allegiance of Northern Alliance leaders; use their forces wherever possible and rebuild the country to regain public support. While we've dramatically hurt the chance we had in Afghanistan, that battle is not yet lost.
Use the Billions of $$$ saved a month to shore up our borders; train enforce border guards; search incoming shipment; buying compatible radios and other communications for first responders; in effect institute the 9/11 commission recommendations.
Try as best as possible to repair damage to our image overseas so as to regain cooperation of friends abroad (Germany and Italy have indicted CIA agents for illegally kidnapping citizen per Bush's instructions so intelligence cooperation is severely hampered); work with Pakistan Govt and tribal leader (including bribes) to stabilize govt and weaken Al Qaida as much as possible.
Regain the moral high ground; treat prisoners as criminals; prosecute and jail the guilty; release the innocent.
Aggressively push for a Palestinian/Israeli peace plan.
Stop antagonizing Iran. Work for a peaceful solution and stop using force as the only solution to problems.
I'll also include balancing the budget, prosecuting war profiteers, re-establishing checks and balances.
Now achieving all these things is probably not possible but the attempts have benefits in themselves. This is how the Britsh dealt successfully with the IRA. Instead of making more terrorists we have a chance of eventually decreasing the animoscity toward the US. We are starting from a very bad position so progress will be slow but there will be progress, unlike Bush's strategy.
Post by spookymonster on Jul 18, 2007 11:54:47 GMT -5
chicagorooer said:
Now that all the fingers have been pointed. What should we do?? please don't include the phrase "a comprehensive anti-terrorist plan" it's obvious gov'y dems and republicans only care about getting elected and keeping power. SO what should we do? should we go into pakistan?
Terrorism has been, and always will be, a part of the human condition. There will always be people that harbor murderous hate (justified or otherwise), just as their will always be crime, corruption, and prejudice. You can never hope to eradicate it, only minimize it's effect so that we, as a species, can survive. Waging some new war on the country-of-the-month because of it's supposed support (real or otherwise) of terrorism only creates more hate.
You do not fight it man by man; you fight it mind by mind. You want to put an end to the provincial thinking in the third world? Educate them. You want them to stop hating us for our gluttony while they go without? Feed them. You want to convince them we're not as decadent and corrupt as they think we are? Stop supporting governments that use their own people as slave labor.
Right Spook. To use a bad analogy, if you're worried about the security of your house, you first secure your house, then befriend the neighbors and lastly you go hunt down the people you're worried about. You can never kill all the criminals.
We as a country have neglected securing our house and have made our neighbors our enemies. So now we decide it's best to shoot anyone who looks suspicious.
I heard it said somewhere that the way to be secure is not to destroy all your enemies. It is to have no enemies. Just a thought.
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2007 12:03:09 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
Post by spookymonster on Jul 18, 2007 12:11:41 GMT -5
Actually, I think that's an excellent analogy, Troo. Someone's broken down our front door, so we started firebombing our neighbors houses, then offered to help them rebuild. Meanwhile, our front door's still a pile of splinters...
Post by strumntheguitar on Jul 18, 2007 12:30:12 GMT -5
troo said:
What should we do? It sounds like you're conceding defeat CR!
We should:
Withdraw from Iraq to surrounding bases (per Murtha); let the Iraqis fight their inevitable civil war; use air power to ensure no terrorist bases are established; rest and restock our military.
Support forces in Afghanistan; go back to the original strategy of buying allegiance of Northern Alliance leaders; use their forces wherever possible and rebuild the country to regain public support. While we've dramatically hurt the chance we had in Afghanistan, that battle is not yet lost.
Use the Billions of $$$ saved a month to shore up our borders; train enforce border guards; search incoming shipment; buying compatible radios and other communications for first responders; in effect institute the 9/11 commission recommendations.
Try as best as possible to repair damage to our image overseas so as to regain cooperation of friends abroad (Germany and Italy have indicted CIA agents for illegally kidnapping citizen per Bush's instructions so intelligence cooperation is severely hampered); work with Pakistan Govt and tribal leader (including bribes) to stabilize govt and weaken Al Qaida as much as possible.
Regain the moral high ground; treat prisoners as criminals; prosecute and jail the guilty; release the innocent.
Aggressively push for a Palestinian/Israeli peace plan.
Stop antagonizing Iran. Work for a peaceful solution and stop using force as the only solution to problems.
I'll also include balancing the budget, prosecuting war profiteers, re-establishing checks and balances.
Now achieving all these things is probably not possible but the attempts have benefits in themselves. This is how the Britsh dealt successfully with the IRA. Instead of making more terrorists we have a chance of eventually decreasing the animoscity toward the US. We are starting from a very bad position so progress will be slow but there will be progress, unlike Bush's strategy.
Post by chicagorooer on Jul 18, 2007 13:13:34 GMT -5
spookymonster said:
chicagorooer said:
Now that all the fingers have been pointed. What should we do?? please don't include the phrase "a comprehensive anti-terrorist plan" it's obvious gov'y dems and republicans only care about getting elected and keeping power. SO what should we do? should we go into pakistan?
Terrorism has been, and always will be, a part of the human condition. There will always be people that harbor murderous hate (justified or otherwise), just as their will always be crime, corruption, and prejudice. You can never hope to eradicate it, only minimize it's effect so that we, as a species, can survive. Waging some new war on the country-of-the-month because of it's supposed support (real or otherwise) of terrorism only creates more hate.
You do not fight it man by man; you fight it mind by mind. You want to put an end to the provincial thinking in the third world? Educate them. You want them to stop hating us for our gluttony while they go without? Feed them. You want to convince them we're not as decadent and corrupt as they think we are? Stop supporting governments that use their own people as slave labor.
so we need to educate the world, feed the world, and consume less and this will solve the issue??...how about also add. treat women as slaves to men, have no due process, worship Allah, don't eat red meat, stop signing the national anthem ...and the list goes on.
terrorist hate us for what we are AMERICANS nothing can change that....that is why they are called radical muslims there is no reasoning with them.
Post by chicagorooer on Jul 18, 2007 13:15:12 GMT -5
snoochio said:
Chicago-perhaps you can get a moderator to add an autosmite function that automatically tags me whenever you log in. It'd be no less transparent than how you do it now !
But I guess with karma like yours, ya might as well, rather than take the time to rebuke what I put forth intelligently.
jason this is like your 10th account...and i never smited u ..
Chicago-perhaps you can get a moderator to add an autosmite function that automatically tags me whenever you log in. It'd be no less transparent than how you do it now !
But I guess with karma like yours, ya might as well, rather than take the time to rebuke what I put forth intelligently.
jason this is like your 10th account...and i never smited u ..
and this^^^^is why I try to avoid these threads - hmmm - wonder if Jason knows you are trying to accuse Snoochio of being him - guess I will get on myspace tonight and ask him
I'd never get elected. I'd end up telling reporters the truth and calling them the idiots they are. Besides my life is too good to screw it up like that.
Though, I could run on the Bonnaroo party. I'd probably get around 80,000 votes.
I suggest casting provisional ballots for Corncat! (He'd probably win Iowa being a cornbelt state)
Nom nom nom
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2007 14:03:46 GMT -5 by troo - Back to Top
if everyone was fed, educated, had medical care, and werent opressed by some corrupt regime that the united states keeps in power for profits i dont think that they would be strapping bombs to themselves or flying planes into buildings. ive never heard a terrorist organization say that they will continue to suicide bomb us because we eat red meat and allow woman to have rights. they attack us because we fuck with them. as far as iraq we should secure the kurdish areas as they have actually helped us and then let the rest of them fight it out. they were better off with saddam then they are with us and our puppet government.
sure there are extremists everywhere. have you been to a wedding lately at a church here in america? woman were made from the rib of man and they must honor and obey man no matter what. screw eve. they need to bring back lilith. most people call themselves christians and belive all the rib crap and know nothing of lilith. christians bomb abortion clinics and federal buildings. and yet we dont label all christians as terrorists. hell we dont even label them as extremists. why do we do it with islam? religion was created for profits and to control the masses of simple minded people who have never had an original thought. and then they use the control and power they have to make laws to oppress all of the free thinking people who see past the bs. and i dont know what your point is about signing the national anthem. ??? i assume you mean singing the pledge of allegiance which should be stopped. we are not 1 nation under god. and noone should be forced to say it at a public school that they pay for. the god stuff wasnt even in the original pledge of allegiance. it was added in by religous extremists. dems or repubs dosent matter. its a one party system and all this nonsense is there to distract us from that fact and all of the evil things our govewrnment does around the world and here at home. i love my country but i am disgusted by our government. its time for a revoloution. and voting in a corrupt one party system is no revoloution. the irs is so over worked as is. i know dozens of people that havent filed or payed txes in years and years and they never come after them, if our elected officials wont cut off fundingfor this ridiculous war in iraq and this crazy war on drugs the we should all quit paying taxes and end it.
to quote franti...
'power to the peaceful!!!!!'
and although im not religious in any way i also like " god is too big for just one religion"
if everyone was fed, educated, had medical care, and werent opressed by some corrupt regime that the united states keeps in power for profits i dont think that they would be strapping bombs to themselves or flying planes into buildings. ive never heard a terrorist organization say that they will continue to suicide bomb us because we eat red meat and allow woman to have rights. they attack us because we f**k with them. as far as iraq we should secure the kurdish areas as they have actually helped us and then let the rest of them fight it out. they were better off with saddam then they are with us and our puppet government.
sure there are extremists everywhere. have you been to a wedding lately at a church here in america? woman were made from the rib of man and they must honor and obey man no matter what. screw eve. they need to bring back lilith. most people call themselves christians and belive all the rib crap and know nothing of lilith. christians bomb abortion clinics and federal buildings. and yet we dont label all christians as terrorists. hell we dont even label them as extremists. why do we do it with islam? religion was created for profits and to control the masses of simple minded people who have never had an original thought. and then they use the control and power they have to make laws to oppress all of the free thinking people who see past the bs. and i dont know what your point is about signing the national anthem. ??? i assume you mean singing the pledge of allegiance which should be stopped. we are not 1 nation under god. and noone should be forced to say it at a public school that they pay for. the god stuff wasnt even in the original pledge of allegiance. it was added in by religous extremists. dems or repubs dosent matter. its a one party system and all this nonsense is there to distract us from that fact and all of the evil things our govewrnment does around the world and here at home. i love my country but i am disgusted by our government. its time for a revoloution. and voting in a corrupt one party system is no revoloution. the irs is so over worked as is. i know dozens of people that havent filed or payed txes in years and years and they never come after them, if our elected officials wont cut off fundingfor this ridiculous war in iraq and this crazy war on drugs the we should all quit paying taxes and end it.
to quote franti...
'power to the peaceful!!!!!'
and although im not religious in any way i also like " god is too big for just one religion"
nobody right, nobody wrong!!!
OMG - I actually agree with most everything there! (that is a first I think!)
