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i've never watched her show other than maybe a clip here and there, but i'm aware of it and her general schtick of dancing and being kind and being friends with GWB or whatever.
most of my social media consumption is via reddit, which especially in the popular subs is a hivemind, and people on reddit really, really hate ellen degeneres. i've been somewhat aware of her slow fall from grace over the past few years, but i just read a few timeline articles laying out her various sins that have led to this hate. what i determined is (a) she is certainly privileged and wealthy and has dropped a handful of gaffes as a result, like equating being quarantined to her mansion as like being in prison, (b) she is most likely an asshole at times, and (c) is probably a poor manager of her show, delegating most of the management to her crew who appear to have treated cast and some guests poorly and done a bad job of communication.
these are all perfectly valid reasons to not like a celebrity, but do they warrant the aggressive hatred and pure vitriol tossed at her? not to get all identity politics-y but would she be so hated if she was a man? or straight? or young and conventionally beautiful?
it just seems like i've seen less bombs thrown at actual criminals like weinstein or cosby.
reading over the above maybe my argument is weak, this is has been something i've wanted to discuss for a while and reddit is a terrible place to do so. i'm also likely biased by the fact that she was like, the first lesbian in hollywood, and it took a hell of a lot of courage for her to come out like that. not that that excuses poor behavior, it just seems like the hatred she receives is not proportionate to her sins.
I don’t have strong feelings about Ellen one way or the other. I watched her sitcom some when it was on, and, like you, I remember her coming out and I agree that it was a pretty big deal in a good way. It took courage, and I imagine that it was helpful for some gay folks at the time to see someone do that in such a public and unapologetic way.
I suspect the hate for her, at least for some people on some level, may have something to do with the disconnect between her public persona and her private one. For someone to be in this very public platform espousing a message of being kind and cheerful to turn out to be actually a grumpy person who is not very kind to the everyday people in her life makes it seem like her whole message is a lie and her whole public outlook is fake. I feel sure that, for her, there is actually a lot more nuance than that. I imagine that she believes, at least somewhat, that it is good to be kind to people. But she’s human, and believing that doesn’t always make it easy to practice all day every day. And maybe she’s even less nice than your average human or maybe not, and we just only hear about when she’s shitty. Hard to say really. Regardless, the thing is, the general public is frequently not good at nuance, so I’m guessing that for a lot of people, she says one thing but acts a different way, making her a hypocrite and a liar.
i've never watched her show other than maybe a clip here and there, but i'm aware of it and her general schtick of dancing and being kind and being friends with GWB or whatever.
most of my social media consumption is via reddit, which especially in the popular subs is a hivemind, and people on reddit really, really hate ellen degeneres. i've been somewhat aware of her slow fall from grace over the past few years, but i just read a few timeline articles laying out her various sins that have led to this hate. what i determined is (a) she is certainly privileged and wealthy and has dropped a handful of gaffes as a result, like equating being quarantined to her mansion as like being in prison, (b) she is most likely an asshole at times, and (c) is probably a poor manager of her show, delegating most of the management to her crew who appear to have treated cast and some guests poorly and done a bad job of communication.
these are all perfectly valid reasons to not like a celebrity, but do they warrant the aggressive hatred and pure vitriol tossed at her? not to get all identity politics-y but would she be so hated if she was a man? or straight? or young and conventionally beautiful?
it just seems like i've seen less bombs thrown at actual criminals like weinstein or cosby.
reading over the above maybe my argument is weak, this is has been something i've wanted to discuss for a while and reddit is a terrible place to do so. i'm also likely biased by the fact that she was like, the first lesbian in hollywood, and it took a hell of a lot of courage for her to come out like that. not that that excuses poor behavior, it just seems like the hatred she receives is not proportionate to her sins.
I don’t have strong feelings about Ellen one way or the other. I watched her sitcom some when it was on, and, like you, I remember her coming out and I agree that it was a pretty big deal in a good way. It took courage, and I imagine that it was helpful for some gay folks at the time to see someone do that in such a public and unapologetic way.
I suspect the hate for her, at least for some people on some level, may have something to do with the disconnect between her public persona and her private one. For someone to be in this very public platform espousing a message of being kind and cheerful to turn out to be actually a grumpy person who is not very kind to the everyday people in her life makes it seem like her whole message is a lie and her whole public outlook is fake. I feel sure that, for her, there is actually a lot more nuance than that. I imagine that she believes, at least somewhat, that it is good to be kind to people. But she’s human, and believing that doesn’t always make it easy to practice all day every day. And maybe she’s even less nice than your average human or maybe not, and we just only hear about when she’s shitty. Hard to say really. Regardless, the thing is, the general public is frequently not good at nuance, so I’m guessing that for a lot of people, she says one thing but acts a different way, making her a hypocrite and a liar.
got it, your comment got to the heart of something people really hate: inauthenticity. and that helps me kind of hone down the rambly point i was trying to make, is that there are likely celebs that are just as grumpy or as jerky as ellen but they've done a better job at curating their persona to either (a) better hide that grumpiness or (b) just own that grumpiness so people are less offended by it.
makes me think about letterman. he had his own scandals and certainly was never portrayed as an angel. i remember stories about him being mean or at least cold to his staff. but because his whole deal is he's a snarky asshole that it's easier to just say "well that's just dave!" not suggesting we cancel letterman i love letterman, just using him to illustrate point (b) above. and maybe it's easier to take that route when you are a dude, but i think/hope that is changing.
but i do see what you are saying, ellen made a point to be that kind person and by not being kind herself she opens herself up to accusations of hypocrisy.
Post by itrainmonkeys on May 13, 2021 10:46:35 GMT -5
It's apparently been an industry secret for years that she's a total asshole to people behind the scenes and nowhere near her tv persona of goofy dancing fun aunt.
Before all the specific stories from her show came out I remember reading tons of people in entertainment on Twitter sharing their Ellen story. Apparently it was like a thing where everyone knows someone with an "Ellen story".
I don't hate her or anything but I did always kind of feel that her gimmick schtick was just that.
I think a combination of things like her getting cozy with Bush, the stories from employees, the tone deaf response to the pandemic and acting like your giant mansion was prison, and resurfaced clips that show the persona break down a bit (like the Dakota Johnson interview) all cam together in a perfect storm of anger.
That and the Reddit/Twitter hivemind just tends to aggressively hate (or completely flip flop) various celebrities who have a lot of fame.
Couple years ago everyone making fun of Guy Fieri and now people on Reddit tend to love him. Shits weird how that shifts.
I will say that the Ellen story about her allegedly hiding a few small matches around her house to see how thoroughly her cleaning people were is a bit much and definitely contrasts her "I'm one of you guys" presentation.
I liked her more as a stand up and less as an Oprah copy that pranks people and corny dances.
But like, dont you see the duality of hosting a show that's all about doing well for people, give aways and funny gafs and then behind the scenes being hostile, toxic, racist and financially bad for her own staff. There's a lot more here than her just being a meanie towards her staff.
Edit: that first sentence was perhaps to direct but she comes off as a massive hypocrite.
Last Edit: May 13, 2021 10:51:11 GMT -5 by Bing - Back to Top
Not saying that I think she's an a-hole but for the sake of argument let's assume she is. Is it better that she's an a-hole and acts like it or that she's an a-hole, tries not to act like it, and tells others not to act like it?
Is hypocrisy a cancelable sin in and of itself? Is being an a-hole?
Generally, my take on the situation is that she is a symbol of middle class America where people watch and nod along to her points and that is a symbol that some want to be taken down for that reason alone. Add in misogyny, homophobia, a general right-wing hatred of California's, etc if you'd like.
I don't watch her show but this really seems to be not too different than the daily trending cancelations on Twitter. It just seems like there are plenty of bigger fish to fry.
But like, dont you see the duality of hosting a show that's all about doing well for people, give aways and funny gafs and then behind the scenes being hostile, toxic, racist and financially bad for her own staff. There's a lot more here than her just being a meanie towards her staff.
Edit: that first sentence was perhaps to direct but she comes off as a massive hypocrite.
I didn't see any allegations of racism. Maybe I just missed it. Everything else you say tracks though.
I don't have much to add but I think NBF's breakdown is pretty spot-on. She's probably not a great person but I still find her entertaining, though it's admittedly a little tainted now. Not much different than Pacino or Wahlberg or Downey Jr.
And I do think reddit is incredibly vitriolic towards her. I've traded reddit for TikTok over the past several months and I think it's been for the better. I'm more addicted to TT but the community is far less toxic, if a bit overdramatic.
I think the last line of itrains post nails it in that, she was probably offered the job and dictated to be Oprah.
Colbert stepping into CBS feels similar to her early years, be yourself but also don't!
then the typical person gets too much money/influence and it goes to her head.
I did think she sort of Kevin Spaceyd her response to the show ending, like "it's a contract thing I was already done, I'm not being pushed out" when it feels so obvious that the network absolutely wouldn't renegotiate in current climate, even if she really is just tired/done with the show.
Post by piggy pablo on May 13, 2021 12:38:06 GMT -5
The thing with Ellen was how you'd hear rumblings about how awful she was to staff in a way that usually is protected in Hollywood. I'm sure most of these people aren't particularly nice, but there seems to be some kind of code that they don't usually speak about stuff like that publicly. Comedians would fairly regularly make exceptions to that and allude to her abusive behavior on podcasts, for example. I remember Greg Fitzsimmons, who worked for her, talking about it, and I think Scott Aukerman on Comedy Bang Bang has joked about it. So I always figured it must be pretty bad. That's been going on for like a decade or so, and then more recently it's gotten coverage in the press.
Post by piggy pablo on May 13, 2021 12:42:41 GMT -5
Btw James Corden is also apparently a huge prick, which is discussed pretty openly. At some point he is going to have a similar thing happen to him, I would guess.
Personally, I felt like the good Ellen’s show brought into the world (this idea of being good to others, bringing happiness to the world, giving away gifts and money and prizes to people) far outweighed the need for her private personality to be made public.
Now we all know now that she’s a hypocrite. But at what cost?
Post by itrainmonkeys on May 13, 2021 18:26:02 GMT -5
I thought it was longer ago (i may have read multiple twitter threads about ellen being an asshole) but this is one of the main ones that kind of got the ball rolling IMO. If you click into the replies of the original tweet you'll see a bunch of examples (though who knows how truthful all of them are):
Some of the replies are now buried and newer ones are showing up but this "article" collected some of them when the conversation was still happening:
Again, some of this is just "She was mean to me" but there's definitely also been stories of her being a total asshole boss. Which isn't crazy in hollywood/entertainment but definitely a bit of a surprise considering she'd been america's goofy sweetheart for a while.
I think it's probably just a case of uber-fame and uber-wealth changing a person. She would complain about toilet paper not ripping correctly and now can buy islands.
There's one thing I really don't get and it's probably because I'm not a celebrity/famous but SO MANY famous people seem to push/include the rule that "No eye contact" or "Staff are not to look me in the eye" type of thing. Like, I totally understand if you request that staff at an event or for your show don't go all fanboy/fangirl and stop you when you're walking the halls to tell you how much they like your work and all that but apparently eye contact is a big thing for famous people? Maybe because when they connect with eye contact then people think that's an invitation to talk to them?
There are definitely worse monsters in the entertainment business. Also, I don't think "cancel culture" is really that big of a real thing and Ellen is going to be totally fine. Even if her show ends she can probably lay low for a tiny bit and come back with a multi-million dollar Netflix special deal or sell books or start a sitcom. She'll be fine even if she has to deal with the people below her calling out her shitty behavior.
"Ellen refuses to interact with disabled people." canceling a Make-A-Wish arrangement. That's so shitty it sounds made up.
And that's one of those weird accusations where you want to know....did she specifically mandate this or tell someone to do this? Or was it some staffer who said this just knowing that Ellen wouldn't want it? Either way it's shitty (if true) but it's hard to really tell just how terrible she was or if she had people that enabled her terrible behavior because they knew how to handle/deal with her?
lol a lot of the tweets in that article/tweet thread aren't really that bad. idk real don't meet your heros type thing.
the work environment stuff is obviously different but that goes to what I was sort of saying earlier, if she was ignoring university hosts and chain smoking and not talking to them in 92 she shouldn't have been given a show to be the next Oprah but who turns down am opportunity like that?
