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The opposite of what meatball says and pretty much what Matt says. No. I guess iit comes down to the criteria you are using to distinguish one tier from another. I would think some criteria might be:
1) number of attendees, number of ticket sales, total revenue, production cost, number of bands, number of Grammy winners playing, other awards, performer ratings, cost to attend 2) qualitative factors like results of surveys, repeat attendees, breadth of appeal, location, things to do other than music, weather, arrest reports, camping,
For the southern-eastern region of the country, Bonnaroo is consistently 135,000 attendees, over 100 performers and entertainers, they attract top headliners based on current concert attendance, legacy, other. I live twenty miles from the farm and would rather go to Hangout. I don't like Bonnaroo because it is top tier. Plus the dirt, crowd, most performers, etc. But, to say Bonnaroo is not top tier...nah.
Hey, if you're going to mention me, please tag me. How is this the opposite of anything I've said?
I love discussions like this. Ranking things and/or arranging things in tiers is a favorite pastime of mine.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the best way to determine what is a first tier festival is ticket sales. Last year the inforoo hive mind was convinced ticket sales would be way down and there would be plenty of space in centeroo. Nobody has hard ticket sales numbers but it certainly felt as crowded if not even more crowded than the previous two years.
So we'll just have to wait and see what this year feels like, but I'm willing to bet they'll sell a shitload of tickets and it will be super crowded, regardless of what we all think of the lineup. And as long as Roo sells a shitload of tickets they'll always be one of the "big four" American music festivals, even if the lineups that sell those tickets aren't to the taste of those who have attended and enjoyed bonnaroo in the past.
Keeping this intentionally vague, but in February of last year, a friend in the music industry was approached by Bonnaroo and they essentially told him "we've only sold X tickets (I forget the number now) and we need your help bailing us out."
Maybe Bonnaroo still felt crowded because the difference between 60,000 and 80,000 is hard to distinguish, or maybe Bonnaroo righted the ship, I don't know, but as of February last year Bonnaroo wasn't selling a shitload of tickets.
Post by pondo ROCKS on Jan 20, 2016 13:40:35 GMT -5
While the lineup may not be to some peoples liking, I say Roo is still a top fest. There is an over saturation of festivals but Roo is still one that delivers acts playing till dawn and great collaborations. Never had a bad time at Roo and this year will be the same.
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Post by Delicious Meatball Sub on Jan 20, 2016 13:44:56 GMT -5
Besides, if we're comparing Bonnaroo to other Tier 1 festivals, Coachella and Lolla are instant sell outs every year, Bonnaroo isn't. OSL is the #2 grossing festival in the country, Bonnaroo isn't in the top 10.
I'm glad someone brought up the change in booking focus. That to me says a lot about the future direction of the fest and how confident they feel in their trajectory.
Coachella has never deviated from their brand. It's difficult to articulate exactly what their aim is, but it's mainly as attempting to be the vanguard for collective music taste across genres. Tastemakers across genre and era.
Lolla has never, EVER deviated. They book what the averge 18-22 year old college kid wants to hear. Their audience might age - but the demo does not. It's true for 1995, 2005, or 2015.
Bonnaroo used to be kind of jammy, kind of weird, kind of unpredictable. Now it's looking like a faceless regional fest for a corporate entertainment monolith. But with toilets and vibes.
Even when they were a jammy fest they still booked interesting/truly eclectic/sometimes weird stuff (oysterhead, tortoise, hot chip, praxis, gabby lala, herbie hancock, etc).
The bonnaroo lineup this year has a lot of overlap with Lollapalooza's from last year (at least the more poppy/alt stuff) and enough different genres to keep their "eclectic" tag. It seems like bonnaroo at this point just realizes their "brand" of #vibez and #positivity and as a "milestone event" for college kids is enough to drive ticket sales, and a couple big names up on top will help seal the deal for anyone on the fence. Hence they play up the farm, and peace and love and all that hippy shiz in their social media branding. I guess it makes sense from a business standpoint, until they realize the people who buy the VIP tix and RV passes and Tent City etc... all need more of a paycheck than the average 18-22 year old can afford. Or maybe there are more trust fund kiddos than I think. Either way, if AC wants to get weird they have big ears, I guess. because forecastle lineup quality has taken a serious nosedive the past couple years as well.
Besides, if we're comparing Bonnaroo to other Tier 1 festivals, Coachella and Lolla are instant sell outs every year, Bonnaroo isn't. OSL is the #2 grossing festival in the country, Bonnaroo isn't in the top 10.
I've always thought that location played into this. A lot of people are not as compelled to pay $400 camp in Bumfuck, TN in the middle of June as compared to going to a lakeside park in downtown Chicago. We're a sick bunch.
I love discussions like this. Ranking things and/or arranging things in tiers is a favorite pastime of mine.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the best way to determine what is a first tier festival is ticket sales. Last year the inforoo hive mind was convinced ticket sales would be way down and there would be plenty of space in centeroo. Nobody has hard ticket sales numbers but it certainly felt as crowded if not even more crowded than the previous two years.
So we'll just have to wait and see what this year feels like, but I'm willing to bet they'll sell a shitload of tickets and it will be super crowded, regardless of what we all think of the lineup. And as long as Roo sells a shitload of tickets they'll always be one of the "big four" American music festivals, even if the lineups that sell those tickets aren't to the taste of those who have attended and enjoyed bonnaroo in the past.
Keeping this intentionally vague, but in February of last year, a friend in the music industry was approached by Bonnaroo and they essentially told him "we've only sold X tickets (I forget the number now) and we need your help bailing us out."
Maybe Bonnaroo still felt crowded because the difference between 60,000 and 80,000 is hard to distinguish, or maybe Bonnaroo righted the ship, I don't know, but as of February last year Bonnaroo wasn't selling a shitload of tickets.
If you look at a map it was inevitable. Goldenvoice controls LA and will (one way or another) likely get NY. C3 has Chicago and Texas. The biggest fests are situating next to the biggest population centers. Why travel if you don't need to.
I think doing more specialized fests off the beaten path still works. But a big tent festival in TN that can sell 90k a day? Not sure that you bet on a business like that.
Post by klimfactor on Jan 20, 2016 14:57:50 GMT -5
"This is the way the world ends. This is the way the world ends. This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but Bonnaroo!" That's right, this "second-tier" fest, and it's inforoo-non-approved lineup is going to kick start the appocalypse, with Ellie Goulding on site to sing the end times soundtrack. Vibez!
It's nuts because the bottom of the lineup at least resembles a traditional Roo lineup. Hundred Waters, Kamasi Washington, The Knocks, Daughter, Dungen, Bully, Waxahatchee, etc. Yet the rest of the lineup is so awful.
yup.. these are the bands i expected, like we got with speedy ortiz and the Orwells a few years back.
All I can say is I'm happy that I'm going to Jazz fest this year, both weekends... Was gonna save up for Roo as well, but now will just use that money for something else... Other than the headliners, it's a very weak lineup. But then again, I'm old, I don't think my tastes are in line with what is popular with kids nowadays. That or maybe it really is just is a bunch of subpar acts... I don't know.
I love discussions like this. Ranking things and/or arranging things in tiers is a favorite pastime of mine.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the best way to determine what is a first tier festival is ticket sales. Last year the inforoo hive mind was convinced ticket sales would be way down and there would be plenty of space in centeroo. Nobody has hard ticket sales numbers but it certainly felt as crowded if not even more crowded than the previous two years.
So we'll just have to wait and see what this year feels like, but I'm willing to bet they'll sell a shitload of tickets and it will be super crowded, regardless of what we all think of the lineup. And as long as Roo sells a shitload of tickets they'll always be one of the "big four" American music festivals, even if the lineups that sell those tickets aren't to the taste of those who have attended and enjoyed bonnaroo in the past.
So youre saying number of tickets sold and not revenue, yes? Because Bonnaroo is not near the top for revenue at all. I feel like this forum in particular disagrees with this philosophy whole-heartedly. It's all about a curated festival to them. Like an artist that sells a lot of albums != critical approval.
Not saying I agree with either side here, just poking around.
Besides, if we're comparing Bonnaroo to other Tier 1 festivals, Coachella and Lolla are instant sell outs every year, Bonnaroo isn't. OSL is the #2 grossing festival in the country, Bonnaroo isn't in the top 10.
I love this, actual data! Also checked some of the boxscore reports on billboard.
Ok so question for you. There was an article on forbes (http://fortune.com/2013/07/03/how-music-festivals-make-money/) touches on coachellas profits with advertisers. However, neither of roo or coachella name big stages, and god forbid the hippie crowd outrage when that happened. You just think marketers are more willing to make larger deals, monetary, with coachella? Due to what? Media coverage? Attendance? Just solid salesmen?
I love discussions like this. Ranking things and/or arranging things in tiers is a favorite pastime of mine.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the best way to determine what is a first tier festival is ticket sales. Last year the inforoo hive mind was convinced ticket sales would be way down and there would be plenty of space in centeroo. Nobody has hard ticket sales numbers but it certainly felt as crowded if not even more crowded than the previous two years.
So we'll just have to wait and see what this year feels like, but I'm willing to bet they'll sell a shitload of tickets and it will be super crowded, regardless of what we all think of the lineup. And as long as Roo sells a shitload of tickets they'll always be one of the "big four" American music festivals, even if the lineups that sell those tickets aren't to the taste of those who have attended and enjoyed bonnaroo in the past.
So youre saying number of tickets sold and not revenue, yes? Because Bonnaroo is not near the top for revenue at all. I feel like this forum in particular disagrees with this philosophy whole-heartedly. It's all about a curated festival to them. Like an artist that sells a lot of albums != critical approval.
Not saying I agree with either side here, just poking around.
Yeah I'm talking bodies at the venue, not necessarily revenue.
Unfortunately as was pointed out by Delicious Meatball Sub we don't have hard numbers for attendance at Bonnaroo year over year, or any festival for that matter. My argument was last year "felt" just as crowded as the year before, but we can't determine fluctuations based on how I "feel" about the crowd size.
I feel like this forum in particular disagrees with this philosophy whole-heartedly. It's all about a curated festival to them. Like an artist that sells a lot of albums != critical approval.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Sorry, I just don't understand the point you're trying to make.
I feel like this forum in particular disagrees with this philosophy whole-heartedly. It's all about a curated festival to them. Like an artist that sells a lot of albums != critical approval.
What the fuck are you talking about?
That this forum disagrees that popularity and ticket sales does not mean that the lineup or experience was unique or preferable.
That this forum disagrees that popularity and ticket sales does not mean that the lineup or experience was unique or preferable.
I don't think anyone here said that. I think most people here would agree that while Lolla sold a shit-ton of tickets in 2014, their lineup was far from unique, interesting, or "good".
Post by klimfactor on Jan 20, 2016 16:23:50 GMT -5
Any ticket sales figures should take into account some fests, like Coachella, are spread out over two weekends now, while others, like Bonnaroo and Electric Forest, are not. ...
That this forum disagrees that popularity and ticket sales does not mean that the lineup or experience was unique or preferable.
I don't think anyone here said that. I think most people here would agree that while Lolla sold a shit-ton of tickets in 2014, their lineup was far from unique, interesting, or "good".
Your second sentence was exactly what I meant. If bonnaroo booked only vine and youtube artists next year, but sold the same amount of tickets, would it still be a first tier fest to you.
Given the investment Bonnaroo is making in water, etc., plus community more dependent on their kick-backs, they probably would argue they are first tier. Add in the tickets sold and revenue, size, etc., they are probably first tier. But, there are a lot of festival goers who don't like Bonnaroo for one reason or another. I for one, prefer smaller venues where I can meet and hang with performers even if they are not headliners and hope I get lucky with acts I want to see vice a lot I don't.
Post by heyyitskait on Jan 20, 2016 17:13:07 GMT -5
I think festivals like Shaky Knees popping up in Bonnaroo's backyard are doing some major damage. The fact that there is no crossover between the two and that the smaller, newer festival won out on certain "bigger" acts throws up some flags.
I put bigger in quotes because it's probably relative to each individuals taste (and probably the wrong word for them), but just at a quick glance Roo not getting ATDI, Deftones, Explosions in the Sky, Foals, Silversun Pickups, or Eagles of Death Metal makes me question everything about their booking. How do you not book ONE of those acts?
